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Timeline: The TEAM MonaVie Experience As Told By Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady… with Various Reality Checks Along the Way

November 21, 2012

Here is a new timeline contrasting TEAM/LIFE rhetoric versus reality. Covering the period of time when TEAM moved to MonaVie up to the launch of LIFE, this timeline looks at quotes made by Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, along with key events for high-level TEAM leaders such as the Hubers, Darkangelos, Cullens, Birtles, and Guzzardos.

Click on the graphic below to view the timeline:

Pay special attention to Orrin Woodward’s praise of the Hubers on June 16, 2008:

Mark and Anna [Huber]…went on to wipe out all of the debt accumulated becoming incredible leaders and servants on the Team. Would this have happened without Mark assaulting his old thinking and replacing with leadership thinking? I don’t think so and neither does Mark.”

— Orrin Woodward, June 16, 2008

Wait a second. Isn’t this the same couple who later declared bankrupcty in October, 2010?

As I mentioned in my initial article, I take no pleasure in revealing these bankrupcties. It is important, however, to highlight the disconnect between what TEAM/LIFE leaders say and what TEAM/LIFE leaders do. What was it again when you say one thing but mean another thing??? The truth, I think not!

Watch how the time between 2008 to August, 2011, is categorized by Orrin as a time of explosive growth for TEAM MonaVie. Next, notice how, shortly before the launch of LIFE, Orrin Woodward’s tune changes dramatically. Remember that period of explosive growth? It’s now been classified as a period of “trials and tribulations.”

Which Orrin Woodward should we believe?

There are two possible conclusions one can come to after viewing TEAM’s History as told by Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady:

  1. Orrin is telling the truth. There were exploding numbers growth and volume, as well as fantastic attitudes and excitement all across the TEAM on an almost monthly basis from 2008 to 2011.

    At the same time, TEAM “toiled in the dark” since 2007 with “no financial reward” and almost went bankrupt as TEAM leaders just “persistently put one foot in front of the other.”

  2. Tens of thousands of people have been deceived. If TEAM’s history is true as told by Orrin, then at the very best his multiple posts from 2008 to 2011 were greatly misleading to those not in his inner circle. As far as we can tell, Orrin didn’t have one public communication prior to late 2011 that would have hinted at the cracks in TEAM’s armor after joining up with MonaVie.

    No new person considering this business would have read about TEAM’s “record-breaking” numbers in their march to one million people and realized TEAM’s leaders were really going bankrupt and losing 2/3 of their income behind the scenes.

So what does all this mean?

If during Orrin’s self proclaimed and constantly trumpeted massive TEAM growth from 2007-2011, top leaders had in reality lost 2/3 of their income, gone bankrupt and foreclosed on their homes and property, then what did Orrin mean when he said TEAM/MonaVie is exploding?

TEAM members can’t talk about money or give actual facts and figures and prospects can’t be provided with W-2’s or other solid proof of income claims (section 3.6.2 of LIFE Policies & Procedures). Everyone is supposed to just believe Orrin and the Policy Council at their word, even though the real “word” may not come out for another 3 or 4 years or more, if ever.

Two final questions:

  1. If you can’t trust Orrin to tell the truth about events as they are happening, can you really believe anything he says now about the LIFE TEAM’s successes or where he believes the business is headed?
  2. If you are going to evaluate joining this business, what are you going to base your analysis on? Will you take Orrin and TEAM leaders’ word for it? Is it possible that they are deceiving you and there is another side to the story?

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the compilation and creation of this timeline. Visit the timeline section on this site to view more timelines.

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93 Comments leave one →
  1. freedomhaha permalink
    November 21, 2012 7:16 am

    Holy smokes. This is outstanding work. Thanks so much for putting this together. Maybe this isn’t the right attitude, but if someone who is on TEAM reads this and can still stay in business with those type of people they deserve to lose money.

  2. November 21, 2012 9:21 am

    @Freedomhaha – when someone is so knee-deep in TEAM, it’s difficult for them to deal with the cognitive dissonance. Some people can see the truth immediately, but others may take weeks, months, even years to realize they’ve been hoodwinked.

  3. freedomhaha permalink
    November 21, 2012 10:02 am

    Amthrax- You are 100% right. I know because I was at that point once. Thankfully when I was presented with the facts I was shaken from my cult like trance that I was put under by the CD’s and other brainwashing strategies. This Thanksgiving I am so thankful that I am not in TEAM. I owe that great freedom to the people that have contributed to this blog. Freedom is amazing 🙂 God Bless!

  4. Former Round Table permalink
    November 21, 2012 2:15 pm

    Amen to that! I too thank God every day that He allowed my eyes to be opened to the lies, hypocrisy, and corruption that makes up every thing about the Team and Orrin Woodward. Amthrax, phenomenal work in putting this all together.

  5. freedomhaha permalink
    November 21, 2012 5:27 pm

    I have no doubt that this timeline will be a blessing to many!

  6. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 21, 2012 6:44 pm

    Blatant hypocrisy! Kudos to the author/creator of this material. Thanks!

  7. CGC permalink
    November 22, 2012 5:51 am

    I like how the future is always rosy and the past is dark, except for the recent past because the last “event” was always the best ever. As this Dilbert comic says, “Flexibility is the key to success.”
    http://www.dilbert.com/2012-11-20/

  8. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 22, 2012 10:04 am

    A Big Thank You to Amthrax and anyone who put this Timeline together, I appreciate your time and effort! 🙂

    Those who have eyes can see!

    Happy Thanksgiving to you all!!

    I am blessed by you and thankful for all of you and your courage!

  9. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 22, 2012 3:49 pm

    Hilarious CGC! I had to bookmark that one. I see you are into directly quoting them now??

  10. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 22, 2012 7:01 pm

    Amazing work, Amthrax. Isn’t it funny how it just gets deeper and deeper?

    Amthrax, you are singing my song with your comment to this post. I was deep, deep, deep into this.

    Freedomhaha….seriously, my team results stunk….always stunk. Not just mine, but the results of my entire team stunk. But we were always lead to believe that there was something wrong with us…not the business. “If a daycare provider and an auto mechanic, as well as a couple school teachers (Hawkins and Militellos) can do it, you can too. You just have to figure out how to do it as a team.”

    I can’t believe that I believed that crap. We tried for four years to do it as a team after leaving Q. If the business opportunity was that great, IT SHOULD NOT TAKE A TEAM!!! One man armed with a first night pack should be able to build it with consistent success. If it REQUIRES a team effort to sell the product, then how good is the product really? What kind of a salesman (yes that’s what you are) needs an entire team to make a sale of simple self development material?

    If the business opportunity is that great, why aren’t more people succeeding?
    Why aren’t there more retirement parties….or any?
    How many retirement parties have you been to?
    What are the results of the leaders you are following?
    What are the results of the leaders they are leading?
    What are the results they’ve been able to lead you into?

    Now take those 8 F’s and break it down this way. There is ONLY one that the Team can exclusively offer you? Finances…period. All the other 7 F’s can be found elsewhere…and less expensively. So if you can find all of the answers elsewhere, like Brady and Woodward did, then the most important reason to join the Team is finances. I go back to the above questions. All the rest is psychobabble designed to keep you in. I want to ask Orrin where the heck the Income Disclosure Statement is that he promised us would come 6 months after LIFE started, and if it’s such a great business and everyone’s making money, why wouldn’t they want to rush that out to the public?

  11. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 22, 2012 7:22 pm

    We were told that we legally had to show the Mona Vie IDS when showing a plan if we talked about income. If that is true that how is LIEF able to operate without one?

  12. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 22, 2012 8:13 pm

    Rascal & Freedomhaha!

    Great Questions!!….Where is the LIEF IDS? Maybe they just don’t have it put together yet? Although we know they collect the “data” all year, and track everything through your paid for EBC, perhaps they are just too busy.

    Rascal, great questions…Why haven’t they broke a PC in how many years, you can’t count Hawkins they “inherited” teams from Billy Florence, right, right, hmm huh right, just like they “inherited” ALL those leaders!

    The worst part of all in anyone’s “team” is:…They are ALL competitors!!…Yes everyone is in competition..there are no protected “territories”….like in real “sale” business…you compete with Your upline & downline and that includes your “upline PC” that is suppose to be your “mentor/coach” …Compete…for your neighbors, co-workers, and yes even Family…. Why? Because PERSONALS count!

    Another thing comes to mind, we know they are really anal about “crosslining” but yet the PC-“crossliners” control the decisions for everyone’s business decisions ? Fair, I think not, nor should they know about “crosslines” business, but they do. It is quite the racket.

    They claim they are the “fairest” in the land..seems like “unfair business practices” to me.

    Couldn’t be more THANKFUL…we are gone!

  13. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 5:00 am

    You would think they would at least fake a PC like in the past in order to trick people into thinking growth was happening. If you attend enough functions you can see plain as day that numbers aren’t going up. Maybe I shouldn’t have given them that idea.

  14. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 5:12 am

    Freedomhaha- It is probably in the works! I remember when the PC had someone in our team “retire” during the 6 month no compete because people needed to “believe”, and yet this guy didn’t hit his goal. of course there was a big party and hoopla and it was blasted throughout the Team by the PC. Funny during that time it said on Team paperwork that TEAM was NOT an income opportunity! So the question….. is how do you retire from your job?

  15. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 5:32 am

    I cannot believe I couldn’t see how deceptive and corrupt all of this was! Holy cow that’s a good example of how thought reform works, I couldn’t even see the truth when it was in writing in front of my face! Another example was when Orrin spoke to us against a judges gag order……I thought he was a hero, now I think…..wow does he really think he’s above the law?…..

  16. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 6:09 am

    Raquel- What an amazing book this would all make. It would be a real human interest story from inside the cult. You would not need to provide any drama because the truth would take care of that. Don’t forget the amazing finish to the book where a group of people that had no shot (us on here) wound up taking down the huge company and savings potentially hundreds of thousands from ruining their lives in this evil money stealing cult.

  17. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 7:58 am

    Freedomhaha….yeah except they like to try to sue people…..remember Scott Larsen?

  18. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 8:06 am

    Rascal- awesome post! Next thing we will be seeing some retirements or recognition, no?
    God knows they have moved so many teams/people around they could create some new fake recognition! Watch for it!

  19. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 8:10 am

    Raquel- I am not familiar with his story.

  20. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 23, 2012 8:24 am

    You know what’s crazy, Raquel? We all knew those questions. I don’t think there is one of us from the bottom of the ranks, through the middle, and up to some of the biggest leaders here who didn’t ask themselves those same questions at some point or another. But as you pointed out, “Holy cow that’s a good example of how thought reform works, I couldn’t even see the truth when it was in writing in front of my face!” Exactly! It was right in front of all of our faces.

    Heck, I had the opportunity to be part of an elite group in the Paul team. Mark took his entire side leg and banded us together….from Warriors all the way through the Tribe. 19 men all got together at Mike Gowen’s house to focus on the taproot. I checked iCal, and the date was Jan 11, 09. I kind of thought it was interesting at that time (according to my journal) that he was banding a bunch of crosslines together, but this was sold as, “this isn’t really crossline, as we’re all in the same MV leg.” But there were 3 different teams present just in what’s now been separated into the Tribe. I have no idea how many of Gowen’s Warrior teams were there.

    Here’s the thought control, and a lot of times, I did it to myself. At the time, I saw this as a fired up way to spur growth at the bottom of the leg. I overlooked the crossline idea, and the fact that we got no growth out of it. Hell, I even overlooked the fact that Gowen or Mark Paul didn’t advance, and they were the top of the leg. All I saw was the glittering, golden calf of depth. Remember Hawkins did it. Militellos did it. What one man can do another can do, and I was just cocky enough to think that I was better than the other 19 men…..if I could only uncover “the secret” to making it work. “Must listen to more Hawkin’s CDs. It’s in there,” says Mark.

    Now I see the banding together as an against the system’s crosssline rules, cowboy, desperate attempt to try to save his business by a man who’s #1 leader on his other leg (Cullen) was 3 months away from bankruptcy.

    @Freedomhaha, do you know if Mark did the same thing on his main leg? (for those who don’t know, Mark’s main leg is the main taproot of the Team. Notables in that leg are Woodward’s, Brady’s, Huber’s, Lewis’, Mark’s, Mark’s, Lewis’, Paul’s, Cullen’s, and Darkangelo’s…..in that order. It’s a biggie!) Brother, I know how I naively rationalized all of this, but how the heck did we not see or hear any of this crap? Both of us were standing at ground zero when the bomb went off. How’d they keep it quiet?

    [Editor’s note: corrected LOS]

  21. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 9:07 am

    Rascal- I don’t think so, but then again my performance was anything but elite in TEAM. I was only around for 10 months, and about half I was not attending/buying anything due to other real world commitments. It is amazing that they keep all of this stuff quiet. Why create so many secrets that any one of them would blow your business to bits? These people are a lot of things, but unintelligent isn’t one of them. It is amazing how many lies permeate this scam.

  22. November 23, 2012 9:44 am

    @Freedomhaha – Scott Larsen is a critic of Amway – http://amquix.info/. From what I understand, here’s what went down between Scott and Orrin:

    Back when Orrin was in Amway, Scott had posted a lot of information about Orrin on his site. Orrin sued him, and ultimately Scott took down most (if not all) of his critical material about Orrin. Later on, when TEAM was suing Amway, Orrin used Scott’s critiques of Amway as evidence that it was a pyramid scheme. I can only imagine what Scott really thinks of Orrin today, having been abused and used by him.

  23. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 9:51 am

    Amthrax- Thanks for the info. I would love to hear what Scott as to say as well.

  24. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 23, 2012 10:08 am

    Probably, “I told ya so!”

  25. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2012 12:23 pm

    @Melanie Morgan, IDS, seriously? I doubt we will ever see an IDS, could you imagine what dissection would occur? An IDS would simply illustrate that the best case scenarios painted by Michael are not even close to reality. Doubt that will ever happen, don’t count on it.

  26. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 1:21 pm

    Brent- Why would Mona Vie have one if they weren’t forced too legally?

  27. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2012 2:29 pm

    @Freedomhaha, to meet legal requirements MLMs are supposed to have an IDS available upon your request, in no way shape or form does that guarantee that it will be easily available for the general public.

    Furthermore, most companies conceal the mathematical reality of their plan by cloaking the IDS in unusually difficult wording. They use words like “active participant” “distributor” or “customer” to skew the data, and make them look legit.

    In the case of Monavie, (and their trying to appear transparent) they offered way more data than is legally required. Their IDS was first used as a bragging point and later became their Achilles tendon as people began to learn to dissever the data.

    I believe that those in charge of Life, will look at this blog, the multiple Facebook pages, and other media spreading the word, and will probably make it very difficult to locate and analyze their IDS. It usually isn’t required until at least after the first year of operation, and if they do not go public with it, it will be hard to find. After all, do you really think they would look forward to something like this happening? Last thing MLMs want is for the truth to be exposed.

    I apologize about the length of this post, just don’t know how many have had the opportunity to see this brilliant analysis.

    “You bet Jose!! Try this on for size: According to Monavie’s last Income Disclosure Statement (June 2009) there were approx. 2,268,721 distributors signed up in MV. Out of these there were ONLY 92,708 distributors that actually got a check for MV. That means that only 4 .08% of distributors got paid. Half of these 92,000 got paid an average of $23 a week! So more than half of the distriburs didn’t even make enough to cover their autoship!
    Out of 2,268,721 distributors only 13,770 made enough money to cover their autoship assuming they bought 1 case a month. What does this number mean? It means that 99.4% of people in MV lost money. (this number is based on the assumption that all 2+ mill were on a 1 case autoship, which they weren’t but if we assume that MV was retaining 50% autoship it still only doubles the number to 1.2% making enough to cover autoship. That’s 98.8% losing money. Let’s convert that number to a reasonable expectation of MV retaining only 30% autoship numbers. You would have 2% making enough to cover a 1 case autoship meaning 98% of people in MV lose money!
    But you say “how is that possible Mike?” This is how: MV paid out approx. $370 million in commissions that year with 53.5 % of those commissions going to the top 2.75% of distributors! Here’s another eye opener for you: $141,675,133 or 37.4% of those commissions went to the top .4%! That’s right, not even 1 half of 1 percent get a huge chunk of the money!!!!
    MV’s IDS is probably the best thing that ever happened to this industry. It’s all there in black and white. This gives one the ability to see what truly going on. You just have to know how to read it and what the numbers really mean. I believe these numbers also reflect what the wealth distribution is in 99% of all the Network Marketing companies in business today.
    You couple these numbers with the fact that U.S. based companies will take their overpriced product into underdeveloped countries like Mexico, Thailand, Philippines, etc. where the per capita income is less than $400 a month and tell these people that this is a viable business opportunity for them and you start to get a very different picture of the people who are running these businesses. This looks like good, old fashioned wealth transfer to me. What do you say?”

  28. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 2:37 pm

    Sad part about an IDS they can manipulate the terms and wording to make them look better.
    Amthrax, I heard Orrin won against Scott Larsen not based on his criticism of Quixtar but on copywrite infringment. Is that true?
    I also believe that Orrin’s Qrush blog STILL contains visciously discusting commentary on guys that included Larsen! Former Orrin to then agree with Larsen and use his words just shows once again what a hypocrite Orrin is! Too bad Larsen didn’t sue Orrin! I can only imagine how discusted I would feel!

    By the way didn’t Orrin say to DeVoss something similar to ” its not the negative lies on the internet that is hurting us, but the negative truth.”

  29. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 2:51 pm

    Brent- didnt see your post lol! That is disturbing!
    I saw Team start calling people CUSTOMERS who were all recruited as distributors and got in to build a bussiness!

  30. No Team For Me permalink
    November 23, 2012 4:03 pm

    Raquel – Yes, that always bothered me when teamscam began calling people customers who had actually been recruited as distributors. If you were to ask all the people at the seminars if they are customers or distributors, they all believe they are distributors. I wish the FTC would dig into that one. My personal opinion is that is blatant fraud intended to mislead investigators. I could be wrong, but that’s my opinion.

  31. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 23, 2012 4:13 pm

    Hey guys, when did they start calling everyone customers? I’m looking at the cover letter that comes with the LIFE startup kit & it definitely makes a distinction.

    In the 4th paragraph, it reads, “it will also be beneficial for you as a LIFE member to familiarize yourself with the 3 for free customer referral program. This exciting program is open to both LIFE members like yourself and also your subscribing customers.”

    We were of the understanding, as that was what was told from stage, that a member has paid their $50 and gotten their kit and LIFE number, and a customer is someone who buys a subscription online thru your number. In order to get paid you need 50 pts of customer volume.

    What the heck does that mean?

  32. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 4:57 pm

    Brent- Thanks for your outstanding work and analysis time and time again.

  33. November 23, 2012 6:42 pm

    Funny- when Orrin Woodward was confronted on the taking of our lesser leg out of our Team profit sharing and Team back office ( before the Directors contract was started, before LIFE and based on a letter) Orrin claimed in an email that HE COULD NOT CONTROL CUSTOMERS when he was referring to the Samuels!
    But isn’t Orrin in charge of the Team office who physically removed the team? Orrin and George Guzzardo approved of not only the Samuels being moved, but allowed the taking of our WHOLE leg that was under the Samuels!!! The approval is documented in emails from the Team office as well as from Orrin himself!!
    This also begs the question who is in charge of Team when a small level distributor can write a letter to have their uplines’ team removed, after interfering in their business and being a part of making it impossible for said upline to build the Team. Then it was given to our upline who also with the Samuels severely interfered in our business, registered people into MV when we had their paperwork and tried to get us to do unethical things to our own downline team mates!! These actions along with the Guzzardo’s orchestrating and Woodward looking the other way, were a part of making it impossible to build the Team business with a clear conscience!
    And WHY were the Samuels (DISTRIBUTORS) being called CUSTOMERS by Orrin Woodward and when he knew a few weeks later they would be in the Team Directors (pay plan) meeting in Columbus Ohio?
    Orrin Woodward also said to us in an email, after removing our team…. “You don’t OWN your customers, who OWNS YOU?” Funny in many years distributors had NEVER been called customers. (Note: Jammie Fisher then told me that Orrin had to change Team profit sharing because it was a pyramid scheme!)

    Now I wonder how many prospects would build this so called business opportunity knowing that the owner of the company himself in writing, claims that distributors have no rights to the community/team they built and also calls them customers when recruiting them to be distributors! Also knowing that he was blatantly a part of stealing (again) from leaders that had invested years of money and time building their teams and had been promised residual income for many years by his system!!
    You would be a fool!!

  34. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 6:48 pm

    I know we won’t ever get it because that would be being transparent, and TEAM is not capable of that, but I would love to see an analysis of the profit sharing pay plan.

  35. November 23, 2012 7:11 pm

    I just looked up my email so I can be very precise in what Orrin Woodward said. After a few emails about why he took our team, among asking for copies of contracts and asking him why he was avoiding answering our questions we said not giving us copies of our contracts, being slandered in meetings, the Samuels letter, being uninvited to profit sharing meetings, and “taking OUR Team customers… speak louder than words”. ( he was calling them customers).

    Orrin Woodward owner of Team replied to us in these EXACT WORDS….

    “OUR team customers? NO ONE owns customers. Who OWNS you?”

    He avoided answering our questions in the emails about profit sharing and go figure…he kept telling us to call him. Of course Orrin wanted nothing in writing and that is exactly why we NEVER called him. We also saw him lie in emails about calling us. He never called us or left a message.

    To call Orrin would’ve been like calling a criminal and expecting him to tell us the truth. We would’ve been idiots to do that after all that they had done to us! Don’t you agree?

    So I guess Orrin needed to start calling distributors customers in Team profit sharing for some reason, perhaps to cover his butt? This was the first time I heard him refer to our distributors or l.o.s. as customers. ( I saw the word customer once in a sign up document for the Team leadership business, back in 07).

  36. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2012 7:22 pm

    It wouldn’t “be like calling a criminal” it would be calling one. If a person steals that much money from other people its illegal. No questions asked.

  37. November 23, 2012 7:34 pm

    In an email after that one, referring to the Samuels and their letter…. Orrin said…. ” You know I do not and cannot control any customer on the team..”

    What a flippin joke of an excuse!! There was a conspiracy by Team leaders, working together to try and cover their tracks of unethical behavior, possibly illegal behavior and to make it legal with their Directors contract for them to steal Team Profit Sharing from their own leaders who were promised residual income and built their communities! When it comes down to it Orrin tried to push off responsibility of what he approved of. Does he think we are that dumb to believe he has NOTHING to do with it all? We all know the directions in Team come from the TOP and come down through the ranks!

  38. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 7:38 pm

    Oh and lets not forget Orrin already had stolen from his own leaders when he dropped ours and others pay from over $10,000 a month to a few thousand after soliciting all of us to leave Quixtar. Anyone that wants to see proof of that can just look at our Facebook page. Pictures of our Team (Signature Management Team) 1099’s are there as well as an article on our monthly Team pay and Team numbers from 2006-2009.

  39. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 23, 2012 8:08 pm

    Amthrax in the interest of educating new prospects on Team I was wondering if you could add the time frame from Orrin’s start in Amway in 1995;; starting his Team tool business in 1999; writing to Doug DeVoss that he couldn’t show prospects catalogs due to pricing (which is what we were taught to do); him focusing Team training on selling tools to distributors and not mentioning Quixtar was the business and Team was supposed to be the training company for our Quixtar business; not teaching much of anything about how to get Quixtar customers; focusing on recruiting and team approach (stacking and later finding out we weren’t supposed to); upline teaching everyone to hit the customer button on our personal Quixar orders; Orrin promoting the Walmart of Internet in his Future of the Internet cd; Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and Team getting kicked out of Quixtar/Amway for bad business building techniques (stacking-of course we had no idea that was against the rules); Orrin then suing the company that was promoted as the supplier Quixtar- for being an illegal pyramid scheme when Quixtar was supposed to be our business!; leaders soliciting other leaders and distributors to write affidavits to their state Attrorney General admitting to hitting the customer button and that that they believed Amway was a pyramid scheme, after years of believing they were building a legitimate business! ; the solicitation of orders for Orrin’s book Launching a Leadership Revolution in fall of 07 to make it a bestseller; Quixtar vs Team lawsuit for stealing the Quixtar line of sponsorship that was lost for reportedly 25 million; the Team Leadership business, going into Monavie, the Forbes article on Orrin Woodward, the article on the 3 million loan Orrin got secretly from Monavie that came out in the Salt Lake Tribune; of course the bankruptcies, Guzzardos default, implementing the new Directors contracts @ Aug of 2009 to stop paying some leaders their promised residual income; leaders in the meeting were told to not promote the Director position into their teams and also that the PC would vote you in and there were no longer any qualifications to get Team profit sharing through a Directors contract; and now the new LIFE mlm with Team tool profit sharing not being disclosed to prospects.

    I really think the videos of Orrin promoting each business as the best would help people see he says whatever fits moment to moment…..it has been one deception after another. Also interesting is he believed Quixtar was an illegal pyramid scheme because of the pricing for years and never told us that fact or quit, he just kept raking in the tool money in his pyramid atop the pyramid in my opinion similar to what Forbes said….. all the while he just kept telling us this was the best business and Quixtar loved us, we were the fastest blah blah blah….keep building the Team community and you will have residual income…… and more companies will want to sell their products to us…..then he steals from his own leaders…..what a champ!

  40. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2012 10:52 pm

    @Freedomhaha, I cannot take credit for the exposé on the MV IDS, it was done by Michael. Honestly, though for all of you who commented above, even with doctored definitions and deceptive catch phrases and categorization of customers/distributors/members, it still doesn’t matter as Mike illustrates above.

    They can define and redefine who their customer base is, and it still ends up with 98% of participants not evening being able to earn enough to cover the cost of a one-case autoship.

    The Monavie ratios is 1/31 and the Life ratio is very similar, it simply doesn’t matter. Top heavy allocation is top heavy allocation. Most participants in both models (95% +) will never earn enough to cover autoship. You can take that to the bank.

  41. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 24, 2012 12:47 am

    Brent and Mike thanks a bunch! Wish I knew that years ago!

  42. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 24, 2012 7:01 am

    Raquel- You are on fire! Thanks for your addition to this blog! I do have a question for you. What would motivate Orrin to do all of the team stealing that took place? Wouldn’t he get the same amount of money because he sits on the top of the pyramid no matter who was below him? It is all going to flow up to him no matter what order it goes through, right?. Thanks!

  43. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 24, 2012 7:37 am

    Freedomhaha- a BIG reason is to create fake recognition and pin levels! Therefore keeping followers believing the business works better and faster than it really does. Then those followers keep spending their money and time building under Orrin! Very deceptive hey! I know George Guzzardo tried to convince the Rodmans( I believe platnum when leaving Quixtar) to steal their downline Brost’s second team ( who were also Platnum in Quixtar) going into MV so the Rodmans could go Ruby! Good thing they said NO!

    The other reason to steal teams and move them around is to steal money from the people he feels are not loyal to the group and give raises and praises to his favorites. Some are more corruptible than others. Not this chick!

  44. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 24, 2012 7:47 am

    So he puts these teams where it benefits him/his lead leaders the most and doesnt make it known publicly they got a special deal the new guy will never get! Of course Orrin makes up great sounding excuses why he did it when the truth finally comes out and unsuspecting members find out.. For instance if they need more numbers of people on system in their third leg in team profit sharing, they could put another leaders group where they needed it and count it for say triple 100 in Team. Some were given teams in Team back office and/or some had their teams taken/moved out from under them in MV. These actions directly stole profit from the people that deserved it!

  45. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 24, 2012 7:51 am

    Orrin and company have stolen from the very people who invested their precious time and money building the Team community!

  46. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 24, 2012 8:01 am

    @Freedomhaha

    To the best of my knowledge. Orrin was also trying to rearrange the LOS, so the court wouldn’t recognize it as Amway’s. Amway was claiming that we IBOs were there’s, and Orrin was stealing us from them. We all resigned at the same time. It wasn’t very difficult to figure out. The question was, who did we belong to. The judge said we were Amway’s, and awarded them a $25 million settlement. Hey….did Orrin in essence, but us?

    You know, we were told we won that case and were free from Q. We were never told Amway got awarded the settlement, and we never had a reason to verify that.

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong of that. I have no idea what’s truth from fiction anymore….lol

  47. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 24, 2012 8:03 am

    That was BUY not BUT. What an autocorrect typo 😦

  48. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 24, 2012 10:26 am

    Rascal and Raquel- Thanks for the explanation about moving around the LOS. It makes sense completely when it is put that way. I wonder if picking all new “buzzwords” when moving into a new company is part of the same deal. When they created LIEF you could now end up and a lot of different levels, so they could claim they broke new people at that level when in reality it is just the same people from AMWAY!!

  49. November 24, 2012 1:15 pm

    @Raquel – Yes, Scott had posted some audio clips from Orrin, and that was one reason for the lawsuit.

  50. November 24, 2012 1:18 pm

    If you have exact dates and some kind of proof (website, YouTube video, email, etc.) for these events, I can add them to the timeline.

  51. Mike Collins permalink
    November 24, 2012 1:53 pm

    This timeline is incredible. Whoever took the time to put this together obviously put a lot of thought and work into it. Great job!

    This timeline is a good look at how most of these leaders operate of you stick around them long enough. The contradictions are endless

  52. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 24, 2012 4:25 pm

    Amthrax- if there are five witnesses that confirm something, can that count ?. You know Team hides a lot of things and i believe they purposely do not putting things in writing. I mean hey look at Orrin during the Q lawsuits! For instance we were all told to resign from our Quixtar business in a whisper campaign by our uplines. . I dont think I have that in writing but many could confirm it.

  53. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2012 7:13 am

    Well that’s how it happened for us. Never anything solid in writing. It was done over the phone with us, but someone at the lower levels might have sent an email to someone about the fact that, “we’re all leaving….call for details.”

  54. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2012 7:26 am

    I want to add to that last post.

    That was the exact wording I got in the phone. “We’re all leaving!”

    I didn’t think about it. I didn’t hesitate. I just replied, “what do I say in the email?”

    The cult mindset is that I’m not in a business. I’m in a battle. Claude has called it, “a romantic battle.” That’s a perfect description, and they breathed it into existence. We were all soldiers. A band of brothers.

    I’m prior military. It was easy for me to shut up and follow the orders and direction if my commander. The general said we were all moving out, and we did.

    I wrote the email while I was still on the phone. Had I been of the mindset that this was a business, I’d have asked more questions and wanted to see some legal stuff on what we’re doing and the ramifications of such a move.

    This is far, far, far from just a business.

  55. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 7:38 am

    Rascal- great post!

  56. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 7:42 am

    Did you see Orrin is giving history leasons AGAIN! Sending messages to his troops……LOL!
    So glad I am no longer a soldier for the TEAM!

  57. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2012 7:48 am

    Ya know Raquel, I think that’s it. That’s the power oif this organization. It’s not just a business. It’s not just a cult. It’s more military than that.

    It has a battle to fight. It has ranks and advancement. The better a soldier you are, the faster you advance. Etc…..Holy Moly….epiphany! I can’t tell you how many times Tim Marks called Orrin General Woodward, but I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count that high.

    Imagine for a minute the Salvation Army turned evil and self serving at the top with all the workers believing they are doing good, and you have exactly what Team is and why they are more dangerous than a mere religious cult.

  58. freedomhaha permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:06 am

    “This is far, far, far from just a business.”

    Yeeeeeeeeeeep.

  59. freedomhaha permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:15 am

    Just read the comment section on Orrin’s blog post. Yikes. The quote that really got me was the “no special deals” culture. Followed by someone talking about the “first 1,000 PC members”. I don’t even know where I begin with this foolishness.

  60. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:17 am

    Very good analogy! I know I have leaders below me that have made me out to be the enemy and yet they saw much of what happened to us! They haven’t seen the documentation we have….because they DO NOT WANT to see the Truth! If they faced it then THEY would have to make a choice.They look so brainwashed.
    This is why they want me to shut up as thousands of people saw us in Wisconsin and know we are honest and what they saw with their own eyes matches with whatvI have told in my story!
    There are some who have read this site and know its the truth and still stay! Those people I feel no sympathy for!

  61. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:20 am

    No special deals? …..lmao!
    Funny how we are running Orrins life by telling the truth! He is reacting. This is getting quite comical!

  62. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:20 am

    It feels so good to clear my name!

  63. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:23 am

    Rascal- your analogy os so amazing…..thatvis what it felt like you believed for years you were doing so much good and then realize you have been working for evil empire wrapped in angels clothes! It is like getting sucker punched from behind and being dropped to your knees!

  64. freedomhaha permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:39 am

    Raquel- It is like getting sucker punched from the front by people that know you the best. Makes me sick that not only was I scammed into this business, but I was scammed into this by the very people that I thought wanted the best for me.

  65. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:47 am

    Hey Freedom, I think the most telling thing from Orrin’s Blog post is that it’s been up for over 24 hrs, and it only has 8 responses. The only names you recognize are Harteis and Miller.

    Where’s the PC? Where’s the Roundtables? You can’t tell me they don’t get automatic updates when Orrin posts. The leaders are getting burned out with the online blogging. If they don’t keep blogging, we’re the only online voice. If O says, “blog more,” he’s gonna burn ’em all out….probably already has.

    Go ahead Orrin, suggest they all respond to your blog. You know you have to make that play, but you also are smart enough to realize the price you’ll pay. Yup, on this subject, I’m just as smart as Orrin 😉

  66. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:48 am

    They justify everything they do into a positive. Many are decieved.

  67. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:58 am

    Orrin will REACT. I wonder why he is so worried about little ole us?
    We dont have influence right?
    We are losers, quitters, non acheivers, we didnt do the work….we are the death gargle of a non-acheiver!

  68. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 25, 2012 8:59 am

    They really are negative! Jeez……

  69. freedomhaha permalink
    November 25, 2012 10:26 am

    Rascal- Interesting to think that he is weighing down his leaders. I can’t imagine having to respond to his blogs on top of reading and listening. Not to mention speaking, showing the plan, and “pounding the pavement”. I dare someone to come on here and try to tell me this isn’t another full time job in the best case scenario.

  70. Mike Collins permalink
    November 26, 2012 7:48 pm

    Orrin, you are deceiving God’s people and you will be held accountable……

    Did you hear me Orrin? That goes for you as well Chris…and you Joe……and you Eric…..

  71. freedomhaha permalink
    November 27, 2012 4:59 am

    Mike- The top leaders would never read this blog 😉

  72. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 27, 2012 5:40 am

    I bet Orrin has a direct feed with an alarm to his phone! Lol!
    It is such a cult….. in my opinion…
    Can you imagine your local optimist club gaming google?

  73. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 27, 2012 5:48 am

    I heard now on the Team side they have to buy $300 at Turbo 10( 2 teams of 10) or $600 at turbo 25 to then POSSIBLY get voted into the Director position by their PC ( their competitor) on the Team side! I believe that is monthly. Now if this is true could requiring purchases like that be illegal? I also heard that if one is a Round Table member they can move teams around!

  74. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 27, 2012 5:50 am

    Now I ask WHY would anyone invest into this when AGAIN there is no respect dor the Line Of Sponsorhip!

  75. freedomhaha permalink
    November 27, 2012 6:47 am

    Or the fact that 96% of the people they show the plan to will LOSE money IF the best case scenario happens. I don’t know if I can let someone off the hook after seeing those facts.

  76. AlmostIn permalink
    November 27, 2012 7:26 am

    From the outside looking in, I see: they convince you that in order to succeed in the business you need to purchase, attend, and listen to the people above you that have become what you are trying to achieve. If you do this, you, also, will achieve what they have achieved. The longer they can convince you that these are the things you need to get there, the more of your money they succeed in taking for themselves and doing it by any means they deem necessary. By gaining your trust in their humanitarian ways, they slowly change their agenda (slow enough that you don’t realize that something else is happening–gaslighting) and when they feel that you have accepted this way, they feel more comfortable in revealing more of their true agenda. But, if you won’t go along with their true agenda,then you are free to walk away with the belief that you are a failure and they don’t owe you anything for your downfall that you, yourself caused. The scam in this is to get as much of what they can from you before you realize what has happened. You help them line up the sheep and they just go down the line fleecing the next one. They don’t care that you have become incensed at what they are doing because there are plenty more of you lined up to rinse and repeat.
    Of course they don’t like this site because you bring forth information that they don’t want out of the bag–they won’t get as many sheep as they were anticipating being brought into the flock (1 million) and having the wool pulled over their eyes. This site foils their game plan somewhat or puts a bad taste in their mouth and they want to flush it out.
    It can be so obvious if in your past you were ever involved in someone else’s game plan being played out to see that team/Life is a scam. For all others who have not been exposed to something like this they might not be skeptical enough to realize that “not all that glitters is god”.

  77. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 27, 2012 7:50 am

    AlmostIn, you got it! Very nicely said. That quote should go at the top of the Blog, as it’s the overlying principle in this and every other cult deal.

    It’s like donating time and used goods to Goodwill for years believing you are making a difference only to find out later, the owner makes a couple million a year and $0 goes to charity…..or the EVIL Salvation Army (I need a better name. This one’s insulting to a really great organization).

  78. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 27, 2012 10:01 am

    AlmostIn~

    Excellent and precise! Thank You! 🙂

    Has anyone else noticed that they despise the “critics”..(this site) and others..will go to the ends of the earth (even sue) to try and keep the “cat-in-the-bag”… yet they are the biggest “critic” of the “critics?”….They criticize everything..outside of themselves! A-mazing..the hypocrisy and what they will do to try and keep their secrets.

  79. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 27, 2012 10:03 am

    Since they “hate” the internet critics, does this mean they are ” internet haters?”

  80. Fed Up with Bs MLM's permalink
    March 5, 2013 9:18 am

    orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are the 2 biggest jokes in America… They should have stuck to engineering what phony balognas… this is coming from a 17 year old kid who was played like a fiddle by some of Chris bradys downline… LIFE is anything but a way to make money… i had 10 and 5 in my first month made 28 bucks hows that possible fucking bastards

  81. Fed Up with Bs MLM's permalink
    March 5, 2013 9:22 am

    and that wasnt 28 dollars profit i actually lost about 80 bucks and i busted my ass… original start up fee is 83.99 your first month with tax like 98.something… im still amazed at how i only maid 28.bucks off 15 people spending 98…. tell me that the people at the top arent seeing major cash flow…. and also the book that i paid basicly 100 for is 1.99 at barnes and noble… feel free to email me someone needs to file a civil RICO case on this BS

  82. Fed Up with Bs MLM's permalink
    March 5, 2013 9:26 am

    raquel peters the FTC says that product loading is a sign of a pyramid scheme however they do have a product so they cant be hit by that but they can by a RICO suit

  83. freedomhaha permalink
    March 5, 2013 11:48 am

    Honest question: Don’t you have to be 18 to sign up?

  84. MiniatureGiantSpaceHampster permalink
    March 5, 2013 12:01 pm

    @freedomhaha: That was my understanding.

  85. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 5, 2013 12:20 pm

    I was of the understanding that it was 18 for Monavie and 17 in LIFE….just like it was in Q.

    I had a 17 yr old in my Q downline. There was some question about that sliding into MV if that would be allowed. As far as I know, he turned 18 before the MV launch.

    fed us with BS MLMs & Miniaturegiantspacehampster…..welcome to the party — where cross lining just makes for a much better story.

  86. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 5, 2013 12:24 pm

    @Fed up with BS MLMs,

    Sorry about the mix up with your name in my last post, although, “Fed us with BS” would better describe my Team experience.

  87. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 5, 2013 12:50 pm

    Fed Up with Bs MLM’s~

    I agree with you on what you say, understand your anger and frustrating. I can totally empathize with your comments. Feel free to send me a private email message through my Facebook.

    ***Check out these youtube video’s:http://www.youtube.com/exposingmlm

    By Mike Collins on the LIFE Compensation Plan…it wasn’t until this, did I “get it”!!!….It is just too bad it was years after we were gone before I “got-it” and then I was ashamed and hurt knowing all those people we brought in, were destined to FAIL!!!

    Based on our experience It takes years of FULLY “all-in” and building & replacing thousands and thousands of people who unfortunately continue to incur LOSES and then naturally QUIT when they realize the reality or what you personally are seeing. From strictly a “profit” standpoint, it wasn’t worth it, and will not go into the real reason’s it wasn’t worth it!

    They might feed you some line of BS that they were just naive enough to “Believe” they could “make it” or “get their dreams” …BUT if ALL the facts and truth on “how they make it
    ” were know, there is zero “naivety” involved from the PC standpoint!

    I have seen it said; Where “YOU are the Product”, by someone presenting the LIFE Business, So here’s my question: How then do you “sell>that product>”YOU?” Do YOU have to run around saying “look @ me”…you too can LOSE money like I do, you don’t want to miss out on YOU? LOL

    Here is a good article from the FTC, I believe you will be interestd in >http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm

  88. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 5, 2013 1:08 pm

    Rascal, hahaha!

    I too believe in Amway and MV, you HAD to be 18? What is the law,.. does anyone know? or is it at the discretion of LIFE; making those rules (discretion= the enemy of duplication) and or liability of each company?

    For example: You can work at 15 years old and maybe younger in some states?.., such as a bus-boy but there are certainly child labor laws to protect them.

  89. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 5, 2013 1:39 pm

    Melanie,

    I’ve always understood that it has less to do with child labor laws and more to do with how old you have to be to accept legal responsibility for a business. I don’t think you can sue a juvenile?

    Generally, you are an adult in the eyes of the court at 17, so that is typically held as the age of being able to own a business. They have to make it 17, as some people are out of school at 17.

    I think the age of 18 is used to “play it safe.”

  90. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 5, 2013 2:01 pm

    Rascal~

    That would make sense.Thanks.

  91. freedomhaha permalink
    March 5, 2013 3:21 pm

    Thanks for clearing that up guys. I did not mean the question to try and take down another member, but I was curious.

  92. Felidae permalink
    May 28, 2013 12:01 am

    On your Orrin Woodward timeline (which is awesome, by the way) your slide for date: April 23, 2011 has a significant typographical error. It should read “Best growth since 2003” instead of “Best growth in 2003.”

    Just a friendly heads up.

  93. May 29, 2013 5:55 am

    @Felidae – Thanks for the catch. I updated the slide.

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