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Orrin Qrush: The Many Blogs of Orrin Woodward – Part One

August 16, 2011

Update August 18, 2011: Orrin Woodward responds on his blog. Read below!

Orrin posted on his site that he’s moving his blog over to in light of Blogharbor’s imminent shutdown of its blogging service. At least Orrin Woodward and I agree on one thing. We both use WordPress as our blogging software!

His new blog is at: What’s with the number 1 in the URL? Was already taken? This got me to thinking how many blogs does Orrin have? Let’s count them up:

1. Orrin’s Many Mirror Blogs

  1. Orrin Woodward Leadership ( His “new” home on the Internet.
  2. Orrin Woodward Leadership Team :: MonaVie – The Beginning of Making the Vision a Reality ( His current blog that will be going away in October.
  3. TEAM Orrin Woodward ( Looks like a mirror blog.
  4. Orrin Woodward Articles ( Another mirror blog with just a few posts.
  5. Orrin Woodwards Recent Posts ( Another mirror blog. Are we seeing a pattern here?
  6. Team Orrin Woodward ( Most of the recent blog posts have been written by George Guzzardo.
  7. Orrin Woodward ( Another mirror blog under the Articles link in the main navigation bar.
  8. Orrin Woodward Press: A fair and balanced commentary on the many endeavors of Internet Entrepreneur Orrin Woodward ( The blog posts have the byline of Matt Franks, with the occasional cross-posting of Orrin’s posts from his various mirror sites.
  9. Orrin Woodward Team Resources ( Captain Bill’s blog that basically regurgitate’s Orrin’s posts. Captain Bill has his own blog here.
  10. Team Orrin Woodward – Dan Hawkins ( This is a mirror blog to Dan Hawkin’s own website.

Good lord, did I miss any?1

It’s one thing to register multiple domain names that all redirect to a single domain, but this… this looks like a case of spamdexing, which is “a deliberate manipulation of search engine indexes.” Here, Orrin has been engaging in setting up dozens of “mirror websites” with similar or identical web content.

I’ve seen this twice before in the Amway/Quixtar world. The first was back in 2004, when Amway/Quixtar was punished for Google bombing. Read Scott’s article and the old Quixtar Blog to connect the dots. Guess which group was behind these anonymous blogs? You got it… many were a part of TEAM (or Team of Destiny, as it may have been called back then). Replace Amway/Quixtar with Orrin Woodward, and you have the same thing happening for the “Top 10 Leadership Guru.”

2. On Anonymous Blogs

The second time I’ve seen this happen was in 2007, when a flurry of anti-Quixtar websites appeared around the time of TEAM’s explusion.

Some Ex-TEAM members on this blog have stated that it was Orrin himself who promoted the creation of these anonymous anti-Quixtar blogs. The lawsuit by Quixtar against the 20+ anonymous bloggers made it clear that most if not all of the bloggers were members of TEAM.

It’s obvious that TEAM is a top-down organization. Information flows from the top of the organizational pyramid down to the distributors at the bottom. Chris Brady, fellow rascal compatriot of Orrin Woodward, is fond of Apple CEO Steve Jobs. He and Orrin should pay close attention to this quote from Jobs:

Isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top?

But wait a minute, isn’t Orrin against anonymous blogs? How can you explain the fact that TEAM was instrumental in two instances of mass anonymous blogs when its leader is so publicly against this? As the leader of TEAM, is Orrin responsible in any way for the conduct of his members? Or, is Orrin a hypocrite?

3. Qrush’ing the Competition

Some Ex-TEAM members have hinted in my comments that Orrin may have had an anonymous blog himself. Before we get to that, let’s go back in time to review three facts:

a. The Google bombing of positive Amway/Quixtar websites in 2004 was precipitated by Dateline’s expose on the corporation in the same year. Many of Orrin’s TEAM members were involved with these blogs.

b. was set up at the end of 2003. Many of the Orrin mirror sites were set up between 2004-2006.

c. During this time, there was a pro-Amway, anti-critic website called Quixtar Qrush(ing) Bo Short, Scott Larsen & Qblog2. From the blog description:

About Me (Quixtar Qrush)
I am Quixtar Qrush & I entered the field of blogging to expose the disgusting, deceptive, & deceitful behavior of Bo Short & his minions. Qrush believes in free enterprise and competition, but not parasite marketing. Bo Short’s behavior is a disgrace to the whole MLM industry and Qrush will expose the MLM Bad Boy. Bo Short, Scott Larsen and Qblog will be exposed for the fraud they perpetrated against Quixtar. Qrush will exit the field of blogging when my crusade is over. Wherever there is untruth, injustice, & parasite marketing look for Quixtar Qrush to clean it up.

Qrush further describes himself as:

… a cross between Rush Limbaugh and Rich Devos and I am a conservative on a mission. My mission is to expose the left wing conspiracy plot to overthrow the Quixtar business. While it is laughable that the left could have the brains to do so a couple of internet savvy and business dunces have attempted the impossible. A man with the facts is never at the mercy of men with opinions. So stay tuned as I Qrush the imcompetent critics and expose their games and deceit. Go Team Quixtar. Qrush over and out.

The blog contained highly vitriolic attacks against Quixtar critics of the day, including Scott Larsen of, former Diamond Bo Short, and Ty Tribble, the author behind

Qrush disappeared from the scene in mid-2006. And, while there were hints of a possible connection between Qrush and Orrin Woodward back then, Qrush’s identity had never been revealed. Recently, however, I’ve received a couple of emails from ex-TEAM members with a startling claim:

Orrin Woodward is Qrush!

Pretty big accusation, and potentially damning if it’s true. Let’s analyze.

In one of his first posts, Qrush said this:

A man with the facts is never at the mercy of men with opinions.

and Orrin Woodward once wrote:

Like the old saying goes, “A person with the facts is never at the mercy of a person with an opinion.”

Is Qrush quoting Orrin Woodward, is Orrin Woodward quoting Qrush, or are they the same person?

Here is an example which seems to indicate that Qrush and Orrin are two different people.

Qrush was highly critical of Ty Tribble in his posts:

Qrush thinks Ty should find another mentor other than Bo Short. Try taking advice for a change from someone with some past success. In the meantime Qrush will offer these jobs that Qrush believes Ty is currently qualified to do.

1. Domino’s pizza delivery boy. Even your friend Brian Johnson, a.k.a. MLMDoJo, wasn’t too proud to deliver pizzas after his Passport debacle.

2. Starbucks counter helper. There are lots of Starbucks in your home state of Washington and Qrush says, “If a high school student can handle the job, you can too Ty.”

3. Find another failing company like you did with Passport and become their C.E.O. patsy so they have someone to blame when they close the doors. You have experience in this area and they will probably let you work out of the house.

On the other hand, Orrin Woodward was at one point highly complementary of Ty.

Ty, I have enjoyed your articles and believe you are one of the most experienced people in the MLM field. You have studied the companies and have benchmarked the best in different areas. When I look for news in the MLM area I come to your site. thanks, Orrin (Woodward)

There are two possible conclusions we can draw from this:

  1. Orrin and Qrush are two different people. Case closed.
  2. Orrin is Qrush and therefore is a two-faced charlatan and hypocrite.

Update August 18, 2011: Orrin Woodward has a new post in which he alludes to the anonymous blogging claims made against him at TEAM. Here is a short excerpt (bold emphasis mine):

When I was younger and naive, I was befriended by several “legends” in my old network marketing company. Since my business was the fastest growing in North America, I was exposed to the society of “Haters” early. People who didn’t know me, but with an axe to grind against Network Marketing, shot at me. In my inexperience, I took it personally, not professionally, wanting to fight back. However, the company’s rules, at the time, forbid any online discussions from distributors, so my hands were tied. When a person on my team started an anonymous blog, I realized this was the only way to get our side of the facts out. I didn’t start the blog, but I did contribute content. In fact, many of the board members, of which I was not a part of at the time, provided facts, figures, and later gossip that I passed on. For this, I am sorry. This was not helping my cause, but only hurting my attitude. Later, I requested for the blog shut to be down. It stopped posting, but for whatever reason the blogger refused to take down the content. In late 2005, I made a commitment not to fight back against critics, but instead, let the truth be my first, last, and only defense. I heard a beautiful quote that exemplifies this principle, “Don’t criticize the old, but just create the new.” LIFE is not about criticizing the old, merely focused on creating the new.

One big question from this post:

  1. What about the anonymous smear campaign against Amway/Quixtar in 2007-2008? Who instigated that?

Update August 19, 2011: Orrin Woodward wrote he started taking the high road in late 2005. Yet, here is a post made by Orrin Woodward about then IBOAI President Fred Harteis in November, 2004 (bold emphasis mine):

Fred Harteis has always been a personal favorite speaker of mine. Many times it was Fred’s talk that recharged my desire to win. Very few speakers have the intensity and belief that Fred does. Fred teaches men to be men again and not just whiners. You will never see Fred tearing down someone else to make himself look better. He said once, “It takes no talent to tear down a building, but it takes a special craftsman to build the Sistine Chapel.” What I love about the diamonds is their desire to improve themselves without criticizing others. My dad taught me a long time ago that when you start slinging mud, all you do is dig yourself in a hole. Fred has repeatedly said he will discuss ideas with anyone, but never assassinate someone’s character. That is why I respect Fred Harteis so much and am proud to be part of the IBOAI team with Fred as the leader. Remember if you have a great business then talk about your business, but never run down the competition, that is classless and in poor taste. Winning isn’t everything if you sacrifice character to achieve it. God Bless you on your journey.

This quote has been cross-posted to several other websites on the Internet. Here is a screenshot from Orrin’s old blog:

I don’t know about you, but something doesn’t add up here! Caught in a lie? Is Orrin Qrush? You decide by contributing to the poll and discussion below!

1 I also found several websites whose domains or content seems to have expired. And of course, there’s his Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Myspace pages.

2 It will be interesting to see if Qrush’s website suddenly “disappears” in the coming days and weeks. No worries, an archive of the site has already been made.

471 Comments leave one →
  1. John permalink
    August 16, 2011 6:44 am

    If Orrin Woodward is Qrush who defended Amway and then sued Amway when he wanted to leave them, what a hypocrite! He knew all along that Amway, Quixtar did not work. But defended it, not because it was the right thing to do but because it was the right thing to do to protect his profits and all the money he was making from scamming people in his corrupt and illegal business.

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 8:17 am

    I agree with John. This really makes me sick! Orrin, KNEW all along, as John said and promoted that business to THOUSANDS by saying it was the “BEST BUSINESS BAR NONE”; KEEP BUILDING NUMBERS, knowing he was LYING to them, padding his pockets and didn’t even believe it Himself! I have never know a more GREEDY, sick individual in my life, and it would appear he has a split personality.

    How could his followers trust a word that comes out of his mouth? Would the PC know this and still follow? What could his worshippers say about this? Ethic’s? We figured out a long time ago, through experience, he cannot be trusted, lies, and deceives but this would be the icing on the cake!

    This would not surprise me a bit knowing what we know about Orrin’s true character, what he says and what he does is polar opposite and how he slanders people (the leaders that built his team) behind their backs.

    This would be HYPOCRISY on steriods; on so many levels! He bashes Anonymous Bloggers, Nameless, Faceless, Cowards? Tearing people down? Taking the High Road? Google bombing? Christian?

    What about John Mawell’s advice to him; Always, Always, Always take the high road, that he will never forget that pearl of wisdom? May not forget it but sure doesn’t apply it! What would John Mawell say, after reading a blog like that about the Leadership guru? Orrin is not a leader, he is a manipulator, we already knew this!

    It would also be a true testament to Orrin’s Character (that we already knew was corrupt and evil in my opinion); but he wants people to believe and has every single person that speaks on and off stage edify his character as it is pure and white as snow, and if they don’t he is berating them. Unbelievable.

    I have read some of the Qrush posts and am totally appalled and discusted, talk about ripping people down and the HATE shown towards Ty, Bo and Scott Larsen. We already knew he didn’t like Bo and sued Scott Larsen, but WOW what hate! One of the post Qrush goes though some psychoanyalsis of how Scott Larsen could be gay, calls him a 40 year old virgin. If this really turns out to be Orrin, I have no words for someone like this. I am totally discusted!

    It would be just like him to rip Ty behind his back and then manipulate with stroking of the ego, that is his MO in action, that is what a manipulator does to get what they want. Wonder what Ty, Bo, and Scott would do if they suspect Orrin is behind that blog?

    He can’t possibly wonder why so many people have so much contempt for him. If the PC knows all what Orrin has done and is doing, they are NO different and will watch and wait for them to go down together! Thank God we have nothing to do with this fraudulent scam and vendicitve sick and twisted people!

    I think you are right Amthrax, and thanks for all your research to show new prospects and existing ones; it would be very telling if all of a sudden that site gets taken down.

    How can someone prove people are behind blogs? Perhaps Vogel would know?

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 8:19 am

    I agree webelieved~ Wonder if Laurie really knows what kind of man she is married to?

  4. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 8:28 am

    Amthrax~ The quotes you pointed out are very telling, I noticed on the Qrush blog a lot of the same quotes and sayings are the same as Orrin uses too.

  5. August 16, 2011 8:56 am

    @webelieved and @speak – Orrin Woodward and TEAM actually sued Scott Larsen several years ago, forcing what I believe was an out-of-court settlement which resulted in Scott taking down all of his critical posts about TEAM/Orrin Woodward from his website. There are mirrors of the content still on the Internet, if you search hard enough.

    There may not be smoking gun evidence that Orrin is Qrush, but there are a lot of telltale signs and several people saying privately to me that it was him. Sometimes in cases like these, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. This is why I labeled the post “Part One” as I will continue to search for the truth behind Qrush.

  6. switch permalink
    August 16, 2011 9:08 am

    The writing is on the wall now.

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 9:22 am

    Amthrax~ I will be looking forward to ‘Part 2″ and agree with switch, there is so much smoke just have to find the fire!

    This I do know the truth will always find you out! Looking forward to it! 🙂

  8. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 16, 2011 9:57 am

    There was a time (shortly after the lawsuit) when Certain RT members would come into the home office and personally work with Team Employees on the Anonymous Blog/smear campaign. Everything from Blogs, to YouTube videos, etc. At the time we all thought it was funny……when it is really quite sad…

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 12:24 pm


    Why after the lawsuit? It is quite sad… I agree and what about the insignificant legacy he is leaving for his children?

    How terribly sad when they would read these blogs about who the person their dad really is. What would their kids think about QRUSH? How would they explain this from the biblical view and in the eyes of God to their children?

    The more that comes out the more twisted and sick it is. I feel bad for their children and all the other children who have to put up with the team lies, deceit and how so many people’s lives Orrin and the PC have damaged, while taking a ride in the Yacht and all the other luxuries they have because their dad stole, cheated, lied to, deceived and made all that money off of others, the people their children even knew? What a tragedy!

  10. August 17, 2011 6:56 am

    All I can say is WOW! If John Maxwell got caught slandering his competition for years anonymously online it would be game over for his leadership persona. I remember this blog clearly and you can see Orrin written all over it. He was the mastermind behind SPIN and crushing the NEGATIVE INTERNET.

    I even called a few other former RT members about this post and they all recall this blog and believe that Orrin was behind Qrush. Some even indicated that they have first hand knowledge that he was behind it. Interesting!! I do believe an apology is in order to Scott Larsen, Ty Tribble and Bo Short.

    Time to MAN UP Orrin!

  11. August 17, 2011 7:57 am

    @Will – It would be very helpful for those RT members to come and post their thoughts on Orrin = Qrush.

  12. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:55 am

    Here is a couple of harsh statements made by Qrush from the blog. WOW, UNBELIEVABLE! This is exactly what Orrin has done to many, many leaders!!!

    Bo will break any friendship, destroy his own character, and even lie about his former associates to gain an advantage. After six MLM failures the gig is up and no one is buying his BS anymore. Instead of exiting the field in shame, Bo Short increases his rhetoric and makes even more outlandish claims in a futile attempt to generate publicity for his failing enterprises.

    Scott is a master manipulator and forgets the truth himself as he lies so much that he believes them too. Scott is a sick man child who needs psychological help.

    [Editor’s Note: Placed comment in blockquote for proper context]

  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 10:16 am

    Orrin, did you seriously say this? YOU have got to be freaking kidding, what a Hypocrite you ARE! When, and Where have you EVER ANSWERED QUESTIONS (there is a WHOLE POST of questions on Amthrax) or even let comments on your blog from anyone that doesn’t worship YOU and you have the audacity to say Scott is a pitiable waste of a life?


    Qrush is still waiting for Scott Larsen to email his answers to the simple question Qrush asked of him. Why can’t this pitiable waste of a life answer the questions posed of him?
    The public wants to know why Scott Larsen won’t answer the freaking questions.

  14. TOD permalink
    August 17, 2011 4:29 pm

    Check out the new videos on

    These sound awfully familiar….

  15. August 17, 2011 4:32 pm

    Well, there are many thought provoking thoughts on this blog. Sadly, like so many other blog owners who use a public platform, the real owner doesn’t seem to feel like using their real identity.

    To me it is somewhat hypocritical to come down on Orrin or anyone else, when identities are being hidden here.

    Now, I have never been a part of team, and have not been with Amway since I was a kid. I will say I know Orrin and most of the former and current Team leadership, both personally and on a professional level.

    Sometimes I have come down critical of Orrin and Team and other times I have praised them. Same goes with Amway and MonaVie.

    But at no times do I hide who I am or what I believe in. As a matter of fact serious critics and advocates never hide their identities.

    Now, as to whether Orrin has hidden his identity on some blog is an interesting question, and one that if he did, only those closest to him would know for sure, and I really doubt they would ever tell, because if by some chance Orrin did do this, you can bet they probably did it also.

    With the Dickie’s and Kevin Thompson leaving TEAM, it does seem that Orrin and Chris have gone in a new direction.

    Again, I enjoyed reading the article and comments. I just feel this blog would offer far more value, if the owner(s) would be more forthright.

    Now, if I am missing something or have spoken out of turn, feel free to call me on it. I have no problem apologizing if I missed something.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  16. August 17, 2011 5:56 pm


    1) Orrin has consistently maintained a public distaste for anonymous bloggers. It valid to label him as a hypocrite if it turns out he was (a) behind the anonymous blogging campaigns for/against Amway/Quixtar and (b) an anonymous blogger himself.

    2) As long as the person is consistent with what he or she writes on the Web, I defend his or her right to comment anonymously and to use a pseudonym. If a person violates that right, I will call them out on it (Dean Kosage and Happy Girl example). This does not make me a hypocrite.

    Anonymity and pseudonyms on the Internet is not a black and white issue. For more on the subject, read:

  17. August 17, 2011 7:15 pm


    1.) I do see your point. And since I am not involved with this actual situation, I am sure I do not see it exactly as you do. Without a doubt it is easy to see you have some deep emotional attachment to this situation.

    But without documented evidence that Orrin personally had anything to do with it, is it wise to call him or anyone for that matter a hypocrite just based on 3rd party rumors? I’ve had similar situations happen on my blog and people got hurt, who had never done anything. Like you I do my best to allow “Freedom of Speech” but at times common sense must prevail.

    2.) Now this is interesting. I am not sure I can fully agree, without some clarity. You state…

    “As long as the person is consistent with what he or she writes on the Web, I defend his or her right to comment anonymously and to use a pseudonym.”

    However, a person could be consistent in spreading lies, and it seems you would still defend them.

    This is something that is very personal to me. I believe “Freedom of Speech” does not include someone telling blatant lies or falsehoods just to further their own agenda. Not only do I not see it this way, neither does the 9th Circuit:

    I understand you have your own personal reasons for staying private. But it seems based on the 9th Circuit, that if you allow rumors and can substantiate whether they are truth or false, you could end up in the same place Orrin did just a few years ago.

    This is the first time I have been on your blog, and I have to admit, I do find it intriguing to say the least. I just believe as Blog owners we have a responsibility to do all we can to support the truth from both sides of a situation.

    And, I believe we bring far more authenticity when we are transparent on ho we are.

    Thank you for allowing me to share.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  18. August 17, 2011 7:22 pm


    Troy Dooly is truly a man of character. He’s the real deal, no fluff. He’s also a close friend. I’m glad you published his comment. While I certainly respect free speech and people’s right to anonymity, I understand Troy’s point about the importance of using your own name. As for me personally, I’ve published a number of anonymous comments across the web years ago and I’ve found that I take waaaaay too many liberties under a pseudonym. I just stick with my name and it keeps me honest. I’m not judging you or anyone else on this blog for posting anonymously. But for me personally, seeing my name keeps me restrained. Anonymous speech is a power that’s difficult to wield responsibly.

    Troy, I got an email from someone asking about why my name was mentioned in your comment. In your comment, you said, “With the Dickie’s and Kevin Thompson leaving TEAM, it does seem that Orrin and Chris have gone in a new direction.” I’ll be honest, I got spooked when I saw my name mentioned in a comment to such a controversial topic. It’s been almost 3 years since I’ve been with Team. In those 3 years, there’s been a number of new hires, new leaders, terminations, etc. Is there any reason why you mentioned my name in particular as a mile marker for Chris and Orrin moving in another direction?

  19. No Team For Me permalink
    August 17, 2011 7:31 pm

    I appreciate your desire for transparency. And I sincerely wish it could be so. Unfortunately, many of us on this site have known Orrin much more personally than you do and for much longer.

    Anyone can seem impressive if you’ve only been around them a dozen times or so. But when you’ve built the relationship many of us have with him, we have seen the inside. Which means we have seen the acts of retribution toward anyone who speaks out against him.

    It seems he is all for honesty, openess and integrity unless it is someone speaking the truth of their negative experiences with TEAM.

    Knowing Orrin as well as many of us do, we completely understand anyone wanting to remain anonymous.

    I am personally aware of some of Orrin’s indirect involvement in anonymous posts on other blogs and find it very hypocritical if he would ever question someone wanting to remain anonymous on this blog.

  20. Lyk permalink
    August 17, 2011 7:42 pm

    Amthrax is Orrin Don’t you guys know that? He’s weeding out and learning from both sides to gain Knowledge of why people didn’t succeed and how to fix that money problem. lol I wonder if you would let my post go through though you have no proof you are not orrin or if you are something else.

  21. August 17, 2011 7:52 pm


    First let me say thank you for your kind words. I do focus on living by my word.

    As for mentioning you and the Dickie family, I used that as a focal point only. In watching the TEAM departure from Amway and the landing at MonaVie, and studying all the legal papers I could get my hands on, it was clear, you all were very active in doing everything you could to keep TEAM rolling in that transaction.

    When you left and went out on your own in private practice, I pinpointed that as a change in in-house legal counsel. As most people realize, when in-house counsel changes, so can the legal opinion of the organization. So for me, it was an important point in the continued monitoring of TEAM.

    When the Dickie’s left to pursue their personal passions, this was another focal point for me in my continued research and monitoring. Again, when the executive team of an organization leaves, the direction of the organization can change.

    This is my only reason for bringing in your name and the Dickie’s. I have nothing but the highest respect for all of you. If anything I said implied otherwise I am truly sorry.

    @Everyone else, I want to thank you for sharing your insights. As you have mentioned I am not as close to Orrin by any means as some of you seem to have been over the years. I respect where you are coming from.

    My original objective was to review this post, which was brought to my attention. Then after reading it, I did feel compelled to write my original comment, and leave it at that.

    Now, after reading what you all wrote, and responding to Mr. Thompson’s concern, with your permission I would like to continue hanging out, and reviewing what you write. Every once in a while I may comment. I hope you will accept my comments in the heart they are delivered.

    Thank you for the kindness in which you responded to my comments.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  22. August 17, 2011 7:52 pm

    @Troy – Let me clarify. As long as the person posting anonymous is consistent and being truthful with what he or she writes on the Web, I defend his or her right to comment anonymous and to use a pseudonym.

    It is clear from reading the comments from over three dozen ex-TEAM members on this site that many people have been impacted negatively by TEAM and Orrin Woodward. This blog serves as a forum for them to speak out against the abuses they feel they endured. What happens if they leave their critical comments on TEAM blogs such as Orrin’s site? Nothing, cause the comments will be moderated and never see the light of day.

    More information:

    Famous people who used pseudonyms and pen names:

    Federalist Papers’ Authors under the name Publius: Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay
    Mark Twain: Samuel Clemens
    George Sand: Amantine Dupin (Dudevant)
    George Orwell: Eric Blair
    Lewis Carroll: Charles Dodgson

  23. August 17, 2011 7:57 pm

    @Lyk – I’ve been moderating your comments because your last several have been completely incoherent.

    Simply put, I am not Orrin.

  24. humiliated permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:06 pm

    Really Troy? In the spirit of full disclosure, how much does MonaVie pay you to say all of the wonderful things that you say about them on your “balanced” web site? I have been to your site over the years and had the decency not to post my opinions but your website is as unbiased as Fox news is and it troubles me that you are even on this site right now. You pretend that you are advocating network marketing but you are simply on the payroll for all of these scam companies. You can tell me that you don’t get a direct paycheck from them (which I wouldn’t believe) but at the very least, all of the distributors from all of these scam companies go to your site to confirm all of the marketing propaganda that these cults forward you and you act as if you are some neutral, independant advocate for network marketing. You have some nerve talking about transparency. You are as masked as they come and the only thing you are honest about IS your name. It doesn’t suprise me at all that you and Orrin (and Dallin and Brig) are pals.

    That said, I agree that we shouldn’t tar and feather Orrin for being Qrush just yet, but I have no doubt that he is Qrush. Wanna know why? Because the ONE person that I do trust (and it ain’t you or Orrin) is Amthrax. I also trust the lovely gentleman that runs Juice Scam & Lazy Man. You have been here, what..a minute? You don’t know that Amthrax has removed posts that are inflammatory if he feels that they are unjust or unproven. For Amthrax to post this article makes me feel like he has received some very reliable intel and he is going to do everything in his power to expose Orrin.

    Amthrax and Lazy Man (and a few other posters on this site) know my true identity because I TRUST them. If you have been to the Lazy Man site, (and I KNOW you have) you will have seen that he has been threatened physically and legally on more than one occasion. People here don’t expose themselves because they want the freedom to LIE, they are actually AFRAID of Orrin because they have seen what he is capable of. Are you seriously going to condemn them for that?

  25. humiliated permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:10 pm

    And Troy, please stop with the bullshit. I wasn’t even ON Team, I was only involved with MonaVie but is so obvious to me that the Dickies didn’t leave because they wanted to pursue their “personal passions”. You have just lost any credibility you may have had with these folks. Geez. Quit while you are behind.

  26. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:20 pm

    @Troy..humiliated beat me to the punch.

  27. humiliated permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:46 pm

    I should clarify, when Amthrax removes comments he believes to be inflammatory, they are usually ones that would negatively impact Orrin.

    I should also add this Troy. These companies that you so blatantly support (MonaVie and Team) don’t allow US to comment on their sites and in fact they remove any negative comments and Amthrax invites anyone to comment on here. Soooooo….we have to be transparent but these assholes that you support are allowed to control the information in direct violation of this Freedom Of Speech principle you speak of and pretend to cherish. Are you f*cking kidding me?

  28. August 17, 2011 9:09 pm

    @ Troy, thanks for your comments and sharing on this blog.

    I think many people, Amthrax included, remain anonymous due to Orrin’s track record of suing people and orchestrating massive SMEAR CAMPAIGNS on the web against people he does not like.

    Fact: Orrin was the mastermind behind the anonymous blogging campaign aimed at Quixtar back in 2007 while under a court injunction.

    A number of former leaders (Triple 100s, Round Table Members) have come forward and talked about their involvement in Orrin’s smear campaign against Amway and how Orrin planned and implemented this anonymous blogging strategy. I was one of them.

    It is also coming out from a number of former leaders that Orrin was indeed the anonymous slanderer known as Qrush, and what reasons would they have for making this up?

    If Orrin is Qrush, then it shows what a huge hypocrite he is as he espouses himself as the leader of a life development program, promoting family values, christian values, integrity, character and high moral principles, yet at the same time he is launching an anonymous smear campaign as Qrush, where the blog is crude, immoral, degrading, slanderous and flat out malicious towards Ty Tribble, Bo Short and Scott Larsen.

    Moreover, if Orrin is Qrush, is it right for him to slander his competition and fellow networking friend, Ty Tribble? Did he ever apologize to Ty for the comments he made on this blog? Did he ever go to Ty over the issues he had with him? If Orrin is Qrush, then he is a disgrace to the network marketing industry and he owes Ty Tribble an apology.

    Another point I would like to highlight is that Amthrax and many of the other anonymous posters on this blog are not lowering themselves to the level as Qrush and are also not on the outside posing as leadership experts and christian speakers at church conferences. You can’t compare this as apples to apples. This is clearly apples and oranges.

    When you read Amthrax’s posts, do they not seem respectful and tame? They come across to me as raising important questions about a business that seems to be seriously flawed. That’s it. As long as Amthrax posts in this manner, then he should have every right maintaining this blog anonymously. If it comes out later that Amthrax is Brig Hart or Ty Tribble or some other networking kingpin trying to slander their competition, if you will, then I think Amthrax would be in the same classification as Qrush, aka: Orrin.

    The fact is this: Orrin is promoting one thing on stage and doing something totally different behind the scenes and misleading people in the process.

    You may ask, “What is Orrin’s stance on Anonymous blogging?” My answer would be, “He supports it.” This is why he launched an anonymous smear campaign towards Amway and Quixtar during 2007 under a court injunction.

    Where is Bill Smith now? Or Lyk? If we are cowards for hiding are identities, then Orrin is a coward as well. Period.

    Need proof? Search for Quixtar and the John Doe Anonymous blogger lawsuit in google. Quixtar was suing team and the John Doe bloggers as they referred to them to prove that these bloggers were affiliated with team and orrin. Team’s stance was that they had a “1st amendment right to remain anonymous.” This is interesting coming from Orrin and his company.

  29. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 1:53 am


    I appreciate your honesty and your whole post! Orrin (THE owner) of Team took the stance that He/Team had ‘The Right to Remain Anonymous’ clearly makes the hypocrisy point! He has called Anonymous Bloggers plenty of derogatory names and has passed that down to all the other lifers and that is why you see them repeating, the faceless, nameless, Coward comments!

    This is what we all know, as you stated; Orrin is one person in the eyes of some, because they haven’t figured out he is a master manipulator and uses everyone to get what he wants and will throw you out like the trash when he is done with you.


    These abuses have been going on for a very long time, dating back to the Amway system days where Orrin learned how to be a greedy con. I am surprised that you aren’t aware of this. You state you know the leaders on the team, do you know how many have left or the reasons? Do you not know that there are numerous big leaders with some big numbers, who all left for the reasons stated on this blog and some I know haven’t shared the damage done to them? Wouldn’t common sense tell you there would be something seriously wrong here?

    Orrin, stole our profit-sharing and teams, how? They just stopped paying us, after over a decade of being promised a “passive, residual, ongoing, willable, B-type Business, for the rest of our lives, if we brought the numbers to their system.”

    Made us sign a contract at go-diamond to get paid, (after we had been getting paid) never gave anyone the contract we signed, refused, then changed it we could drive to the Team Office to ‘review’ it, but they were ‘exercising their rights’ and voided it out but we could PAY for a ticket, traveling and hotel expenses, etc.. And drive to another seminar location, hundreds of miles away to sign a new one.

    Told us the access code to our profit-sharing meeting, then changed it to they were re-scheduling but never let us know when, kicked us out of our profit-sharing meetings.

    During the registration into MV, told everyone when to resign and how, Ripped our groups up with theft of people’s personals, trading personals, telling people to steal from one leg and move to another so they could rank themselves, told people to illegally put their businesses in family members names because they couldn’t legally get in themselves, due to the 6 month wait. All, without an explanation,(should be obvious) and we were slandered, lied to and about, de-edified to our leaders in our own groups.

    Does this sound like ‘living intentional for excellence’, the Orrin you know?

    YOU do NOT know the real Orrin or I should say you only know Orrin by what Orrin has you believing about him.

    What honest company on the planet or ‘leader’ does this? This violates every leadership principle they say they live by! Orrin has convinced the MLM world that he is a (self-proclaimed) ‘leadership guru’, Says he lives by leadership and Christian principles and none of it does he apply!

    So, yes he is a hypocrite, and many other things in my opinion, but he is definitely not a Christian leader or any leader for that matter, he is a con. And someday you will see it and hopefully not the way we experienced it, anonymous or not.

  30. August 18, 2011 5:59 am

    Well said all! This has been some great back and forth! A GREAT read first thing in the morning!

    I agree with Amthrax, we have the right to free speech under any name we wish! Fear of reprisal is very real for most of us, and at this point….not worth the risk. I think people coming onto this site can evaluate the information they are hearing from Team….and then from the former Team members on this site, to form their own conclusion about who is being truthful. The people that come on and make a quick comment, quoting their favourite Team CD, do nothing to add to the conversation! Yes…. we’ve all been “Fired Up”, and dropped one liners from CD’s on people! In my opinion… the people this blog can really help is the brand new person, and the “Leader” who has been on Team long enough to see the truth in the comments being made here!

    Again…..great stuff by all!

  31. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    August 18, 2011 7:06 am

    Troy- Remaining hidden behind a moniker allows me to avoid being dragged into court by a VERY rich man. I’m not rich. He knows that about ALL of us. He could ruin many of us financially through the legal system and never really accomplish anything but that. I believe he’d do it and relish every minute of it as well. ‘Nuff said?

  32. Samantha permalink
    August 18, 2011 7:08 am

    Oh my, I would LOVE to post comments under my own name. In fact, I would be able to tell the truth about a LOT of stuff that I can’t right now because those things would identify me.

    Hubby has asked me to remain silent. His point is that we have way to many good things going on right now in our lives, and why poke a hornet’s nest? After three years of the poverty and hell we endured during the Quixtar lawsuits, we are finally in a solid financial position. We are now focused on building business ASSETS that WE own and control, not some egotistical crackpot with a God-complex.

    (Obviously the hornet’s nest is Orrin. I have spoken with an attorney who has assured me that there is little Orrin can do if I only tell the truth; however, I have seen the legal system first hand and it is only a legal system–NOT a justice system. The one with the most money wins. Period.)

    I am surprised at how few people on our team have asked why we left. It is clear that most have just swallowed the standard crap being spread around Team. But a few have asked, and we tell.

    Here’s an interesting one: I had dinner last week with someone on my former Team that I had not seen in quite a while. She is still active in Team, and she happened to mention our dinner to someone else on Team. Within an hour, she had received two phone calls and one frantic text message from upline who work directly with Orrin. “Just calling to see how you are doing. Oh by the way, I heard you had dinner with ____. How did it go?”

    My first thought was: If everyone on team is telling the truth, there would be no need for anyone to worry about me having dinner with ANYONE, would there? So for all you loyal Team people, just keep in mind that you are all being carefully watched. Hmm.

    (Just so you all know, she asked. I told. Everything.)

    Here is one thing I told her: I defended MLMs for years; I bought in to the belief that they were a great opportunity for people without any financial capital to build an incredible business income. What I didn’t realize, or ignored, was that MLM income is the most unreliable income you can have. You own nothing!! Any contract you sign is completely one-sided and clearly states can be changed at any time for any reason! You the distributor take ALL the risks and literally have only a hope and a prayer that you will get paid for your efforts. You do not build an asset that you can sell or even borrow against.

    What I now know is that there are a lot of honest ways to make money and build business income. Many do not require any special education or gobs of money. They do require discipline and focus, just like the Team teaches. But the TEAM or LIFE or whatever they call themselves now are not the only source of this information–in fact there is a wealth of info available for free at your library and on the internet.

    Keep up the great work!

  33. August 18, 2011 7:37 am


    Let’s not beat around the bush… You are a blatant lier when it comes to me not allow you or others to post on my site! I let folks on both sides post, always have and always will. Which is one of the things I am coming to enjoy on this site.

    And on that note, I have not written on MonaVie specifically in months. Except to show how they lost revenues last year in the tune of $150 million or more, due to the fact their focus has been on lawsuits. But so did several other companies.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  34. humiliated permalink
    August 18, 2011 7:42 am

    Thanks for the props We Believed and Fly…

    First off, I am not really sure why Mr. Thomspon came on here to spout off and support his good buddy Troy. Of course you would say these things…you are his LAWYER. This is what I found on Troy’s site “Those of you, who read our articles or are subscribers to MLM Help Desk, know MLM attorney and advocate Kevin Thompson is both a friend and our legal counsel”. So, as adorable as that little exchange was between these BFF’s, it was orchestrated in my view. So, Kev, the fact that you have nothing but respect for Troy doesn’t surprise me since you two are of the same “character” supporting these scams/cults. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I would have more respect for you Kev, if you defended mass murderers. What a waste of a perfectly good law degree.

    Secondly, Troy is clearly trying to shang hai this conversation and take the focus off what our real concern is and that is the Qrush blog and whether Orrin is the Oz behind it. I don’t think we have to explain ourselves to Mr. Dooly as he is well aware what this website is all about (it is his business to know) and someone has told him to pay us a little visit.

    Excellent points Will!

  35. August 18, 2011 7:56 am

    Let’s keep the conversation focused on the subject of the post, which is whether or not Orrin is behind the anonymous blogger Qrush.

  36. August 18, 2011 8:22 am

    There are a number of former leaders (RT Members, Triple 100s) on this blog that have left Team. Let’s discuss what we know about these Orrin, Chris and Tim smearing Quixtar as anonymous bloggers during their lawsuits that started in 2007.

    We all know that Quixtar was awarded $25 million dollars in court as a Federal Judge did not fall for the bull that Orrin and co. were trying to pull in court. While we do not know the details of their later settlement, we know one thing: Orrin, Chris and Tim lost in court and were found guilty.

    All of us were solicited, told when to pull our groups out of Amway, when to join MonaVie, taking phone calls from Orrin even though he had a court gag order on him. He broke the law repeatedly and no one seems to bring these issues to light.

    Moreover, he asked a number of us to blog for him. It is a fact that he was behind the anonymous blogging campaign aimed at Quixtar, despite the fact that he repeatedly denied any involvement or knowledge of these blogs UNDER OATH!!!!!! Some leader, right?

    Who else was apart of Orrin’s strategy here and what did he ask you and others to do?

  37. humiliated permalink
    August 18, 2011 8:23 am

    I agree Amthrax but I do have to say this. Troy, how am I lying? I never said anything about not being able to post on your site? I did say that your site is not balanced and I stand by that, (please see the below ) I said it was the Team and Monavie site that would remove negative comments. Please take more time to read my post before reacting.

    You say you haven’t written about MonaVie for months? No, you haven’t but you recently SPOKEN about them in a video and raved about their new study which you didn’t even bother to verify the signficance, independance or accuracy of. I have asked Vogel and Lazy Man to analyze this “study” (this took my 5 minutes) and the study is fluff. How is that providing objective information? You have simply taken what the marketing dept. or what is on their propoganda web site and regurgitated it.

    I promise I won’t comment about Troy again and i had posted my previous comment prior to reading yours Amthrax, but I just want to show who we are dealing with here.

    Living an HONEST adventure

  38. August 18, 2011 8:44 am


    Again, thank you for giving me some real insight into why this blog is so important to the average person who has at one time or another been hurt through this situation.

    Now, without a doubt, I have touched on a very open wound and I want everyone to know, my intent was not, and is not to add pain to this wound.

    My only goal is to learn more about this situation.

    One of the writers, suggested I am in some way paid by MonaVie, TEAM or Orrin or other companies for that matter to post “Only” positive reviews. Sadly, those folks do not seem to have reviewed my writings, videos or radio shows.

    I love Network Marketing, and want to cover every issue and use it to protect others from the same thing happen, and/or praising the distributors and companies.

    This does not mean I will get things wrong, or because of only hearing one side, of an issue, I have to come back and write more or updated info.

    I do feel that what I am reading here, is not coming from a bunch of dull, negative, dissolution crybabies, but from people who have truly been hurt emotionally and financially.

    As I wrote last night, I will be reading and listening to what is written, and at times will ask questions and/or comment.

    @Amthrax, thank you for clarifying where you are coming from with the blog. I am still a little concerned based on the 9th Circuit decision. Thank you for giving me the latitude to comment and ask questions.

    @Humiliated, I don’t care if you trust me or not. But, you do need to get your facts straight, and stop just spitting out your own propaganda. Just the comments you made about me, which are 100% false, falls into the same category of what you say you are against.

    As an advocate of Network Marketing, it would make total sense the majority of topics on the site would be positive towards the profession. It doesn’t mean, I am paid for those reviews. Except for the fact I do get products to review. And if you were to take time to review my personal values, then you would know I am 100% for full disclosure, and live it in every area of my life.

    I would be willing to talk live with you, so you can get a better feel for who I am and what I stand for – your call.

    @One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table – A phone call might just clear things up for you! Plus I am not sure which issue you agree with Humiliated with.

    @Will – on the orrin woodward life training scam – The last few hours has been very eye opening for me on this situation. As I stated above, I can truly feel the emotion in a very personal way. Based on what I have read, if I were in the shoes of you folks, I may feel the exact same way.

    @webelieved – I understand where you are coming from. However the very case mentioned above Amway .ve TEAM seems to clarify that our First Amendment Right” doesn’t cover disparaging comments, which is my overall concern. The very thing people are hoping can protect them, may bite them in the butt. –$file/0157013.pdf?openelement

    @Speak Your Truth – The leaders I refer to left TEAM years ago, and have not been a part for many years. Some went on to create their own teams in other companies and some have left the profession to pursue their true passions. In reading your comment, I have a better understand of the big picture, and it has given me some more issues to research.

    @I Quit ( and glad I Did) – Your concern is very valid, and I fully understand where you are coming from.

    I am truly looking forward to learning from each of you as I review where you are coming.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


    [Editor’s note: Corrected “does” to “doesn’t” mean to clarify actual position]

  39. August 18, 2011 8:54 am


    🙂 You are 100% correct. In the video I was very clear “Just saw this on the MonaVie site.” And if you notice, I did not write a stand alone article on it, because it was not worthy of a stand alone anything.

    Seriously, we should talk live, you might find we are on the same page, just seeing things from different directions.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  40. August 18, 2011 8:58 am

    @Troy: You wrote:

    As an advocate of Network Marketing, it would make total sense the majority of topics on the site would be positive towards the profession. It does mean, I am paid for those reviews. Except for the fact I do get products to review. And if you were to take time to review my personal values, then you would know I am 100% for full disclosure, and live it in every area of my life.

    Please clarify, did you mean “It doesn’t mean”?

  41. August 18, 2011 8:59 am

    @Troy, thanks for your comments and patience with us on this site. I do hope that you stick around to hear stories from those of us that have been truly hurt and mislead by Orrin Woodward and the many wrong doings that have taken place.

    I believe you are right about the 1st Amendment right to anonymity online, i.e. the courts will protect your anonymous right to free speech, but you can lose that right as soon as you defame and slander another individual or company. Please correct me if I did not sum this up accurately.

    With that said, in the case of Quixtar v. Orrin Woodward et. all & the case where Quixtar was filing a lawsuit against the John Doe Bloggers, they were arguing that the blogs were defamatory and slanderous. Is this true? Absolutely.

    There were a number of blogs that referred to Quixtar as Nazis, Inbreds and Faggots. More importantly here, is that Orrin was behind those blogs, orchestrated it and encouraged it. That does not sound very Christian like, or something that a leadership LIFE coach should be doing, no?

  42. August 18, 2011 9:04 am


    Again, I want to highlight that Amthrax’s blog is very cordial and professional with the subjects he discusses and questions he raises.

    I am sure you would agree with this, right?

    If you were to compare Amthrax’s blog with that of Qrush you will see that Qrush is a hateful, bitter, depressed individual that needs some serious help, and if the author happens to be one of the worlds supposedly top leadership experts and life coach (AKA: Orrin Woodward), then clearly that is inappropriate behavior for someone professing to be a top leader a Christian, while at the same time milking people for money based on the principles and concepts, which he does not even dare live up to.

  43. August 18, 2011 11:21 am


    Again, thank you for giving me some real insight into why this blog is so important to the average person who has at one time or another been hurt through this situation.

    Most of the vocal contributors to this blog were former high-level TEAM members here. These are not “average” people.

    My only goal is to learn more about this situation.

    Start by reading the over 1000 comments in the Ex-TEAM post

    You can also read my posts on Orrin Woodward and TEAM.

    Learn why I’m posting by reading my About page. I’ve been doing this for three years, more than enough time to have established my credibility and identity in this debate.

  44. August 18, 2011 11:38 am

    A couple of things…

    I was contacted by someone not long ago, stating that they had intimate knowledge that Qrush was Orrin Woodward.

    Early on we traced the Qrush I.P. address (an early mistake while posting a comment on a blog) to an area where Orrin Woodward lived at the time in Michigan.

    Am I upset with Orrin?

    That’s a hard question. If the site wasn’t filled with lies, I would have no problem with it. But the site is filled with lies and b.s. about me and my family.

    At the same time, I understand the motivation behind the Qrush site. At the time, I was very active online as a critic of Amway and it’s systems and looking back, I said some stuff that I might not say today, or maybe I would chose my words differently.

    Having spent 10 years in Amway (5 years building 3-4 nights a week) with no real results I found myself caught up in a mission to tell everyone about the problems.

    Truth is, my time in Amway was a catalyst for the success I am having in the industry today, for that I am thankful.

  45. August 18, 2011 11:47 am

    Troy, you can’t win. The critics of MLM will criticize you for positive blog posts and meanwhile back at the ranch, you are blasted by MLMers for posting critical reviews of companies.

    But, inquiring minds want to know…have you asked Orrin point blank if he penned the Qrush site?

  46. August 18, 2011 12:08 pm

    So the IP address for Qrush came from Orrin’s hometown?

    Interesting. What are the chances that it was not Orrin?

    Thanks Ty for your comments.

  47. August 18, 2011 6:35 pm

    Orrin Woodward just published a long post in which he alludes to claims made here:

    I have updated my post above with the relevant excerpt from Orrin’s post.

  48. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 7:12 pm

    Will~ I agree; what are the chances? 1 in a million! 🙂

  49. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 18, 2011 7:51 pm

    Someone said it earlier, “where there is smoke, there is fire.” Very interesting indeed.

  50. John permalink
    August 18, 2011 8:13 pm

    Orrin Woodward should not only apologize for his vulgar and obcene comments on Qrush blog,but he should also apologize for all of his blogging and lying that he has been doing ever since he learned how to bully and beat up on people. Orrin uses his many blogs to intimdate and to take cheap shots at anyone that may disagree with him. Sadly, Orrin’s ego is fed by his fawning followers who delight in his theatrics. His apology seems hollow. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and now he is only doing damage control. How about an apology to the people you slandered Orrin? How about an apology to the Devos family? How about an apology to Scott Larsen? How about an aplogy to all the people you have hurt, slandered, lied about, and scammed over the years? When many of the people on this blog start getting phone calls or better yet visits from you asking for forgiveness maybe some one might actually take you seriously. But right now in all of our eyes you are still just a phony. Orrin tell us who was the other person that supposedly started the Qrush blog? Who was the person or persons that put most of that filth and vile on line? If it wasn’t you then who was it? Maybe your supposed colaborator will come forward to help clear your name. We wait to hear from this mystery person. In the meantime we all feel this is another one of your many deceptions.

  51. August 18, 2011 8:50 pm

    Amthrax, you clearly struck a nerve with your post to cause Orrin to respond in his article the way he did. It is laughable that he paints himself as the VICTIM. Typical Orrin spin here. He is the classic spinmeister as many of the former leaders on his team who have left know him to be. This is one of the main reasons that so many people leave his organization. They cannot stand being with someone that is so dis-honest and when called out on an issue or asked about a serious question or problem, he will simply dodge bullets, shift blame and never admit RESPONSIBILITY for his actions, yet he has the audacity to tell other leaders to step up and take responsibility. Another classic Orrin-ism “Do as I preach, but I don’t have to follow any of it.”

    It is the same here with his latest post. He vaguely hints that he engaged in anonymous blogging and admits that he was sorry for doing so, yet he lied thru his teeth about his involvement and tried to downplay it as if it was a minor incident. I know this because I spoke with someone today that has first hand knowledge about this blog and Orrin’s role. More over, there is proof that he was the creator/sole author.

    If Orrin’s post was indeed a response to this Qrush article (Which other anonymous blog would it be?) then he told a number of lies to cover his butt. When he should just admit responsibility and apologize for his behavior. But we know that will not happen.

    Here are the lies he told:

    1) A person on his team did not start the anonymous blog, it was ORRIN (100% Orrin)

    2) He says that many of the board members provided content. This seems to be a lie as well, as from what I have been told he was the only author of this blog.

    3) He didn’t request for the blog to be shut down, because he has possession and control of the blog HIMSELF.

    4) Orrin mentioned that 2005 was the year he made that commitment to not fight critics anymore in that type of forum. Really? Where does his anonymous smear campaign then fit in that he aimed at Quixtar/Amway from 2007-2009?

    The fact is this: Orrin engages in smear campaigns and anonymous blogging. His post on his blog is proof that he engaged in this behavior in the past. Again, he tried down playing it by saying he had a small role (lie) and that he is sorry for his behavior and would not do this again since he is looking to the future with life (another lie). His track record shows now that he was behind Qrush (a fowl, slanderous, hateful, and homophobic blog), a massive strategic smear campaign aimed at Doug Devos, Quixtar and Amway during the 2007 – 2009 lawsuits (even when he had a court order against him from speaking out) and he engages daily in repetitive character assassination of any leader who decides to FREELY leave his team. All of the former RT members, Triple 100s on this blog know exactly what I am referring to here.

    One of the craziest things he said is that this was something he did when he was “Younger and naive etc.” Really? That is what you are going with Orrin? You are a grown man in your 40’s and this was only 5-7 years ago that this blogging initiative with Qrush took place. You would have been in your mid to late 30s who should definitely know right from wrong at this point in your life. You are not an impressionable 16 year old kid as you are trying to play it as in you recent post. You are passing off responsibility once again instead of ADMITTING that what you did was wrong.

    The question is: are you QRUSH?

    Yes or NO? Make a statement.

    A true statement for a change.

  52. August 18, 2011 8:56 pm

    BTW – John, your first post on this thread is spot on.

    Orrin admits he was behind Qrush and that blog was bashing Quixtar critics in his eyes (Ty Tribble, Scott Larsen, Bo Short, Eric Jannsen etc.) So he defended Quixtar all those years as a good, viable business, but then decides to go out and sue them in 2007.

    You are right.

    This man is a hypocrite and only promotes what will line his pockets.

    Moreover, where is the real apology to Bo Short and Ty Tribble? He slandered these guys for years and called them hateful names as Qrush. That is not what a Christian or REAL leader would do, but definitely something that a CAMPING MANAGER would do. He is camping out and reaping profits off of innocent people in his business and then playing the victim as if he is the one being hurt by the TRUTH being exposed.

    Orrin is telling so many lies that he is burying himself. He can’t keep up with them anymore.

  53. Barb permalink
    August 18, 2011 9:05 pm

    A family reunion… time for ‘Bo Short’ to comment ???

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 9:37 pm

    WOW~ Will & John!

    You have made great and truthful points!

    Unbelievable, even after he has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, he still LIES? OMg!

    Signs of a compulsive liar and that is what happens when it catches up! The truth will always find you out! We experienced a lot of their unethical, illegal, and immoral sheninagins but this definitely raises the question of how many more hundreds of things are they still hiding?

    Will the MLM industry and the real Leaders blow this off? Now what, people can see who the real liar is and who isn’t?

    Or will Troy, and Ty and others excuse Orrin’s behaviour as a little mistake? Will they continue to promote him, continue as if he is an ‘industry leader’ simply had a little ‘minor incident’ because he is claiming to have a ‘minor mentality’? Orrin is claiming to be a young and niave, claiming the victim; blaming everyone and everything else?

    Are they going to cover for him and accept his despicable and sorry attempt at an apology?

    He owes many, many thousands of people, money, and public apologies, for all the lies, theft, stealing, cheating, lying and deceiving he apparently is still doing?

  55. TOD permalink
    August 18, 2011 9:51 pm

    Playing the victim card is absolutely pathetic. It reminds me of the MLB guys that got busted for steroids and instead of manning up and coming TOTALLY clean, they tainted their legacy and an entire era. This bell cannot be un-rung.

  56. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 10:08 pm

    Barb~ And Scott Larsen.
    Welcome to the blog! 🙂

  57. Lyk permalink
    August 18, 2011 10:09 pm

    @Amthrax Simply put, Orrin is not Qrush

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 10:20 pm

    “I realized this was the only way to get our side of the facts out.”

    Huh, that is exactly why we came to Amthrax blog!!!! Thanks Amthrax 🙂

  59. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 10:26 pm

    “In fact, many of the board members, of which I was not a part of at the time, provided facts, figures, and later gossip that I passed on. For this, I am sorry.”

    So this is why Orrin is sorry? Throwing the board members under the bus, blame everyone else, trying to claim innocent ‘victim’, here?

    What gossip did he pass on? This would make him a gossiper?

  60. August 18, 2011 11:46 pm

    @Speak – Agreed. Will any MLM News Sites pick up on this or will it be brushed away as much ado about nothing?

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2011 11:51 pm


    Thanks for commenting, and you wouldn’t be human if it didn’t upset you, we understand believe us; you got a taste of the real Orrin.

    The statement you made about; ‘you can’t win’, just so you know we were never ‘critics’, you could say we were more ‘positive loyalist’ and ‘defenders’ of the Team/Orrin/ PC, for over a decade. But I believe you can understand now why we are here.

  62. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 12:37 am

    Amthrax~ It should be pretty revealing for the industry. 🙂

  63. humiliated permalink
    August 19, 2011 6:36 am

    Make no mistake people, it was no accident that Troy Dooly “stumbled upon” this site. He was sent to defend Orrin’s honor yet, Orrin has pretty much admitted that he IS Qrush so …quite the quagmire.

    I find it interesting that Orrin is really in the dark as to what evidence will be brought forth here so he is trying to do some damage control.

    Amthrax, you got ‘im on the run!

  64. Troy Dooly permalink
    August 19, 2011 7:57 am


    As I have already posted, I welcome a personal call from you anytime, so you can clear up exactly why you feel towards me the way you do. I will gladly listen, and not talk until you are done.

    As for your latest rant that I am here to “Defend Orrin’s Honor”, I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. I have not really addressed Orrin pro or con.

    My goal right now is to listen and learn. If you can’t accept that, then take me up and call me 850-650-0557.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  65. August 19, 2011 8:07 am

    @humiliated, I understand your frustration towards the mlm industry, as we both have had a bad experience with our teams. I know how you FEEL, trust me, I went thru the same hardships when I left team and saw Orrin for the man that he truly is and the viscous assaults and rumors that he spreads about his former leaders. It is nothing but hurtful, deceitful and shameful.

    With that said, I really don’t think Troy is trying to defend his honor, at least we do not know that yet. Troy is very respected in the MLM arena and I believe he will help us here on this blog in order get to the bottom of this. Afterall, if Orrin is truly Qrush, which it looks like he is, then Team Life is bad for the MLM industry and Troy will see that, acknowledge that and most likely help people find the truth regarding these questions that everyone has for Orrin.

  66. Samantha permalink
    August 19, 2011 8:45 am

    This is all too telling.

    For years Orrin has preached that a true leader ALWAYS accepts responsibility when he is wrong, never lies, never rationalizes or makes excuses, and NEVER plays a victim.

    BUT in his blog post Orrin tries to “come clean” by blaming others, rationalizing, lying, and playing a victim. Give me a break. This man has NEVER taken responsibility for anything!! If you sit down and ask him about every one of his failed relationships (the list is long: Pastor Dickie, Bobbie Dickie, Kevin Thompson, Billy Florence, Randy Haugen, Mark Crawford, Jim Pare, Fred Harteis, Lennon Ledbetter, Don Wilson, Jody Victor, Don Storms, Gerry Betterman, Bo Short, Lance Smith, Tim Foley, Casey Combden, Matt Abraham, Jeff Granger, Don Freeze, Mike Foos, John Morgan, and God only knows how many more….) Orrin will give you some reasonable explanation in which he is NEVER, EVER at fault.

    Someone may have given him the idea for Qrush, but Orrin was Qrush. Period. There is your lie.

    And then the rationalizing and excuse-making; he was “young and naive.”

    I have just two words for that. Puh. Leeze.

  67. John permalink
    August 19, 2011 9:47 am

    You got to love Samantha! She says it so well!

  68. August 19, 2011 9:59 am

    Check this out. Here Orrin is talking about then IBOAI President Fred Harteis in November, 2004 (bold emphasis mine):

    Fred Harteis has always been a personal favorite speaker of mine. Many times it was Fred’s talk that recharged my desire to win. Very few speakers have the intensity and belief that Fred does. Fred teaches men to be men again and not just whiners. You will never see Fred tearing down someone else to make himself look better. He said once, “It takes no talent to tear down a building, but it takes a special craftsman to build the Sistine Chapel.” What I love about the diamonds is their desire to improve themselves without criticizing others. My dad taught me a long time ago that when you start slinging mud, all you do is dig yourself in a hole. Fred has repeatedly said he will discuss ideas with anyone, but never assassinate someone’s character. That is why I respect Fred Harteis so much and am proud to be part of the IBOAI team with Fred as the leader. Remember if you have a great business then talk about your business, but never run down the competition, that is classless and in poor taste. Winning isn’t everything if you sacrifice character to achieve it. God Bless you on your journey.

    I don’t know about you, but something doesn’t add up here! I’ve updated the main post above with this text. Does this represent another lie by Orrin?

  69. TOD permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:01 am

    Samantha, you are the best! How can someone like Qrush never be wrong? It is not humanly possible. I read his post in it’s entirety and the entire thing is just appalling. Our collective intelligence has just been insulted. Thanks Qrush.

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:22 am

    “If a person chooses to believe rumor, hearsay, and popular opinion, then all I can say is good luck and God bless you. But if a person is truly looking for an opportunity, an opportunity that the LIFE leaders invested millions to gain the freedom to offer, then your journey has ended.”~Orrin Woodward

    “Good Luck and God Bless You” He is referring to rumor, hearsay, and popular opinion is who he defines as the ‘critics.’ That is NOT what he says to all the ‘followers from stage!’

    Un freaking believable, this was the last paragraph that he whipped up bunch of lies he conconcted!

    Troy Dooly~ What are your comments on Orrin’s lastest blog post and the implying or admitting that Orrin has made about his involvement in the Anonymous Blogging that he has attempted to blame others for and the other lies that Will pointed out?

    How does this effect the MLM industry from your view, that I believe you love and want to better?

  71. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:46 am

    Amthrax~ It is so obvious, and it the ‘hole’ keeps getting dug deeper with more lies….

    It is astounding how people are ignoring this!

  72. August 19, 2011 5:41 pm

    @Speak Your Truth,

    I have hours of articles and comments to still read on this site, and several other blogs that have been linked above. I am also reviewing the original cases filed by Amway against TEAM for the original anonymous blogs and the 9th Circuit’s ruling regarding the fact commercial anonymous speech is not covered under the First Amendment, before I make very many comments period.

    As to the most current post by Orrin, it does seem that the folks here in this community have bought enough pressure he felt inclined to defend his past actions or “the actions of people he was feeding information.” But from what I read I would not call it any form of admission of guilt for running an anonymous blog, or any slanderous or defamatory statements.

    Now, as to you more important question (my opinion) on how this effects the MLM industry?

    I do not think Orrin’s actions or lack there of, effects the industry as a whole. Most people do not know who he is, nor do they care. There will be some other Network Marketing leaders who will be watching this situation.

    So, since I am still reviewing this whole situation, and have come into it 3 years down the road, what I would rather address is the ethical issue itself.

    I think I made my stance clear in my original post, I am 100% against anonymous blogs and bloggers. Although, after reading through this community I have come off that stance a little and now I am 99% against anonymous blogging. You all have shown me why some people feel the need to stay private.

    However, I do not believe it is ethically wise for ANY leader to purport one set of ethics publicly and then anonymously personally or through others live by a different set of ethics. I don’t care if it is Orrin Woodward, or the President of the United States.

    Ethics are ethics, you either live by them or you don’t! You don’t hide behind anonymity personally or through others to justify unethical actions – period!

    I do not know where my investigation and research will lead, but without a doubt there is a major issue surrounding this situation, and I do want to learn as much as I can to help others not fall into similar situations in any organization.

    I realize there will always be critics of direct sales, specially Network Marketing, and I respect where they are coming from. Some should never have gotten into the marketing channel in the first place, and others sadly were mislead. But that is not what I am seeing here, and that is what caused me to set back and just read and listen to the conversation.

    And, with Orrin kinda, sorta admitting to some form of anonymous behavior. There is without a doubt a little vindication for this community. However…

    I don’t think it is enough! There has been things said on some of the blogs mentioned above, which I feel a court of law might find defamatory and slanderous if the issue was pushed. And if these folks are part of TEAM or LIFE, or Orrin himself, then directly or indirectly Orrin is responsible for the actions as the leader of the organization.

    In closing I’ll quote a proclamation from President Thomas Jefferson “In matters of fashion, swim with the current. In matters of conscience, stand like a rock.”

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  73. Anonymous Aussie permalink
    August 19, 2011 8:02 pm

    First and foremost – a big thanks to Kevin for his GOALIE test on how to identify a legitimate opportunity as opposed to a pyramid scam. Far fewer people would be getting lured into such scams as MONAVIE and TEAM if they evaluated the opportunity such as you suggest.

    Secondly, we’re most familiar with Mr Troy Dooly, whore of the network marketing industry and whose success depends on the spread of misinformation concerning same. We’ve previously seen this ahem….man of character during another discussion concerning Monavie’s Dallin Larceny. Of note is the manner in which Troy did all he could to duck, dive and distort facts which ironically, an anonymous poster was able to demonstrate.

    That parasites of the industry such as Troy come onto any such site such as this is hardly surprising given he does have a vested personal and financial interest in ensuring the greed driven, ignorant and brainwashed remain oblivious to the scams which he is also profiting from handsomely.

    If Troy was truly concerned with the TRUTH, he’d acknowledge the path of devastation pyramid hustlers such as Orrin Woorwood has left behind him. We most certainly aren’t one of those who have forgotten his history at Amway where he and the company reaped more from selling their crap motivational tools to the sale force themselves than from the selling any products – it’s reported that Orrin himself confirmed retail selling made up less than 4% of the total revenue of the company. As we know, there was little interest in his shite motivational material until he joined Larceny at the next MLM/pyramid scam, Monavie where this loathsome scum has been able to profit off the backs of his own sales force once who are already losing once again and continue his reign of destruction.

    We don’t have the time or the patience for more of your lies and distortions, Mr Dooly so please do us all a favour and kindly……f*ck off.

    Logic would most certainly tell you that blogging anonymously would be entirely possible given the calibre of career criminal we’re dealing with and the nature of industry which is tainted by such stories of slander, intimidation and bullying AND not to mention the frivolous lawsuits.

  74. John permalink
    August 19, 2011 10:06 pm

    We Believed, great questions for Troy. But let me say to all of you here. Troy came on here without hiding anything. He is searching for answers. We should all give him some patience. I know how you all feel about Orrin and Team. I know how I feel about Team, We all have our deep wounds, hurts, and emotional scars that we may carry for years. But we must be careful that we don’t become like the person we have been hurt by. I don’t want to become like Orrin. I don’t want to be a mean, lying, coniving, dishonest, and disrespectful person. I respect Troy for coming on here. I welcome his comments. I may not agree with everything he believes or does but he is here. He is listening to us. Mr. Dooley thanks for listening to our hearts and hearing our words.

  75. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 10:35 pm


    I agree with what you say, and if Troy means what he says about preventing these abuses in the industry to make it better, then I have a lot on my mind about this.

    I do believe he will do his research has he has stated and their is over 1000 comments on Ex-team alone, not to mention all the other documents he mentioned he was going to study.

    This is obviously going to take some time to get through. This is a great opprotunity to have our voices heard by someone in the Industry.

    I plan on responding to Troy’s message and can respect he has responded to mine and others. You are right we may disagree but he is NOT Orrin, who in my opinion, Orrin is playing a big part in ruining the reputation of the industry, even though Troy doesn’t seem to think so, so I believe if the industry ‘leaders’ care about making the change it would serve them ALL well to understand what did and is taking place that has and will continue to create more critics and damage.

    Time will tell how concerned everyone really is, but I agree we need to be patience and then time will prove it out.

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 10:43 pm

    Troy~ Thanks for responding and I will get back to your comments.

  77. August 20, 2011 2:18 am

    @Anonymous Aussie,

    I want to thank you for using the above post that I wrote. It validates 100% my stance on anonymous blogging. I didn’t duck anything, by the way. My point was very clear, “if the info was true or false was irrelevant, as a private corporation, the info leaked would have come from the inside, which means, someone breached their fiduciary responsibility to the company by leaking private confidential financial information.

    Which also validates my last comment, that ethics must always be the #1 priority – period!

    Now, had you taken time to read one of my latest posts, you would also know, I used MonaVie as an example of a company who lost over $100 million due to continued lawsuits, and controversy. It seems most companies who were in the middle of lawsuits lost money, distributors and reputation last year.

    As for the “whore of network marketing”, well this does show your ignorance of the situation. If you do a little digging, you might find I am the only “advocate” who doesn’t accept money for reviews of any kind. I do demand the companies send me product, marketing collateral and a shirt to wear. And based on U.S. laws I am very clear I have accepted these items.

    Another ignorant statement you make is “vested personal and financial interest” The personal you got right! I do have a personal interest in making sure I know all the facts I can find to determine how to use this situation to help others.

    As for the “financial interest”, that is the ignorant part. I am not financially or emotionally invest in this situation period. And outside of I have never commented on any site critical to network marketing or a specific individual or organization period!

    And, you might even be able to make a valid argument, if I was one of these ultra-successful big dog leaders who is earning millions a year. However, since I am not an active distributor, have never earned more than $35K in a month (one month, not multiple, and that was in 1997) then your argument on “financial interest” is without foundation.

    As for my acknowledgment of pyramid schemes, I guess you have not really read through my site. And as for the issues of Amway, surrounding Orrin and others, I have written on that subject also.

    Where you and I will never be on the same page is the fact, I do not have any personal agenda or vendetta against Orrin Woodward, TEAM or anyone past or present who might have personally harmed you or others on this site.

    I do have a personal agenda to figure out all the facts, and to write an article or series of articles which can help expose the truth of this situation in a way, that people can fully understand.

    You bring up the word “logic”, since we do not know each other personally, I can’t fully appropriate your education or lack there of, but before you start down a path talking about logic, you may want to refresh yourself on the science of critical thinking, and get a solid understanding of how one comes to a logical deduction on any subject.

    From reading your post above, I see no evidence that you want to do anything but add fuel to the fire, and keep this issue flying.

    Most of the comments I have read in this community are from people wanting to expose the truth – period.

    You, however, at least from the post above, want to shoot at me, instead of providing usable facts I can follow.

    If I have in some way harmed you personally, then feel free to share it publicly, or call me and we can discus it. I have no problem apologizing for something I may have done, if it is brought to my attention. Lord, knows I screw up on a regular basis.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  78. August 20, 2011 3:15 am

    @ WeBelieved,

    You ask some very direct and pointed questions. Each of your questions desire the same direct response. However, my responses will not be as direct as your questions because I do not have all the facts yet, nor do I have in my possession documentation to validate the accusations your questions address.

    I will write my answers below, folks will have to review your questions above to read the question.

    Troy’s Responses:

    1. The short answer is NO it would not be ethical! However, without seeing the Agreements signed (if there were any), I can’t know for sure the full extend of the situation. But, if the situation happened in the manner the question is posed, then this would go against all the things I stand for, and this profession was built upon.

    When a promise is made, verbal or otherwise, then it must be kept (this goes on both sides). And in tis specific case, I can use Biblical foundation because the leaders of TEAM profess to be Christians. The bible is clear when a promise, covenant, commitment etc., is given it is to be fulfilled. It doesn’t say, “unless the other side holds up their end of the agreement.”

    2. Short answer NO, it is not ethical, or legal! If this situation took place, then based on current contract law, it might be able to be presented in a civil case, that the contracts were signed under extreme circumstances and are not binding. If two parties sign any form of agreement, each party MUST be provided with originals, or valid copies of the originals with signatures and/or initials on each page.

    Sadly, this is common practice, not just in network marketing but in every industry. Very few people read what they sign, because they feel under some form of time restraint. From buying a home, car or signing distributor agreements, this is an issue. But to not be given copies or time to have an attorney to review them, is ethically wrong. And, if the company refuses to provide signed copies when requested in writing (I hope sent certified mail), then there may be a potential civil action available, or a class action depending on the amount of people this may have happened to.

    3. Only answer NO! As a Board member of the Association of Network Marketing Professionals, and as an independent advocate, we (I) fight this all the time. Sadly, most network marketing attorneys have written into the P&Ps the fact the company can change the P&Ps at will.

    On several occasions, the association has been instrumental in getting this policy removed or in a couple of cases have fought for the distributors to get a specific change in policies thrown out when it harmed the company distributors.

    This policy really came into play a few years ago, when the term “multiple streams of income” came into play and distributors started trying to build more than one company using the same LOS (line of sponsorship). Then when “free agents” started jumping from deal to deal based on signing bonuses, bridge loans, etc, (someone didn’t study what free agencies is all about) more companies started to add this clause.

    The reality is, that in the majority of cases, distributors, are not really distributors in some companies, but more like statutory employees (1099 captive agents). This is not an industry wide issue, but it is seen in more companies than I would like to admit.

    My personal stance on this issue, is people who join a company using a network marketing compensation plan, should be seen in the same light as a manufacturers rep. They are independent business owners, with the right to market different products to their customers.

    Where this gets sticky, is the fact, most network marketers are not taught to market their products, they are only taught to market the business opportunity, which opens a new can of worms called “internal consumption”.

    4. Short answer NO it is not ethical! Having worked on the inside of the world’s largest tools company in the history of network marketing ProSTEP, I can say it is easy to disclose what it will cost a person on an annual basis. In our case we had three levels of membership and the distributor decided which fit their budget. We also disclosed the benefits of each membership, and as the distributor grew their primary business, they were able to upgrade their membership. In our case, we also made it easy for folks to upgrade, by providing a three and free compensation model.

    But, I need to disclose, we did not try and compete with any of the network marketing companies, by providing regional events, and annual conventions. Our goal was to purely, help the distributor build and cover the costs of all their marketing expenses.

    It is also the distributors responsibility to ask other distributors what it is costing them, so they can determine if they can afford the cost of membership.

    Now, as for the last sentence of your question, I am not sure I fully understand it. If you are asking does the company need to disclose their profit for the ticket, NO! If you are asking does the company need to disclose specific people are being paid to market the event, and you may not get the same opportunity, then YES, I would think ethically this should be disclosed. The FTC has advertising and endorsement rules in place which might even cover this type of situation. But, again I am not sure I fully understand your last sentence.


    Now with all that said, if anyone feels this has happened to them, I would strongly suggest looking into a class action lawsuit. There are a handful of attorneys who fight for distributors rights, and are willing to take on these types of fights under a class action situation.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  79. John permalink
    August 20, 2011 8:48 am

    Troy thanks for your answers. I think most of us here feel we got scammed and deceived. We have no way to address our grieveances. And the Team leaders are tyrants who crush any opposition with verbal assaults and shunning. Basically, no one has any way to protest if they feel they were hurt or wronged. The leaders of the Team are never wrong.This blog is the only way we have to express our feelings. Thanks for lilstening.

  80. August 20, 2011 9:08 am

    @Anonymous Aussie – Let’s try to keep the conversation as civil, please. I’m giving @Troy the benefit of the doubt here and think that he’s earnestly attempting to understand this situation.

  81. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2011 11:28 am


    I too want to thank you for trying to understand and investigating this situation. I will say this, you have your work cut out for you and in that process you will be shocked; as we all were went the truth of this corruption began to show up.

    As I said, Orrin has many fooled by his self-proclaimed status and size of the TEAM, which by the way he wouldn’t have those numbers if most of the leaders on here didn’t build it for him to claim that status! There is much more that isn’t even on this blog, that is unethical, immoral, and probably illegal that others don’t know about.

    You will see a lot of hurt & anger tied to this situation my many people, myself included, but when people have been this severly damaged, betrayed, and oppressed in more ways than financial, without any resolution, and have to sit back and watch more destruction being done, then not only is it natural but human.

    It may appear to you and others as some ‘vendetta’ but this for me personally and I believe most if not all, it is about EXPOSING the TRUTH, JUSTICE, and it is the HEART & PRINCIPLE of the matter, to help prevent others from what we know will be devastating.

    We all know what Orrin is capable of and if you read the Qrush blog, whether you believe it or not, there should be no doubt in your mind why all of us need to remain anonymous at least for now. Orrin is still trying to destroy and make people’s lives and ruin their credibility and character, any one that he believes is ‘against’ him, or has influence that could tell the truth, he will not let up until he has destroyed them.

    I certainly will be curious to see now that you’re involved in getting to the bottom of this, what is in store for you? Orrin is quite predictable. I wouldn’t be surprise if you start being attacted in some anonymous way.

    We have personally witnessed and experienced ourselves the excruitating pain of betrayal perpatrated on us and many others; experienced and watched the destruction of our leaders us included and teams, thousands of people who were at the mercy of our PC and Orrin dictating that damage.

    And YES, what webelieved has told you about the herding people in to sign that contract that NO ONE received; is the TRUTH. That is the same contract I stated in my post to you earlier that we too asked for and they would NOT give us a copy, this was after they stole our profit-sharing and teams also!

    The Contract: It was at a Go-Diamond weekend and there were 1000 people there according to the PC. If I am remembering correctly, that was the one even Kate Vincent was at from the Quixtar/Amway Corp, who was the teams’ personal rep.

    Thx for your time and responses.

  82. August 20, 2011 4:49 pm


    I personally believe in full disclosure period. I also believe it is only ethical for folks at every level to disclose any financial benefit they will gain from promoting tools, seminars, etc.

    As a matter of fact the current FTC Advertising and Endorsement Rules “16 CFR Part 255” may cover this specific situation if the TEAM website or marketing material, or the speakers are promoting tools and events and are NOT disclosing their financial gain:

    It should be understood, I may very well be the most conservative advocate in network marketing. I believe one should always error on the side of ethics and caution, than to walk in a gray area.

    Promoting tools along side a primary network marketing business opportunity is a very slippery slope.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  83. August 20, 2011 6:01 pm


    By any chance does anyone have a copy of the profit sharing agreement I could review? If so please send to my email please.

    For that matter any documentation you feel can be beneficial would be great.

    Respecting the fact you all for the time being wish to remain anonymous, I can gladly sign a NDA or feel free to blackout your information and use a throw away email address. Or just send to Amthrax and they can send to me.

    And, I will be sending a short list of distributor attorneys first of the week.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  84. August 20, 2011 6:20 pm


    Continuation of answer to your questions.

    6. Short answer NO! However, this raises some additional questions from me. If all of a sudden profit sharing was cut, do you know for sure it was only cut for a specific few, or for all? Second, was there a drop in revenue to the company? Third since this is profit sharing, I must assume this income is based on the net profit after all legal expenses, and from what I have read the legal expenses until this year were very costly.

    Since TEAM is a privately held company, and does not (or at least until this new launch) use a traditional compensation program, it is really hard to determine how they might determine the profit sharing split.

    7. There is no short answer! Because you asked several questions in one, on this I can’t give you a short answer. To the first part of the questions, I find it unethical and maybe illegal based on contract law, to not provide the formula used to determine your profit sharing. At the very least it is completely outside the accounting standards in the USA.

    This does raise a question for me. If you are entitled to receive profits of the company, is there some SEC regulation which might come into play protecting a specific class of shareholders. I am not an SEC expert, but from years working with Primerica I do remember studying that different classes are treated and protected in different ways.

    As for the second part of the question on showing profit/loss, on the surface I am not sure this is unethical. This goes way beyond my core competency to answer. On the surface I would think, some statement of profit/loss would be given to show why you are receiving or not receiving profits based on your agreement. But without seeing the agreement, or understanding better the accounting standard which would apply, I just can’t give you a cut and dry answer on this.

    8. Short answer NO! I have written several articles and addressed this very issue in videos. It doesn’t matter to me what the deal is. If a deal is cut it must be disclosed. And, it you review the FTC Standards, you can quickly see, if a person receives a deal, and doesn’t disclose it, they just might be in a violation of the above rules.

    I know that several attorneys and company owners will disagree with me on this issue. But, if we are going to make sure this profession is fair to all, then we must disclose all deals.

    There may be a time when a company owner feels a deal is warranted and it is cut. Although, I have never understood paying a person for work they have already been paid on by another company. I digress, sorry!

    Full disclosure is what we expect in personal relationships, and it is what we should demand in business relationships.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2011 6:45 pm


    Under webelieve #6 Orrin stated to the masses that he was ONLY using HIS OWN money for the lawsuits, therefore the lawsuits had nothing to do with the profit-sharing either way.

  86. August 20, 2011 7:19 pm

    @Speak The Truth,

    I’ll tell you when I first was contacted about this site, I did figure I would come across some dull, negative, dissolution crybabies. But as I started to read other posts, and the comments, and saw the type of emotions that were vented through out this community, it soon became very clear, that whatever has happened, and to some degree is still happening, is real, and not just some made up conspiracy. The pain and hurt I have seen expressed here is not from negative people, but from people who have to some degree had their hearts broken and have decided “we’re not going to take it any more.”

    I’ll admit, I am still far from fully understanding everything, and as I take notes, and start drawing this situation out on the white board, I am left with more questions than answers, but I am going to continue to dig into this to figure it all out, if I can. As a matter of fact tomorrow I will be talking to a former TEAM member who happens to be a friend and lives here on the island with me.

    You mention “building it for him” Art Williams use to tell us “never call them your team. You didn’t build the team they did, you were just blessed to know a couple of people smarter and more likable than yourself!” It took me years to fully understand what he meant. It always amazes me how many people claim to have built the same organization 🙂

    I find interesting something you wrote “I certainly will be curious to see now that you’re involved in getting to the bottom of this, what is in store for you? ” You are the third person who has mentioned this to me in the last few days. The other two were live conversations, and they were very concerned that I was digging into this situation.

    I do understand where you and the others are coming from. However, the difference as I see it, is I am not attached in any way to this situation or the outcome, other than wanting to make sure the truth is found, and that others can learn from this situation, and if possible we can stop it from happening to others in any organization.

    I would hope it doesn’t happen, but if it does, I have taken some proactive steps to address it head on. And between you and me, if it does, it will help to validate the position of this community in my eyes.

    Thank you for your willingness to give me room to review this situation and the openness you and others have shown to me. I know I am the outsider here in your community and I will not disrespect your home.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  87. No Team For Me permalink
    August 20, 2011 8:07 pm

    Your participation on this site is greated appreciated. It appears you are sincere in your desire to learn the truth. Keep researching and I think you will be even more confident in the belief that the people on this site are definitely not crybaby losers as TEAM wants people to believe. But rather some of the most respected leaders in TEAM when we were a part of it. I believe if you add up the collective groups of several of us on here, you would find that at times we were a high percentage of TEAM’s total numbers, new pins and tool movers in all of TEAM.

    We are not just people who tried it for a few months and had a few dozen people on our team. We’re talking years of effort and in many cases hundreds and thousands in our groups.

    Please post the list of attorneys. You may be on to something with the class action lawsuit idea.

    Also, please post an email and fax number for a copy of the contract.

  88. Arturo permalink
    August 20, 2011 8:31 pm

    Troy, please understand you will be contacted by Orrin and he is a master manipulator. He will tell a wonderful story he shared with us about growing up as a poor child from Michigan and learning from Dexter and following is hero Billy Florence and Randy Haugen and how these guys later turned against him just like everyone else on here. He has told people Billy Florence sold out to Amway during his lawsuit and Randy Haugen left because he wanted more money. The truth is those guys left like us because they learned Orrin is a pathological liar and manipulator with a god complex. He has a trail of broken relationships longer than can be listed and he is the common thread. Watch out, he will tell a different story. He will mix 5% truth so it seems to make sense and the rest will be his ideas, perceptions, and in most cases flat out lies. He lives above the law and is accountable to no one. He needs to woo you to see his side of the story so you will defend him and calm this group down. This group knows the truth first hand and will not rest. One final word of warning, once you say anything that Orrin thinks is negative against him or his business you will be tarred and feathered. I follow your blog and know you try to be objective as you report on the industry. This story will be your greatest challenge yet. Don’t fall for the Christian act, Orrin will try to ruin you. Have you ever read a Grisham novel? Read up, you are now in one.

  89. John permalink
    August 20, 2011 9:02 pm

    Mr. Dooly, I want to share this list with you that was posted by someone else on this blog. It helps to show the list of key Team leaders who have come to see that they were misled and in many cases out right deceived by the the top three leaders at Team. This list is probably not accurate in that it needs to be updated. If anyone else has anyone else to put on this list it would be helpful. And you need to remember there are hundreds if not thousands of the lilttle people who have stories of abuse and manipulation that if you heard even a few of them would shock you.

    These people all left with utter disgust!!!!!

    Updated List – RT Members:
    Jeff Granger
    Raquel Peters
    Dan Abraham
    Pat Edwards
    Greg Rau
    Tom Cullen
    John & Melanie Morgan
    Pat & Lisa Semple
    Janel Brost
    Brian Rodman
    Matt Zimmerman
    Don & Chris Freese
    Matt & Cherly Abraham

    PC Members:
    Randy & Val Haugen – PC
    Billy & Peggy – PC
    Mark Crawford – PC
    Lance Smith – PC
    Chuck Goetschel – PC

    Team Office:
    CEO – Bob Dickie
    Chief Legal Counsel – Kevin Thompson
    Bob Cassidy (another executive at the office)
    Team Legacy: CEO – Ron Simmons

    Orrin’s Mentor/Pastor:
    Pastor Dickie

    [Editor’s Note: As of Aug 2011, Pat Edwards is still a part of TEAM though no longer on the speaking list.]

  90. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2011 10:32 pm

    Troy ~

    Thanks again, we appreciate your understanding and just to clarify, there has been 2 diifferent contracts. The multi-page one webelieved and I spoke of that was signed before the ‘new’, current director one they are using now. We never got a copy of either one and honestly the 2nd doesn’t matter because I have no doubts it was to cover their butts, they changed it for a reason.

    Orrin also said, that when they voided the old contract out, and were in with the new one, that they were going to a ‘voting by peers’, ‘like a law firm.’ In other words you could bring them thousands of ‘customers’ has they started calling them, and bring them hundreds of thousands in revenue, and for whatever reason (they don’t like you, you aren’t obeying, your upline needs a raise) whatever it maybe, they will just ‘vote you out of profit-sharing!’

    Now what do you make of those ethics?

    Just to give you an idea, how Orrin handles things, you could read on his blog the comments he has made to the anonymous ‘critics’ that apparently commented, although I didn’t see where they commented (he must have not posted them, surprise) he addresses them though, as the ‘nice’ guy he is.

    It is a classic example of how he treats people, just another confirmation to stay anonymous for now. One of his worn out statements that he never practices is;” Seek to understand first”, you can be the judge if that is what you see.

  91. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2011 11:06 pm

    I happen to agree with Arturo and the warnings are not to insult intellegence, but a master manipulator can catch those who are true off guard, just ask us. It to give some warning and understanding, to help be prepared, and to take very seriously, what we all know is the best advice.

    Although, I think the call will come from one of the PC; his fall guy, because Orrin has them do his dirty work. It isn’t by any stretch of the imagination the manipulation and games will begin.

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 21, 2011 10:06 am

    I should clarify the 2nd one doesn’t matter in our specific case, I didn’t mean to say it doesn’t matter to others.

  93. August 21, 2011 10:50 am

    @Speak – I think the second one (Control Time & Physical Environment) definitely applies to TEAM and other MLMs through CDs and meetings. Is that what you were talking about?

  94. August 21, 2011 3:16 pm


    My contact info is as follows:


    Fax: 1-206-339-8367 (I do not use a fax much any longer, this is my number)

    Now, I gave some thought to listing the attorneys publicly on the site, and based on what I have read here I think it will be more advantageous for me to the names to the Amthrax administrator to send privately to those concerned.

    My reason for this is simple. If I list the names on the short list, then anyone can contact those attorneys and talk to them about this situation. As soon as that happens, that person or group of person becomes the client, and the attorney’s would not be able to represent the other party(ies) involved.

    So, tomorrow I will send to the administrator.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  95. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 21, 2011 4:02 pm

    Amthrax~ Sorry I was addressing Troy on the contracts, but what you said is TRUE, along with all the other TIME and Enviromental Control. 🙂

  96. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 21, 2011 4:41 pm


    What is it you are asking eveyone to do? Are you asking for our information, names and e-mail addresses etc.?

  97. Anonymous Aussie permalink
    August 21, 2011 5:55 pm

    Amthrax, of course we’d like to given Troy the benefit of the doubt. My apologies for the uncivil language and tone to both you and Troy.

    But…I’d say it would be just a little naïve to believe that Troy has anyone’s best interests at heart given firstly, he is an advocate of the network marketing industry which is NOT be confused with a consumer advocate.

    Pardon my scepticism also taking into consideration that Troy has confirmed that Orrin Woodward is in fact a friend (as per the attached video) and his lack of concern regarding the fact that Orrin did confirm that retail selling made up less than 4% of Amway’s revenue. CLEARLY Orrin isn’t in the business of selling fruit juice – he is a seller of tools. Therefore, how can it not be of a concern to Troy as to how much of his friend’s revenue and that of his highest ranked are derived from selling the dream of financial freedom and namely, selling this via motivational tools.

    I further remain unconvinced given Troy’s clear bias towards the industry (or inadequacies on the topic of pyramid schemes?) which have resulted in him failing to identify Orrin’s own tools business as a pyramid scam within the pyramid scam (as accurately described by Forbes – a far more reputable and unbiased source of information than Mr Dooly himself), noting Orrin has more than demonstrated his expertise in pyramid hustling when you consider the manner he and TEAM teach distributors to manipulate the system within Monavie through bonus buying and rank buying – rather than SELLING products to those not associated with the scheme which is what a bona-fide direct selling company would focus on doing.

    Perhaps it’s Troy’s bias towards the industry (or inadequacy) when he failed to call out TVI Express as a pyramid scam – and this is despite several countries, including Australia, which have ruled it as being an illegal pyramid scheme. Troy instead refers to this as being a scam on the basis of private registry of the URL, no USA base of operation, lack of ownership disclosure and that various bodies such as the SEC, FTC and State Attorney Generals have targeted online travel companies as MLM scams!!!!!

    Pardon also my scepticism taking into consideration, as per my previous link, where we heard Troy blatantly distort facts concerning the part Dallin Larsen played in the demise of Dynamic Essentials as Vice President of Sales and Marketing. This is also despite the fact that there are recordings available to the public where Dallin himself is heard to illegally promote Royal Tongan Limu as a disease cure.

    Once again, pardon my scepticism regarding Troy’s desire for the truth taking into consideration we have heard him suggest Monavie distributors can refer to a study whereby RATS were the tests subjects and no less undertaken by Monavie’s own Schauss for the promotion of the chemically preserved fruit punch as a treatment for cardiovascular disease – not withstanding the fact that doing so would be entirely dishonest and in gross violation of the company’s own Policies and Procedures and the LAW.

    But hey, stranger things have happened.

    I too wait in great anticipation as to Troy’s reply with respect to the concerns outlined by the above former TEAM members – though, I personally will NOT be holding my breath.

  98. August 21, 2011 6:18 pm


    Not sure I understand where this question came from. I am NOT asking for any personal info, nor have I.

    Please explain.

  99. No Team For Me permalink
    August 21, 2011 6:47 pm

    Steve – it was us who asked Troy for his information, not him asking us for ours. We wanted a way to contact him. He has not solicited anything from any of us.

  100. Anonymous Aussie permalink
    August 22, 2011 4:52 am

    In my previous post I stated –

    “Once again, pardon my scepticism regarding Troy’s desire for the truth taking into consideration we have heard him suggest Monavie distributors can refer to a study whereby RATS were the tests subjects and no less undertaken by Monavie’s own Schauss for the promotion of the chemically preserved fruit punch as a treatment for cardiovascular disease – not withstanding the fact that doing so would be entirely dishonest and in gross violation of the company’s own Policies and Procedures and the LAW.”

    Please allow me to rephrase this….

    Once again, pardon my scepticism regarding Troy’s desire for the truth taking into consideration we have heard him suggest that Monavie distributors can refer to a mouse study undertaken by Monavie’s own Dr Schauss (NOT by the USDA as he wrongly states) as being proof of the company’s claims (hmmm) that this chemically preserved fruit punch “can help” – the insinuation being that it can help with cardiovascular health! This of course is despite the fact that making such claims would be entirely dishonest and in gross violation of the company’s own Policies and Procedures and the LAW.

    In addition that, I can’t help but notice one of Troy’s previous discussions where he states “I have reviewed this company inside and out, and have never seen any cure claims.” (see his comment of September 29, 2010 @ 2:31pm of the below link) and which appears to be in stark contrast to the claim he made in the above video.

    Not that I’m not giving him the benefit of the doubt in this instance…but just sayin…. 🙂

  101. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 22, 2011 5:28 am

    I guess I misunderstood. I’m about as sharp as a bowling ball. Lol

  102. August 22, 2011 6:49 am

    @Anonymous Aussie,

    Your apology is accepted! And, since you brought up some interesting concerns, I’ll address those, so anyone who doesn’t want to go back and read all the above posts. This does take time away from the main objective, but to be expected from time to time, and very understandable. Especially since I am writing under my true name, and anything and everything I have ever written or said can and will be used by others to validate their positions and beliefs.

    1. Your misunderstanding of advocacy work. Although you are correct that I do not call myself a “consumer advocate” which is a broad term and and cover anything. I am very specific that I love the people who make up what is commonly refereed to as MLM/Network Marketing or just plain direct sales.

    So, let’s look at just the main word in the phrase I use “The Network Marketing Advocate”

    ad·vo·cate – [v. ad-vuh-keyt; n. ad-vuh-kit, -keyt] Show IPA verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing, noun
    –verb (used with object)
    1. to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly: He advocated higher salaries for teachers.
    2. a person who speaks or writes in support or defense of a person, cause, etc. (usually followed by of ): an advocate of peace.
    3. a person who pleads for or in behalf of another; intercessor.
    4. a person who pleads the cause of another in a court of law.

    Now if you or anyone takes just a little time to study my public or private stance on the issues surrounding the whole profession, you will quickly see I never waver.

    2. Yes, I have confirmed I classify Orrin as a friend. I have also made it clear, that I am also friends with folks who do not see eye-to-eye with Orrin. And if you look close you will also see I call Rod Cook a mentor, and Len Clements a friend, and these two never seem to agree on anything. I also count network marketing critic Michael Collins as a friend. I am one who believes it is better to have friends, then enemies.

    I also stand on a philosophy I learned from Dr. John Maxwell years ago. My interpretation: “When dealing with someone who sees the majority of life different than you, find the 1% you can agree on, and give it 100% of your effort.” I try to do this with everyone I meet. SOmetimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t.

    3. As to your purported statement (You did not provide a link) “Orrin did confirm that retail selling made up less than 4% of Amway’s revenue.” Why would I respond to that statement? In and of itself, it is not accurate, and it does not come from any Amway documentation. Nor does it have anything to do with the concerns at hand.

    3b. On the topic of tools companies and the amount of money made off the masses, I have written and spoke on this in great detail. Sometime you might want to review my stance on this issue. You can listen to hours of radio shows, videos and articles written. And to make it very clear, since you did not seem to read the above comments. “The companies themselves should control tools, and they should be provided to just cover the costs of production. I also listed two companies which do it right.

    Can you explain what the editorial I did on “Backroom Deals” has to do with the topic at hand?

    4. Before I address this concern, let’s make it very clear, companies who use a direct selling marketing channel are NOT pyramids. However, in some cases, the compensation structures they create, can and many times do fall under the legal definition of pyramid structures. And even some of the largest companies who do not enforce the sale of product to end users outside of the compensation plan, can be hit by a regulatory agency as a pyramid, where the majority of commissions paid are tracked to JUST internal consumption. This is a gray area that I wish we had a stronger legal conclusion on.

    4a. I think part of our disconnect is on the fact I have not personally attacked Orrin for his tool business. On that stance you are 100% correct. Instead I have focused on ALL the tool companies and my concern with the fact, when you mix and match a primary business with a tools business, I think it raises ethical and legal concerns. Again, if you were really interested my where I stand on the main issues, and not just the fact I don;t go out of my way to defame people, you would know this.

    4b. 🙂 Forbes is a great magazine, and like most magazines who accept advertising dollars, their articles tend to fall in line with the advertisers in that issue, or at the very least the theme of the issue. Since you did not link to the article I can’t respond on it. I can tell you the DSA has had some great articles in Forbes in the past, and Forbes has listed for years in the Richest 400, some great founders of companies who use a direct selling marketing channel.

    4c. You seem to think I am coming across unbiased where it concerns the network marketing profession. Let’s get this right, I am 100% biased on showing folks this is a great business channel when used correctly, and when the motivation of the company owner and top field leaders is to move a unique product through an independent field force of people who are focused on reaching their personal objectives.

    Where I am unbiased is on the topic at hand. Again, if you took the time to review my whole track record instead of trying to just use sound bites, you would quickly find that I am far from perfect. You will also find, I am always open minded, and when new facts are presented, I report on those. Even when my new report will be different than my original findings.

    4d. I have also made it very clear my stance on “bonus buying” and “rank buying”. Although I used the standard terms used in the profession. And if MonaVie, Orrin or any other company of leader promotes this type of business model, then it’s unethical, and not what their marketing channel was created to promote.

    This type of business building is done as a deck of cards, and goes against the majority of P&Ps created. And all the P&Ps created by the tip consultants and attorneys in the business.

    It is this very business concept that has gotten some top leaders terminated over the years, and companies shut down by the FTC, SEC and state AGs.

    5. Well it seems that finally your focus on discrediting me as an unbiased network marketing advocate, has blinded you to some major facts.

    1. The link you used is irrelevant to your statement on TVI Express.
    2. Your blindness (inadequacy) to prove your point and get folks to see things your way, caused you to miss the HUGE TRUTH on my stance on TVI Express. So let me help you sport!

    6. Again, my reports on any companies are not relevant to the topic at hand. Sure they can be used to try and distort my reason for being here. But I could say, they are used to distract people from the real concern at hand.

    As for Dallin and Dynamic Essentials, I’ve never done any deep review or report on the subject. As you show above I did use some public info in the report, and I did keep the focus on the topic at hand.

    And my public and private stance on “Stating anything is a cure” is clear. To date the only company I know who can make a quote of this type is Youngevity, who has FDA approval.

    Again, your agenda to discredit me, instead of working to resolve this current issue, has caused you to miss the full picture.

    7. You are 100% correct I did mention a recent study conducted by the United States Department of Agriculture on one of the MonaVie products. I linked to the small press release on the MonaVie site, and called this a positive for distributors.

    You seem to focus on MonaVie, I focused on the distributors. Since the study, based on the MonaVie website was conducted by the USDA, I believe this will be a positive for the distributors who use the products and are marketing the products.

    I do not have any problem with MonaVie or a 3rd party governmental agency doing anything to prove or disprove a product can help people and their health.

    Your point is baseless to prove I am unbiased on this issue. And your lack of stating the real facts are very unprofessional.

    Again, I accept your apology.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  103. August 22, 2011 6:51 am

    @Anonymous Aussie,

    You mention waiting for my responses on the above concerns. Which concerns have I not addressed that you are concerned with?

  104. August 22, 2011 6:53 am

    @Anonymous Aussie,

    I forgot to link to the Press Release here for you. It seems you do not read the articles under the videos.

  105. August 22, 2011 8:13 am

    @We Believed,

    Great question and I will gladly answer it.

    First let me share a few links where folks if they desire can see where our friendship started and all I have ever mentioned about Orrin. You can also checkout the Radio Show where Jim Gillhouse and I have interviewed Orrin in the past.

    Here is the link to the category on MonaVie. Although this is more focused on MonaVie, I do reference Orrin a few times.

    Here is a specific category on Servant Leaders, and where I did a piece on Orrin a few years ago.

    My friendship with Orrin started when I wrote an article on Randy Schroeder leaving Agel and the rumors of millions being paid directly from MonaVie to Randy.

    Orrin reached out because I had mentioned the issue of “free agency” and that fact Orrin and others had left their respective companies.

    In reviewing court documents and things written publicly, I made it public I thought the moves to MonaVie by top leaders (not just Orrin) was for reasons besides just money.

    It was through these articles Orrin reached out to me, and throughout the last few years we have built a friendship.

    Orrin and I have never met personally, nor would I say I can tell you what color eyes he has, his kid’s names or the type of boat or car he drives.

    What I can tell you that based on what he has written in his books, I liked him and Chris, and for they they stand for in these books. I have read several of his articles and listened to many training videos.

    SO, my friendship is NOT based on investing quality time with him or his family personally one-on-one, which it takes to grow a personal relationship.

    Now, with that said, I do have personal relationships, with several former and maybe a couple current TEAM members (no one at corporate or an field executive level), where I can tell you what they are doing today, when their current baby was born, and what their personal gut feeling is on different topics we talk about.

    To me, a personal friendship is far different than a personal relationship. As an example; I have several personal friendships at church, but only a handful of personal relationships where we share deep details on each others lives.

    If this is not clear, or more questions come from my comment, please feel free to ask.

    I understand “Trust is Earned, Never Given!” so I do not have any problems answering any question.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  106. August 22, 2011 8:33 am

    @ We Believed,

    This is in response to the second part of your comment on companies paying folks.

    Each industry which is represented in the direct selling channel has different reporting (or lack there of) standards. Some have to report these deals, while others would not.

    My stance has been and always will be that if a company is going to promote “free agency” then it must truly use the free agency system as it has been created.

    1. A free agent, doesn’t become a free agent, when they decide they want to be one. Itis when their original contract is coming to an end.
    2. The original company usually has an option to match any deal made from the outside.
    3. All deals are made public, and disclosed.

    I’m married to an inspirational romance writer, when she is given a contract to write a new book or series of books, it is disclosed, not kept secret.

    I believe distributors at all levels deserve to be paid what they are worth based on their genuine servant leadership. What I do not agree with is that distributors are paid twice for work done in the past.

    1. If you, me or anyone has facilitated the growth of a team which has made history, then we should be honored as a leader (not a manager) who has developed other leaders who built out team, no matter what rank you might have attained.

    2. If a leader (company founder) comes along and offers you a new challenge to do it again, and you understand, you can’t take your old team (this is unethical) and you believe you can build it organically with a new team, but the company gives you some form of financial incentive, then it must be disclosed.

    I should also mention, I know of at least one company founder, who is still earning a fantastic income from his last distributorship, and in launching his new company never touched one of his former team members.

    I also know of a company owner, who in Sept, will launch what might be a one of a kind incentive, where the only deal he will be giving is equity in the company. But to gain this equity a person at any and all levels must produce. Nothing comes free or for past performance.

    Bottom line Full Disclosure at all levels is the only ethical way to grow a business!

    Living An Epic Adventure,


    p.s. I believe I am making new friends here, and would hope that someday we can grow a personal relationship.

  107. John permalink
    August 22, 2011 9:20 am

    Everyone, Troy Dooly has been honest in suggesting his friendship with Orrin Woodward has been at a level that has not allowed him to see Orrin up close and personal. If that were the case he would see what all of us have seen. I’m not bothered by Mr. Dooly’s trying to figure out why we all have such deep feelings about our time and experience with this man. If he comes to a conclusion that differs with ours so what. The truth does not change because a person here or there may take a different view. We all KNOW the truth about OW and his fellow companions!!!!

    Mr. Dooly, do you see from reading on this blog that many former Team members have deep, deep, hurts, scars and traumatic experiences with this man? I hope you can see that the feelings we all have are not some little thing based on a minor misunderstanding. Orrin dismisses all of us as losers and whinners who could not make it in his business. This is not the case. Most of us here have had a measure of success but saw the corruption, and how what we built could be taken from us or fall apart before our very eyes.

    Let’s not get side tracked from the real issues of this particular post. Who is Qrush? Is it Orrin Woodward? If it is Orrin, it is very damning because just a few years ago, not when he was a young impressionable teenager, he made the most hateful, homophobic, and vulgar comments on that blog. Everyone, don’t lose sight of that! Orrin has been open recently to try to clean up his damaged image. Well, all he needs to do is say, I was or I was not Qrush. If he says he was then he has some major explaining to do. If he says he is not then some of the people on here feel they know otherwise. And if they have any evidence they should tells us. From what I have read so far I believe all the evidence points to the fact that Orrin is the infamous Mr. Qrush. Either way I think he is caught in a dilemma. If he is Qrush he has major explaining to do. If he denies he is Qrush he will be called a liar. Either way he needs to tell the truth.

  108. August 22, 2011 9:35 am

    @john is correct. I would like to steer the conversation back towards the question whether or not Orrin = Qrush.

    I will take @Troy at his word that he is earnestly investigating this by reading all of the posts on TEAM and Orrin Woodward on this site.

  109. August 22, 2011 9:37 am

    @webelieved and all – which groups in TEAM decided to stay in Amway? Were there groups (i.e. INA) that we going to join TEAM and ultimately decided not do during the expulsion period? Was anything said about their leadership behind their backs?

  110. August 22, 2011 12:50 pm


    I have sent a short list of attorneys to Amthrax to review and pass on as they see fit.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  111. August 22, 2011 1:14 pm

    Orrin IS Qrush. Period.

    Too many people knew it was him from the beginning and he clued to many in on what he was doing, that is why he knows he cannot outright lie and say that it was not him, because he knows someone out there has PROOF against him.

    Troy Dooly, if you want to know the truth about Orrin and his Qrush days, call Billy Florence.

    Then let do a story on the homophobic, slanderous hater that Orrin is. Better yet, show people how his latest post on his blog is full of more lies as he tried spinning the truth, down playing the situation and then casting himself as a victim, all while dodging responsibility for his actions.

    Again, here are the facts:

    1) Orrin set up the blog and maintained 100% control of the blog. If he wanted to delete it back in 2005, he could have as he had the userid/password to login in his possession.

    2) Orrin was the sole author. Sure, he may have had some ideas on topics from his friends, but the fact remains the same: Orrin authored all the content.

    3) There was no team member of his that started the blog as he mentioned in his recent post. It was Orrin.

    4) There was no board supplying him faulty gossip that he spread on. He was on a mission to slander, defame and lie on a daily basis about Ty Tribble, Bo Short, Scott Larsen and many others.

  112. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 22, 2011 2:54 pm

    Mr Dooly~

    There is only one place to begin your research.Go to Orrin’s blog and YOU point blank ask him if he is Qrush.If the expected answer comes back NO, then take Will’s advice.
    Not for our sake, because we need no conformation of any of his lies, we have experienced them. We have the truth from of our experiences, because WE LIVED IT.

    But unfortuantely, there isn’t just good old fashion telling the truth by those who have something to HIDE it, quite the contrary, then it appears that it has to be turned into a full blow investigation to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, sounds a lot like a court room where the truth isn’t what prevails, where your the goal is to prove the truth tellers are liars, I have witnessed this in our so called justice system first hand also.

    Even though people are saying they were a part of dictated orders that came from Orrin on the anonymous blogging smear campaign.

    But since we live in a legalistic society and some don’t believe in telling the truth.

    Once you find out that Orrin is Qrush, and you still have doubts whether we are telling the truth about other things, then do what you need to do. It could or should be crystal clear with one simple question. Are You Qrush?

    And it only needs to be answered as YES or NO, I am or am not Qrush, no need for a parable or spinning, just yes or no!

    Good luck with your research. Until then we will continue to share what we know is the truth of our experiences.

  113. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 22, 2011 6:17 pm

    Mr. Dooly~

    Thanks for sending the short list of attorneys. Personally, we don’t believe in suing people, but when it comes to dealing with someone who violated every thing Orrin and others have, and we already know they will never take responsibilty to fix those things, pay retribution for what they have destoryed and stolen, then what other options or choices are left?

  114. August 22, 2011 6:57 pm

    @Speak Your Truth,

    Please call me Troy 🙂

    Litigation should always be the last resort in any issue. Sadly, as I read through all the blogs, it is easy to tell, mediation is out of the question.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  115. No Team For Me permalink
    August 22, 2011 7:42 pm

    Amthrax – I am not aware of any of the TEAM people who stayed with Amway. The Team people felt a lot of pressure to follow Orrin.

    Fred Harteis started to go with TEAM but Fred was not in Orrin’s downline. Fred was a huge leader in Dexter Yager’s downline.

    Although Fred did not go with Team, somehow Orrin was able to get Fred’s brother Jerry (Diamond in Amway) and Greg Johnson (Diamond in Amway) to leave Amway and then Orrin was able to position them as needed in his MonaVie downline (Im sure to help someone qualify for a MonaVie level who would not have qualified without them).

    The same thing happened with Bill & Jan Newton, Jim & Kathy Paullin, lots of Diamonds under Don & Nancy Wilson, Roger Sitcler and many other former Amway Diamonds who left their original upline to become a part of Orrin’s MonaVie business but were not in Orrin’s original Amway business. Most of these Diamonds had been Diamond years before Orrin ever got involved in Amway.

  116. August 22, 2011 8:46 pm

    @No Team For Me, or anyone,

    From early Court records, I thought Amway stated less than 50K of the 150K in the TEAM downline left. Now I could be mistaken because it has been so long.

    I do know I had first reported only 15K left Amway and went to MonaVie, then was informed the number was higher.

    I state that, because I am a little confused on if all the downline was part of TEAM or were there different leaders running their own organizations also, under Orrin?

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  117. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 22, 2011 9:15 pm


    There were numerous big Amway Diamonds that were Never apart of Orrin’s LOS, then went into MV under Orrin. As far as I know they never disclosed this and still don’t and for sure not from a stage. I do not know where Orrin specifically put all these Diamonds and their legs but explains his Presidential Black Diamond posititon.

    I do not know where these legs were put because, our groups never got anyone of these legs, but who knows they could be above us or maybe someone else knows who the favorites were they distributed them to.

    Those leaders were; Billy Florence, Randy Haugen, Effie Reed, Chuck Goechel, Lance Smith, Claude Hammilton, Mark Crawford, those are some of the major ones, and you can add the ones ‘No Team For Me’ just spoke of in the above post. I know I am missing a lot, but someone else can name more, I am sure. None of them were in Orrin’s original downline.

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 22, 2011 9:26 pm

    BTW ALL of them leaders with the exception of Claude Hamilton, have all left the TEAM.

  119. August 23, 2011 7:12 am

    That’s because Claude recognizes a good tool scam when he sees one.

  120. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 23, 2011 9:29 am

    Will~ Like attracks Like. 🙂

  121. August 23, 2011 10:25 am


    As I read through the posts and comments here and elsewhere, something has stood out to me. I brought this privately to Amthrax first to see if I had missed something, and they referred me back to the community.

    I have not witnessed the same emotions poured out towards Chris Brady as I do Orrin Woodward, and I respectfully would like to ask why? It seems they have been partners since the very beginning of the TOD days forward to LIFE.

    Living An Epic Adventure,

  122. August 23, 2011 11:03 am

    @Everyone, the reason for Adam .vs Troy is that sometimes I am logged in to my account and forget to logout. Sorry for the confusion.

    I’ll double check from now on 🙂

    Living An Epic Adventure


  123. John permalink
    August 23, 2011 11:43 am

    Chris Brady and Tim Marks are merely yes men to Orrin. They have very little say in anythilng. But they do Orrin’s dirty work.They go out and defend and promote whatever Orrin does. They have no conscience. Both of these men use Christianity to justify much of what they do but they are just as corrupt and crooked ar their leader. I think if they ever had doubts or feelings about what they are doing they have so dulled their conscience that they can’t think strait anymore. Besides they like the lifestyle that this unethical business gives them. I’m sure there are plenty of stories about these two as well. But as it has been said, Orrin is the real heart of the corruption.

  124. August 23, 2011 12:28 pm


    I can see I hit a nerve, and I am truly sorry. I did not mean to add salt to an open wound.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  125. Dorothry permalink
    August 23, 2011 7:40 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  126. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 23, 2011 11:13 pm

    Orrin is the Supreme Leader….umm…Guru..(insert snort/cough/choke)…thus he will,…”Take responsibiity for their(his) actions for their(his decisions.” Thus..”Taking responsibility means holding oneself to a standard of results.” “If Leaders don’t like the outcomes, they make changes, taking full responsibility for implementing those changes. If something goes wrong they take the blame……”

    Page 73…Launching a Leadership Revolution. (It was a NY TImes Best Seller, you know….)

  127. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 7:13 am

    Orrin used to always say;

    “I won’t take the credit (lie) for your success, but I also, won’t take the credit for your failure!”

    Although he takes ALL the credit for your success and steals it literally, and claims it as HIS, there is no doubt he doesn’t take responsiblity for the 99% quaranteed failure rates! Humble, not from our experience or opinion? His words and actions speak for themselves.


    Does the MLM world ‘leaders’ claim Orrin as a Top Guru? Top 10, 15, 25, 30, as Orrin claims himself to be, promoted himself and tells the team to vote for him?

  128. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 24, 2011 8:09 am

    What Orrin is failing to see is the “online attacks” have little or nothing to do with LIfE. It has to do with more and more people seeking information on his “business” and more and more people starting to speak out about the scam that is his real business. We may be attacking the messenger, but only because the Message is the same, just with a new label, covering TEAM which was a new label covering TOD!!

  129. Troy Dooly permalink
    August 24, 2011 8:22 am

    @Speak Your Truth,

    I have never heard Orrin called an “MLM Leadership Guru” in general. He is in the top 8.9% of full-time networkers, and the top 3% to 5% who claim to have personally earned over a million dollars annually in personal income.

    Art Jonak may have used the term “Leaderhsip Guru” in his mastermind video. It is common when promoting a person to use terminology from their bio or website.

    Personally, in the last I have referred to Orrin as a servant leader, but never a “leaderhsip guru.” But i have issues with the term guru, because I do not think it sounds professional.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  130. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 9:21 am

    Fly~ I agree, how weak is that, facing brutal reality is certainly not their strength or learning from their deliberate?

    His spewed garbage just makes you shake your head and wonder if he is speaking to himself about everything, because it does apply? How interesting, ‘the increasing online attacks, He himself through the Anonymous Blogging Smear Campaign, not only attacked the Messangers but the company Quixtar/Amway. Qrush attacked the MESSAGERS. Hypocrite.

  131. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 9:24 am

    ‘deliberate corrupt’ ~ should have said.

  132. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 9:36 am


    You could go to Orrin’s blog, You will see the Guru title claims. I watched one of your video’s that you called Orrin your Mentor, and a servant leader, could you explain what your ‘mentoring consist of? Have you read or been to his blog? He also claims the ‘guru’ status;(Chris Brady & himself, only he doesn’t say his own name) in the video; that is on his blog.

  133. August 24, 2011 10:45 am

    @Speak Your Truth,

    Orrin has lots of blogs, and I have been through many, although I can’t say all of them.

    However, I thought I was clear on the answer. Outside of Art’s promo for the Mastermind, I do not know of anyone who has called Orrin an “MLM Leadership Guru” in general. I did look at his new site at wordpress just now and did not see any claim as I wrote above. There is no question Orrin has been refered to as a “leadership guru” as a general accolade.

    By all means it does not mean it hasn’t happened, I just do not know of anyone who refers to him that way. When I had him and Chris on the show, I refereed to them as the leaders of TEAM.

    As for mentoring, I was referring 100% through his written material and video material. I only have two personal mentors at this time – Richard Brooke and Tom Haupt.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  134. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 11:02 am

    Troy ~

    Yes, Orrin certainly has a lot of blogs as Amthrax has pointed out. I was referring to Orrin Woodward blogharbor (blog). #2 that Amthrax has listed in this post, sorry could have been more specific. I didn’t check all the blogs but know its on that one. Thanks for the clarification on Orrin and your mentoring.

  135. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 11:06 am

    Troy~ In the context of what the Team calls ‘mentoring’, it would mean you are specifically mentoring with him live on the phone or in person. So, that is the way anyone from the Team would understand it.

  136. August 24, 2011 11:30 am

    @Troy – no one here prior to you coming on board has used the term “MLM Leadership Guru” to describe Orrin. As you pointed out, he’s never used the term either. He calls himself a “leadership guru” and his followers do the same; but if you look at the actual sites that have given him this grand distinction, you will find that they aren’t exactly reputable institutions or accredited organizations.

  137. August 24, 2011 11:53 am

    @Speak Your Mind,

    Thank you for the clarification. I do find this very interesting, because on Art’s Video on his site, he talks about how some of his mentors were dead before he was born.

    I’ll have to study on this one a bit. I will go check out the other site.

  138. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 12:37 pm

    Yes, I noticed I put the MLM in quotation and should have left that out, but was referring to the industry as a ‘leadership guru’. Sorry for the confusion.

    Troy I am not sure what you mean or why you bring up Art’s video and his mentors that were dead before he was born?

  139. August 24, 2011 1:09 pm


    Please forgive me.

    Based on the question, “Does the MLM world ‘leaders’ claim Orrin as a Top Guru? Top 10, 15, 25, 30, as Orrin claims himself to be, promoted himself and tells the team to vote for him?”

    I assumed I was being asked if in general folks see him as an “MLM Leadership Guru.”

    Did not mean to cause any confusion.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  140. August 24, 2011 1:17 pm

    @ Speak Your Truth,

    I was responding to your question. When you made the clarification on what this community, based on Orrin’s words call mentoring, I found that completely contradictory to what he says on the video, he has on his site, where Art interviews him. Here is a link:

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  141. August 24, 2011 1:19 pm


    I am sorry for causing such confusion. I do see what you mean about the sites. I am working to trace each site to the original register to see which organizations or individuals are behind the awards.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  142. August 24, 2011 1:25 pm

    @Troy – Read this post:

    and this post by LazyMan (scroll down to the section where LM talks about the “Top 10 Leadership Guru” distinction:

  143. August 24, 2011 2:24 pm

    Troy, if you could research this guru list that Orrin uses to self-promote himself, you will find that the competition, website and people behind this whole ranking system seems to be a complete mystery.

    In fact, there are a few former team office employees who were under the impression that Orrin hired a PR firm to help he falsely create this fake awarding system with the Top 30 Leadership Guru site just so that he could self promote himself.

    This guy is a real piece of work, huh? If people won’t praise him and write positive things about him, he will pay others to make it up for him! Awesome Leader he is!

  144. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 2:26 pm

    Drooly said: “As for Dallin and Dynamic Essentials, I’ve never done any deep review or report on the subject. As you show above I did use some public info in the report, and I did keep the focus on the topic at hand.”

    That is a nutshell is why I think you’re an unreliable source for objective information. You’re too busy waving pom-poms in support of people like Mr. Larceny, but you turn a blind eye to their transgressions.

    Drooly said: “You are 100% correct I did mention a recent study conducted by the United States Department of Agriculture on one of the MonaVie products.”

    The study involved some analyses that were conducted by the Arkansas Children’s Nutrition Center, a contract research lab (i.e. pay-to-play) that is privately funded, not taxpayer subsidized. The study also featured Alex Schauss as an author; he has no affiliation with the USDA whatsoever (he’s a Monavie shill with a mail order PhD degree). Your reporting on this was typical – superficial and misleading…useless. Your worst transgression though was suggesting that Monavie distributors should use this mouse study to promote the product. That’s encouraging illegal activity, as there is virtually no way for distributors to present this study to potential customers without implying that the product has medical therapeutic benefits.

    Drooly said: “I do not have any problem with MonaVie or a 3rd party governmental agency doing anything to prove or disprove a product can help people and their health.”

    Again, the ACNC is not a governmental agency per se. It is a privately funded contract research lab. Secondly, a study in mice neither proves nor disproves ANYTHING about the health of PEOPLE. Why don’t you give your mouth an occasional break and let your brain do some work.

  145. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 3:06 pm

    Thanks. I never left you, friend. I’ve been quietly sitting back marveling at all the amazing comments and the wonderful community that’s evolved here. This has turned into something truly remarkable — so honest; so powerful. Reminds me of the Green Revolution. I think you all know what I mean; you can just feel it in the air.

    Huge thanks as always to Amthrax for sacrificing his time and providing this unique venue, and my utmost respect to all the regular posters for sharing so much of themselves. It can’t be easy. I applaud you all.

  146. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 3:35 pm

    Drooly said: “And my public and private stance on ‘Stating anything is a cure’ is clear.”

    OMG, the arrogance. Clear to whom exactly? Do you think you’re even remotely famous enough that everyone here would immediately know your public stance on every issue (let alone your private stance…how the F would we know that?). Maybe you’re running for POTUS now. Perhaps you’ll clarify that stance for those that missed your campaign speech.

    Your response above was ambiguous and filled with weasel words. Does your stance apply LITERALLY to “stating anything is a cure”, or are you just a bit fuzzy on the proper use and meaning of quotation marks.

    I think what you meant to say, without quotation marks, was that distributors shouldn’t use the word “cure”, but that’s obscuring the real issue, since the regulations apply to any type of claim that even IMPLIES medicinal properties for prevention, treatment, mitigation or cure; such claims need not specifically use the word “cure”.

    And if a Monavie distributor IS making illegal claims, what then? Does the typical MLM “ignore-it-and-do-absoultely-F-all” approach apply? How about if the kingpins and execs who make such claims or enocurage their distributors to do so? Is Drooly advocating that we (i.e., Federal authorities) should get tougher on these lawbreakers? Jail time and heavy fines perhaps? Asset forfeiture and company closure?

    Let me guess, Drooly’s “stance” is defend, deflect, pontificate, and ignore. Same old BS.

  147. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 6:13 pm

    I think a class action suit could fly. It would be the moral thing to do. Typically, legal firms take such cases on a contigency basis, meaning that it wouldn’t cost the litigants anything upfront; the firm would take a cut of the settlement. In initial consultations, the legal firm will size up the case and then take it on if they think it has a decent chance of succeeding (then they get the nice paycheck). The collective losses of distributors have certainly been massive enough to warrant legal action.

    As for victims, there sure seems to be a lot of them.Thnakfully, you’ve connected and your numbers here are growing. It’s an articulate, and by now very well informed, group that seems to know every nuance about the scam.

    As a starting place for research, I would suggest looking at the legal teams that represented some of the other big class action lawsuits, particularly those that were successful. The Center for Science in the Public Interest (won a huge case against Airborne) might be a good resource to start with. As I recall, USANA had a class action suit filed against them by distributors. Might want to check out who the law firm was that represented those litigants (although I don’t think that case was successful).

    Better still, contact your state attorney general and the AG in Utah (home of Monavie) and whatever state TEAM is registered in. The Department of Justice could also be a powerful ally. State AGs, the FTC, and DOJ have often taken legal action on behalf of consumers against the perpetrators of scams like this, and they have had many big high-profile successes.

    If you enough of you think that you might want to get the class-action ball rolling, I’ll be glad to assist you with more research.

  148. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 6:32 pm

    BTW, you might want to contact the newly formed federal Bureau of Consumer Protection.

    Not to get all political but the GOP has been trying to defund the BCP since its inception…just sayin’ is all.

    It’s an important issue regardless of what side of the political fence one stands on. The CPB was established to protect people like you all. Certain corporate interests don’t want you to have that protection because being forced to play by stricter rules (or being subject to actual enforcement of existing ones) might hurt their bottom line. Dem or Rep, it’s an issue that people need to speak up about. If the representative in your congressional district is one of those who are trying to undermine the CPB, write them a letter and tell them to wisen up.

  149. August 24, 2011 7:47 pm

    @Vogel – Would their be a gag order following a class-action lawsuit? I’d hate for their to be some kind of settlement, wherein both parties have to shut up. Orrin could then go off and continue the same thing, whereas the ex-TEAM members in the lawsuit have to be quiet?

    I’d also like to steer (once again) the conversation back to Orrin = Qrush.

  150. Troy Dooly permalink
    August 24, 2011 7:52 pm


    Since this thread isn’t about me, or the fact you don’t think I am a reliable source (although you do agree with me on the class action suit) I will not waste the communities time.

    By the way, no I am not famous, and if I came across arrogant, for that I am truly sorry.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


    p.s. Have I in some way harmed you in the past? If so please share with this community so I can publicly apologize.

  151. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 8:46 pm

    Good point Amthrax. I guess that could happen if the parties settled rather than seeing the case through to completion. If the trial goes all the way and the defendant is found guilty/liable, then damages could be awarded unconditionally (ie, no gag orders). Some companies have survived despite losing class action suits and paying out large amounts in damages (Airborne). Others just fold (like United Sciences of America, or Dallin Larsen’s old company Dynamic Essentials).

    Sorry for going astray…now back to the Qrush (great work BTW).

    [Editor’s note: grammatical fix]

  152. John permalink
    August 24, 2011 8:48 pm

    Will, you are right. Orrin has people promote him and some of these so called leadership awards are as fake as his apology about negative blogging. What Team does so well at their majors is to have a well orchestrated chorus of praise given the team leaders so that the new person feels they are hearing people that are on par with a rock star. This praise is all artificial. It’s all fake and pumped up hype. This is why people on the team are so deluded. They have bought this super star stuff and they think that to have a few minutes of time with these leaders is like meeting the President of the United States. It’s terribly disgusting.
    By the way,I personally welcome anyone on this blog to share their ideas. Respect is what they all should receive. To be discourteous is to lower ourselves to the level of those that we want to expose. Keep the focus on those who truly need to be exposed as con artists and scammers.

  153. Vogel permalink
    August 24, 2011 8:52 pm

    Drooly said: “p.s. Have I in some way harmed you in the past? If so please share with this community so I can publicly apologize.”

    Just correcting your latest BS Drooly. Save the apologies; just stop the BS.

  154. August 24, 2011 9:25 pm

    I entered the dates incorrectly in my section quoting Orrin Woodward about mudslinging. Orrin said that he realized mudslinging anonymously on the Internet was bad in late-2005, but he posted about the perils of such actions back in late-2004.

  155. August 25, 2011 3:46 am


    You did not correct anything I said. From the sarcasm you spewed, and the way you spelled my name, it’s not correction of anything. You just showed unprofessionalism, towards someone you do not know. I am a guest in this community and have acted as such. But if this is how you treat guests, it is no wonder this situation has continued for years.

    From the respect I have seen given to you from others inside this community, for you to act in such a way, is truly perplexing.

    Either this community wants to get the truth out, or it doesn’t. But to treat people who come in ask questions and responds to questions, in such an unprofessional manner causes me to ask…

    What is the difference between how you personally responded to me, and how Orrin and his crew responds to you and others?

    Living An Epic Adventure,


    p.s. Amthrax, respect the fact you want this back on topic, however this is a very important issue. Twice this has taken place by people this community seems to respect.

  156. humiliated permalink
    August 25, 2011 7:57 am

    I assume that you are talking about me Mr. Dooly. I am really trying hard to ignore you, respect Amthrax’s wishes and face the task at hand, but you make it extremely difficult.

    The difference is that Vogel doesn’t have a vested interest in perpetuating this MLM “business” that you are a part of. I applaud Vogel for this but I guess you expected me to say that.. You can not vilify TEAM without making the same accusations about other MLMS, they all operate the same way to varying degrees. If these people hadn’t spoken out about TEAM and MonaVie, you would not be here. You are not the one investigating them, my community here is. More than likely, the attorneys that Vogel is suggesting are anti MLM and would be far more effective then any other attorneys out there, but that is just my opinion.

    You say everything quite politely and respectfully but that doesn’t mean that you are, by any stretch of the imagination, right. It doesn’t mean that this MLM business that you are flogging is a noble or lucrative business for people and that is where we part company. I do not wish to debate this topic any further. For me, it is at it’s fundamental and basic level a moral and ethical debate. You think that MLM is great, I think it is a sub-set of white collar crime. Do you REALLY think YOU are going to change my mind? Do you really think that I haven’t done my research? You ask for respect from us, please respect my opinion on the matter.

    One last thing, it is interesting that ‘webelieved’ comments on the invasion of TEAM into one’s personal life and beliefs. How are you ANY different from these great leaders with your “Morning Coffee” sermons? You are NOT a pastor and you are NOT a relationship expert. This is HIGHLY unprofessional and inappropriate if you ask me.

    Link to Troy’s video, which doesn’t need to be embedded in this comment.

    [Editor’s note: moved video from embed to a link]

  157. August 25, 2011 9:31 am


    I did not come here to debate or talk about the direct selling business model, or the companies who use a network marketing or MLM compensation structure.

    If you remember, I stated I TEAM member (not executive) asked me to defend Orrin as not being Qrush. Since I had not idea what they were talking about, I came and read through the post, made a comment about anonymous posters, etc.

    My goal is never to change anyone’s mind. First of all because I do not think you, me or anyone can change anyone’s mind. I do believe through constructive debate, and the process of critical thinking, we can sometimes see a different side of an equation. At least this is true in my case.

    I am biased for direct selling, and that has never been debated. I am also vocal when companies and/or distributors cross the line ethically or legally, when it is brought to my attention and documented.

    Humiliated, it is only through dialog with those who may not see eye-to-eye with us, that we as individuals can grow.

    My frustrations, no matter what site it is, is when the very individuals who have been the victims of painful situations, tend to lash out when people do seem to care.

    I don’t except trust to be given without me earning it, or anyone for that matter. But when a person is treated with blatant disrespect by members of a community which states is looking for justice in a situation, that just seems very contradictory and in someways the very way this community states they are treated by the other side.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  158. Vogel permalink
    August 25, 2011 9:33 am

    Drooly whined: “What is the difference between how you personally responded to me, and how Orrin and his crew responds to you and others?”

    What a dishonest cry baby! What are the differences you ask? (1) Woodward (and you) tell sweet-tasting candy-coated lies; I speak the truth, bluntly. (2) I’m not hustling a scam or taking money from anyone. (3) I actually give a shit about the people here. Those are but a few of the differences. But your question is foolish. Woodward has a legacy of deception and victimizing people financially and emotionally. I was merely caustic toward you while I was correcting your BS. Only a true jackass would try to equate the two. Meanwhile, since you’ve been posting here, have you made even a single relevant comment about the Orrin/Qrush connection? No! You’re turning this into Drooly’s soapbox. Would it kill you to be relevant for a millisecond or are you just going to continue sermonizing about the evils of anonymous blogging?

    BTW, I don’t care how polite you pretend to be here Drooly (I’m immune to love bombing BTW — it’s one of my superpowers); your real agenda is apparent from your trail of laughable homemade MLM propaganda videos, and they reveal you as an MLM apologist and a clown. You talk so much crap and virtually never say anything of substance. Why you came here to spew your propaganda BS about Monavie’s research is beyond me. That just won’t fly. But now, don’t try to derail the conversation or steal the spotlight. This ain’t about you.

  159. August 25, 2011 9:44 am


    You linked a video which is linked to a series off my personal site, and made some comments which are a way outside of this thread.

    I respect Amthrax’s wishes to keep this on track, so I will not dive deep into this.

    I am a minister and a relationship expert, although I am not licensed in either. But as you and I both know it is not a license that makes one an expert, it is the life experiences we live.

    If a license was needed to be an expert then none of this community could call themselves experts on TEAM. It is the life experiences they have lived which causes at least me to realize they are experts.

    Isn’t it great that we both live in Countries where we can decide who and what we watch.

    Like I mentioned to Vogel, if I have in any way harmed or offended you privately or publicly, then please just explain. I have not problem saying I am sorry, when I have cross the line.

    Living An Epic Adventure,

  160. August 25, 2011 10:02 am

    Everyone – Stepping in here now. Let’s stop on the attacks on Troy. Whether or not you agree with him or not, Troy has a voice on the Internet with regards to MLMs and the Direct Selling Industry. I will take him at his word that he’s investigating the issue of deception by Orrin Woodward and TEAM.

    If you want to argue about Troy, you can do so elsewhere on the Internet or via direct correspondance with Troy. I’ll be moderating comments in the future if they stray from the conversation at hand: Whether or not Orrin = Qrush.

    No one needs to respond to this comment. Just be civil and stay on target.

  161. August 25, 2011 10:05 am

    @Troy – You wrote:

    If you remember, I stated I TEAM member (not executive) asked me to defend Orrin as not being Qrush. Since I had not idea what they were talking about, I came and read through the post, made a comment about anonymous posters, etc.

    Actually, I don’t recall you ever saying that a TEAM member can to you to defend Orrin against these accusations. You originally wrote:

    My original objective was to review this post, which was brought to my attention. Then after reading it, I did feel compelled to write my original comment, and leave it at that.

    • I would like you to elaborate on your conversation with this TEAM member.
    • How have your thoughts and opinions changed since then?
    • What other information can I or other people provide to assist you in your investigation?
  162. August 25, 2011 10:17 am

    [Editor’s note: Follow-up with Troy directly regarding these video links. DO NOT RESPOND in comments unless you are talking about the TEAM contracts. If you me to send them to Troy, send them to me, and I will forward to Troy.]


    Here are some links to a few editorials. – Red flags on Skinny body care. – Income Claims – Red flags on AutoXTen – FDA Could Hit CEO Founders – That Free Thing – Back room money deals – Red flags on LiveSmart 360

    This will give you a small sampling.

    By the way, I still have not received any copies of the contracts top TEAM leaders were made to sign to review. If you or anyone else can black out your names and send those, it would be helpful.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  163. August 25, 2011 10:36 am


    1. Here is the message I received from the TEAM member.

    “Hi Troy, You seem to be the source in the mlm space for noteworthy news and announcements with networking.

    Have you ever heard of the Qrush blog before. One of are big anti-team critics called amthrax says that orrin Woodward is Qrush. Can you write a post stating that this would not be true? Orrin is the #7 leadership guru in the world and would not do something like this.”

    My Response:

    “I will look into this. As for a leadership guru… 🙂 I’m not sure I have ever heard Orrin called guru… kind of funny.”

    His Response: (video not attached)

    “Hi Troy, at 5:20 (roughly) into this video Orrin actually refers to himself as a GURU!

    🙂 I think it is comical now a bit now that you pointed that out and how funny you thought it was. He is definately a big leader, but maybe I wouldnt self promote myself as one because that does come off as kind of arrogant, boastful and prideful. But, nonetheless, they have a business that is moving on!”

    Then I came over and started reviewing and commenting.

    2. As I mentioned above, I thought I was going to see a bunch of dull, negative, crybabies who were frustrated about Orrin. What I found is what truly seems to be emotionally and financially hurt people who had have in at least some cases had legally binding agreements broken, promises broken, and above all else their trust broken.

    Which is why I mentioned a class action lawsuit might be justified in this case.

    3. What I would like, is copies of the agreements which were signed for review. I do not need the agreements with names, folks can black those out.

    But, right now I have no documentation. I fully believe there are agreements, and I understand some people do not have copies. But surely someone outside of TEAM can provide something.

    4. My opinion of systems run by top distributors with or without compensation tied to them has not changed. It is a conflict of interest, and the FTC has hit more than just Amway for allowing this situation.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  164. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 25, 2011 12:54 pm

    Folks, I don’t know Troy other than following his stuff online. However, after some conversations with some folks formerly affiliated with TEAM in one aspect or another (some high, some not so high placed) they feel he is going at this with an open mind. I won’t/can’t mention any names, but trust me when I say they are the same people we have all named when pointing out the fact that their departure from Team means something smells fishy in TEAMville.

    I think that Troy’s presence hear could become very helpful. JMHO…

  165. August 25, 2011 1:54 pm

    @webelieved – Scott Larsen and Orrin Woodward/TEAM settled out of court. Scott removed all mentions of TEAM/TOD from his site, and I bet that he had to agree that he couldn’t criticize them anymore. He also asked mirror sites to take down the information, which some did and some didn’t.

    Some Ex-TEAM members say that they’ll show the definitive proof if Orrin ever publicly says that he wasn’t Qrush. This is probably why Orrin hemmed and hawed about it on his own site.

  166. August 25, 2011 2:42 pm

    Read this post on how to earn income from TEAM as a TEAM Director. Pay close attention to the quoted email about not leading with TEAM as the business opportunity but with MonaVie.

    However, I want to remind you that Team’s Director Compensation Plan shouldn’t be presented to prospects or new distributors as an enticement or as one of the benefits of becoming a MonaVie Distributor being educated, led and fueled by Team. This is specifically referenced in the Director Requirements section of your Director Agreement (section 5.20). I have included the actual text below.

    * Director understands that as a Director he, she, or it can be paid for his, her, or its service to Team. However, Team is not a business opportunity for any of our Members and a Director will never promote it as such nor will he, she or it allow others to do so.

    The Policy Council recommends that you quote/explain earnings of 2 to 3 thousand a month in your plan and that as your business grows your income grows etc. If you have specific questions regarding how to explain/present please contact your Round Table or Policy Council Member.

    LIFE appears to be inverting this statement, such that the tools business will become the primary business, with MonaVie becoming just a supplier of Fitness products.

  167. August 26, 2011 8:43 am

    Troy, any update on your findings on the guru ranking sites and who is behind it?

    Maybe you could ask Orrin directly if he paid a firm to create this marketing gimmick for him?

  168. Candace permalink
    August 26, 2011 8:58 am

    Something about this is niggling at the back of my memory…Have you researched at all QRush’s connection/involvement with Bruce Anderson? For some reason, I seem to recall QRush being mentioned in the mounds of Bruce Anderson’s legal documents I have read in years past. Those documents may or may not still be available for public view.

  169. August 26, 2011 9:10 am


    Back to this post, what do you think about Orrin=Qrush?

    Also, since you are asking a number of questions about contracts and seem to be researching the team model, you should start by investigating the team life profit sharing model.

    The reason that there are so many people on this blog is because they have been hurt by Orrin’s broken promises, lies and illegal profit sharing model.

    I think you would agree that his tool business is one giant scam. Better yet, his scam is working like a charm as he ENCOURAGES IBOs to SELL tools from DAY 1, yet they do not earn any profit. He has built a massive field of IBOs who sell his tools for FREE, with the hope of one day becoming a profit sharer.

    he hurt feelings and frustrations you are witnessing on this blog is due to years of broken promises by Orrin and co. His model is designed to hurt people from the very beginning.

  170. August 26, 2011 9:35 am

    @Candace – Long time no comment, Candace! No, I’m not that familiar with the Bruce Anderson case. Can you bring us up to speed on this? From what I could gather on Larsen’s website, he was a high-ranking distributor that had a problem with the video tool sales?

  171. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2011 9:42 am

    Here’s a link to a site that has a lot of info on the Bruce Anderson case:

    On another note I am closely following this thread to see where Troy goes with it. I have some thoughts I would like to share but I think I will wait a bit.

    I will say this, I totally understand how all of you feel. I don’t know Orrin personally or have I had any interaction with Team but all this “stuff” sounds familiar.

  172. Candace permalink
    August 26, 2011 10:48 am

    Thank you, Mike for posting that link.
    Amthrax, yes, it’s been a while, life has been busy in a good way. 🙂
    So much info that I had read online at great length has disappeared over the years, imagine that. Bruce’s website was *quite* informative and entertaining, but he only had it up for a brief period. It contained recordings of phone conversations, videos of conversations, links to legal documents, etc. I am pretty sure I recall QRush being mentioned. But these Amway/MonaVie kingpins are so tangled up in each other’s business, that it’s hard to keep them all straight anymore.

  173. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 26, 2011 11:25 am

    Mike Collins~

    Welcome and Thanks. I just read that article today; before you put up the link..wierd. It will be interesting to hear what you have to say. Thanks for commenting, and we are all interested in seeing where Troy finds and where he goes with it. 🙂

  174. John permalink
    August 26, 2011 3:43 pm

    Comments made by the infamous Qrush:

    “Qrush will continue to expose Bo Short and Scott Larsen in my future post. I have given both of the immoral bozo’s ample time to repent from their deviant blogging deeds. No repentance or explanation from Scott or Bo just leads Qrush to reveal more. “

    No repentance from Orrin by his own words only causes all of us to reveal more!!!!

    “ Qrush believes you reap what you sow in life and Bo and Scott are reaping the whirlwind.”

    Guess that is what is happening to OW.

    “The above comments and statements are based on my opinions and the strange behavior of two “has never” people. The secret lives of these two miscreants will be advertised to the whole world. Qrush believes being “MLM Bad Boys” never pays.”

    OW can have opinion but no one else can? What hypocrisy!!!

    “What does Scott Larsen (the poster child for the 40 year old virgin) know about relationships to get off talking about someone else’s divorce? What does Bo Short (the poster child for the Peter Pan Man) know about business to comment on WWDB’s business success? Scott is a 40+ year old non-married moron and Bo Short is a 40+ year old business “has been” or actually “has never.”

    What kind remarks from a wonderful Christian man. He is just the kind of leader we all need.

    “Wherever there is untruth, injustice, & parasite marketing look for Quixtar Qrush to clean it up.”

    Our hero!! OW will clean up all the parasite marketing. He is the biggest parasite marketer that ever lead a pyramid scam.

    “Can Bo Short still have character and leadership after so many questionable activities? Is anyone in Passport truly making money after expenses?”

    Ouch!! Don’t want anyone asking OW and Team that question!

    “ I have been reading a whole bunch of garbage today on a con named Scott Larsen. I was planning on researching Commie Lib Eric Janssen today, but his site is down. Oh well, any dirty Lib will do.”

    Great stuff from Orrin

    “Scott has spent enough time to master practically any hobbie or skill yet he has chosen to use it to ruin his attitude and life. What kind of sane person would do this. Pinko Bastards typically shy away from any hard committments, yet Scott marches on. Scott if your out there please email me so we can discuss the motivations of a Commie Lib like yourself.”

    More trash talk from our man of character and ethics.

    Scott is angry that other men have developed relationships with women and have gone on to be responsible members of society with children and more respectable hobbies. “Scott attacks people who are divorced because he is upset that he could not convince anyone to date him let alone marry him. No wonder Scott advises people to not try the Quixtar business, because Scott Larsen has not successfully tried anything in life.”

    The kindness of Orrin Woodward is amazing. Does he wonder why so few people love or respect him once they get to know him?

    Orrin Woodward is Qrush.

    [Editor’s note: added blockquotes for better readability]

  175. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 26, 2011 7:34 pm


    Orrin=Qrush to Orrin at the Pulpit~ Unbelievable! How extremely disturbing.

  176. Dorothy permalink
    August 26, 2011 10:00 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  177. humiliated permalink
    August 27, 2011 6:04 am

    Well, well, well Orrin. Two things…irony is thy middle name. In your little message you state that the children of the world are not being taught the difference between right and wrong…it is because of people like you that people are blurring the lines. I can’t seem to say this enough but you disgust me.

    Also, this dirty commie Lib does INDEED follow through with commitment and that committment is assisting these people in bringing your lying, deceitful, greedy, psychopathic ass down. Oh, and I am a woman so I should have probably prefaced that description with ‘female” dirty commie Lib because I know how much respect you have for women as well.

  178. August 27, 2011 6:40 am


    Sorry I have not responded to he last few questions. My main site was hit with a small cyber attack on the 24th, and my focus has been to tighten securities and track the situation down.

    Google is now pleased with the site, and we have removed all malicious code, and added several new security measures.

    If you by some chance did visit from the links I provided, please just run a quick scan on your computer for any malware which might have been downloaded.

    I regret this happened. Not sure if I stepped on some toes lately, or this is just a freak timing situation.

    I will respond to the latest questions before the weekend is over.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  179. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 27, 2011 7:12 am

    To everyone on this thread, I just want to introduce myself. My name is Brent Hansen and I was with Legacy/Team for a combined time of over 12 years, AND HAVE SEEN IT ALL. I would enjoy connecting with anyone who is willing to reach out. I do not prefer to use a pseudonym or a different name here because I prefer for people to know EXACTLY WHO I AM, AND EXACTLY WHAT I KNOW. Please feel free to reach me by email @, or Thanks!

  180. August 27, 2011 9:02 am

    @Brent – How would you like to contribute to this discussion? In an earlier comment, you wrote:

    @Finally, is this paragraph I quote from you 100%, undeniably true? Do you have evidence to back up this statement? If not, you are going way out on a limb making a statement like this. I am neither pro or con Team, merely trying to gather evidence that will lead to a conclusion.

    If you were in Legacy/TEAM for 12 years, you should by now be able to take a side on the business, no?

  181. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 27, 2011 11:40 am


    Thanks for that update, when I went there my computer gave me a warning to not go. I think this is very interesting since Juicescams’ webites had the same thing happen. I persoanlly don’t think that this is a coincedence.

  182. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 27, 2011 3:44 pm

    Amthrax, although I have a personal opinion about this thread, I am hesitant to share it due to a lack of hard evidence. All of us know how unscrupulous the different Amway/Quixtar systems were, and still are, my previous post was merely an attempt to dig for information regarding a payment or bailout of the Team Founders by Monavie Corporate. Whether or not Orrin is Qrush is a mystery that none of us may never know or be able to figure out for certain, but in my thinking, if there was money that exchanged hands when Team came into Monavie, that would be a bigger point of concern or attack for everyone. The simple act of receiving money in exchange for people would mean that the Team Leadership sold their souls for the almighty dollar. To me, that would be an inexcusable display of greed, selfishness, and corruption. I remember hearing Team PC members over and over again talking of how Team would be doing their own thing, and becoming the “Walmart” of the internet. Then, when the stuff really hit the fan, and the time came to see what they were really made of, I wonder if thy tucked tail, and sold out to the highest bidder, surely Monavie couldn’t have been the best option for their people?

    I have been involved in recent discussions with a member of the Team Policy Council regarding this exact topic. One of their leaders has been trying to excite me about LIFE, and my simple question to him is this, “Why is Orrin and Team affiliated with Monavie?” I believe that if the Team leadership were the people that they say they are, and their goal is to “lead people to truth” then why would they lead and entire organization into a business model where less than 5% of the entire distributor force could ever even earn enough to pay for their autoship? The simple mathematics of MLM compensation, always require that the vast majority of a persons in an entire organization must lose money every month so that the guys at the top can rake it in. In my thinking, the answer to this one simple question alone, is enough to discredit their entire purpose. So I repeat my question to the blogger who posted that there was a payoff to Team from Monavie, do you have evidence to back up this statement?

    Trust me Amthrax, I have moved far beyond a dislike for Team, Legacy, or any other MLM leadership group, I began this way, when I left in 2007, but now I am livid with the entire industry. I have engaged with Troy Dooly on several occasions, and although I feel that Troy gives everyone a fair shot, and speaks the truth according to his knowledge, our points of view are on opposite sides of the spectrum. I have also engaged with MLM Critic Michael Collins, and I am keenly aware of his stand on the issues, and I tend to side with him in all of his arguments because I know exactly what he has experienced in the industry and what he is trying to accomplish.

    To answer your question Amthrax of “how would you like to contribute to this discussion”, I guess I would have to respond with a question to all of you on this thread and that would be this, what is the end game here? What is it you are all really trying to accomplish? Because my disdain for this situation runs much deeper than simply trying to prove whether or not Orrin is Qrush. I wonder if anyone here is willing to take action towards some sort of resolution, or whether this is only a bunch of anonymous bloggers blowing off steam. According to what I can see here, myself, Troy Dooly, and Michael Collins are the only ones who are being totally transparent with our identities, email addresses etc. etc…. Its one thing to hide behind a computer and blow off steam through a proxy server or a pseudonym, but quite another to put your name on the dotted line. So before I can answer you Amthrax, my question would be directed towards everyone on this thread. What exactly is it you are all hoping to accomplish here? Is this about action, or lip service?

  183. August 27, 2011 5:21 pm

    @brent – Orrin = Qrush is just one of many posts on this site that talks about the questionable practices by TEAM. You may be interested in reading this comment from my post TEAM: What Really Happened in the Six Months Between Amway/Quixtar and MonaVie?. @webelieved stated:

    copied from Would you have Stayed-
    webelieved permalink
    June 4, 2011 8:51 pm
    Hey Steve- What do you know about this???? I heard Orrin was going to meet with Aisle 19 to take us all there and then Dallin offered to pay him a lot of money to go to mv. Is this true? At the time, I checked out Aisle 19, it was a lot like Amway, some main core products and lots of big partner stores. I KNOW FOR SURE, WHEN I LOOKED IT UP ONLINE , LOW AND BEHOLD, THEY (AISLE 19) WERE SELLING TEAM TRAINING MATERIALS TO THEIR DISTRIBUTORS!!!!!! I COULDN’T BELIEVE MY EYES AS THE LEADERS HAD NO IDEA ANOTHER COMPETING MLM WERE USING TEAM MATERIALS!!! I BELIEVE AT THIS TIME WE WERE ALREADY IN MV FOR QUITE AWHILE.
    I wonder now if this was the company that Orrin was going to take us to?????? I remember in the 6 month wait a website came up on the Team site, or linked to it, that had a lot of Partner Stores. In fact I know people said they looked at it for awhile, and then quickly, the same day, it was taken down and hush hush. I think it was an accident and I think it would’ve gotten Team in a lot of trouble with Amway? Anyone know more about this ???

    Now, do I take webelieved’s statement as the truth? Not without more evidence, but as I’ve said a few times on this blog, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. For more posts on TEAM and Orrin, follow these links:

    As for the end game? I originally wrote this blog to talk about my experience in Amway/Quixtar. Over time, I learned about TEAM and Orrin Woodward; the more I investigated, the more I realized that the same abuses I experienced over a decade ago were happening with TEAM and MonaVie. For me, this blog acts as a forum for those who have left TEAM under bad circumstances to talk about their experiences. For those looking at the Amway/MonaVie/LIFE opportunity, this blog serves as a different perspective on the opportunity. Finally, for the kingpin leaders, this blog serves as a signpost that people won’t be silent as they perpetrate a scam on tens of thousands of people.

    At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who Amthrax is. Amthrax is all of us. It’s you, it’s me, it’s the person who’s realizing that the 2-5-year plan is a mirage. It’s the person who was hardcore TEAM one day, and hardcore TEAM critic years later.

  184. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 27, 2011 6:35 pm

    Thank you for the response Amthrax. I had to chuckle as I linked to your previous blog posts regarding the departure of Legacy from the Team training system. Your particular post on May 16,2011 at 8:48 am, as well as the posts of @webelieved somehow gave credit or credence to Haugen and company as they left Team. As if leaving Team was somehow a sign of their integrity, character or their noble cause. Legacy left Team due to their own greediness and lack of qualification to meet the standards for profit sharing within the Team tools compensation program.

    The guys at Legacy are experts at deception, they have been doing this for so much longer than Orrin, that they actually make Orrin and Team look like amateurs. The Legacy bunch were operating their scam while Orrin was still in diapers. See Amthrax, the “tool king pin” problem runs way deeper than just Orrin Woodward and the Team, the entire MLM industry is plagued with the exact same deception. I believe that from the DSA
    (lobbyists for the industry) all the way through the ownership of individual companies, and into the ranks of many of the so called “industry leaders” there lies a grievous situation of corruption and vile that can only be paralleled by the mob.

    Because, most companies are merely internal consumption pyramids, the mathematics of compensation plans will only allow a certain percentage of distributors to ever earn a dollar. Every leader within the industry learns how to position themselves to take advantage of the compensation mathematics, and every other vulnerable soul will always be paying into the wealth redistribution system referred to as a MLM opportunity. If it weren’t for the DSA and the money being pumped through that organization into Washington D.C., a high percentage of so called “opportunities” would have been already legally declared Ponzi schemes.

    So with the language of your response I have been giving the notion that your blog is merely a place for people to let off steam or to find some emotional reprieve to those who have not fully understand (just like myself) exactly what they were getting into when choosing to engage with Team. I applaud your efforts, and hopefully your blog may prevent other would be victims from joining any of these organizations. If that is your “end game” then good luck, and keep doing what your doing. I guess I was wrong in assuming that the invitation extended to Troy Dooly was an attempt to “ratchet up” the cause. If your only purpose is to prove that Orrin = Qrush, then if ever that is proven, what could be the possible next step? Troy had previously suggested a class action lawsuit, is this something this community would entertain, or is this simply about remaining anonymous, and continuing to spread the word? Thanks.

  185. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 27, 2011 6:37 pm

    P.S. Until someone on this thread has the courage to connect with me through email, or by phone, I have nothing further to add to this thread. I do not appreciate those who are faceless names.

  186. No Team For Me permalink
    August 27, 2011 7:09 pm

    I don’t know what level you were at or how much direct contact you had with Orrin and the PC members. But I beleive I am safe when I say Webelieved, Speak and myself were probably quite a bit more intimate with them than you were. And it was your own post earlier tonight in which you compared them to the mob.

    Not accussing them of physically hurting people, but I do believe they would attempt to file bogus lawsuits and do everything they could to silence any critic. You have no idea what these people are capable of. Thus the reason for the annonymity.

    However, if anyone did file a class action lawsuit, I’m sure several of us have some pretty interesting information to add to the case included information on any financial benefits received by team leaders for coming to mv, having groups stolen from us, a profit-sharing plan in which we were expected to sign a contract without approval from an attorney and one in which we were never allowed to know how bonuses were calculated, etc.

  187. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 28, 2011 1:30 am

    With all due respect, there is something I hope people understand and I believe millions do, including those on here, because they have experienced it. We are not a unique collection of individuals/ small ‘community’ that a company or companies/ (Orrin & Company) from the MLM Industry, that have all of a sudden been targeted and abused by the corruption that permeates the industry; not by a long shot.

    There are numerous cases, lawsuits, books of personal accounts; websites etc. of people sharing the abuses and corruptions they endured and continue to endure; Amthrax site included. These abuses have been occurring in the industry for many decades. These victims/survivors continue to be victimized by the same perpetuating abuses over and over, by being harassed, threatened, belittle, name calling, character attacks, lawsuits to SILENCE, and sometimes worse, abused by those with the money, etc.

    History proves that there have been or attempted to be cover-ups, whitewashed, people have seemingly been bought off, people threatened, people sued to ruin them financially, court records sealed to keep people silenced and the public from being informed, people continuously harassed, slandered, lied about, churches, families, marriages, friendships and finances, destroyed, ruined and taxed.

    People have been and are sick and tired for decades now, of it being swept under the rug and then those perpetuating the abuses continue on WITHOUT recourse, or as I stated above, just to find a whole new set of victims to perpetuate the diabolic scam that we know the 99% line the pockets of the TOP.

    So to Brent Hasen, some of us, if not all of us feel the same distain and know it runs way deeper; we too lived it. We aren’t ignorant to the diabolic corruption all the way to the TOP, particularly to Orrin/PC/TEAM, but also all the way to Washington DC, and are not ignorant to the fact that Troy is on the opposite side and will NOT solve the REAL problem. If Troy, is willing to spend his time and find some hard evidence, then that can only help, right? That has yet to be revealed, either way. We aren’t naïve.

    I also agree when you say: “All of us know how unscrupulous the different Amway/Quixtar systems were, and still are” and “the entire MLM industry is plagued with the exact same deception. “I believe that from the DSA (lobbyists for the industry) all the way through the ownership of individual companies, and into the ranks of many of the so called “industry leaders” there lies a grievous situation of corruption and vile that can only be paralleled by the mob.” “If it weren’t for the DSA and the money being pumped through that organization into Washington D.C., a high percentage of so called “opportunities” would have been already legally declared Ponzi schemes.”

    There is diabolic corruption that runs all the way to Washington D.C.; with that said you are asking;
    “ I wonder if anyone here is willing to take action towards some sort of resolution, or whether this is only a bunch of anonymous bloggers blowing off steam;” if we are just paying ‘lip service’ or want to take ‘action’ and wonder why we are anonymous?

    I will say this, we don’t have the answers and we too want it stopped just as you do, but not just another lawsuit, that obviously does not solve the root problem, that is my personal opinion based on the history. I also believe you know they are the best at covering their tracks and if not they find a way to.

    I originally came on here because I had; had enough,(as thousands if not hundreds of thousands before me have; here and many other venues) and felt the truth needed to be told to at least help someone else from being sucked in and their lives be damaged, the way ours had. We had been screwed over royally, by Orrin and the PC, we were in shock and raged at first and then needed to do my own healing to sort things out. And believe it or not Amthrax site has made a difference; you could find that in the post. And as it turned out; it has helped me begin to heal from almost a decade and half of this corruption.

    So if you feel we are just on here to blow off steam and want to just pay ‘lip service’, you are entitled to that opinion, but will tell you, that is not true. There is plenty of discussion you wouldn’t know about. It helps to release the frustration and oppression, I will agree; but that is not the core reason. We just don’t have the perfect storm, yet. As for now there isn’t any easy solution and WE ALL KNOW it runs way deeper, we even know and some of us believe, it is a cult, but haven’t heard of a real solution yet; that solves the ROOT problem. We don’t want to be another lawsuit statistic, either.

    Let me also say that there is NO ONE yet after decades, which have been able to go up against this diabolic corruption and stop it or even slow it down but there are plenty of people working on it.

    History proves that the personal lawsuits and class actions suits, people being put through gruesome, continuous litigation for years and years of their life after, years and years of it already robbing them and their families, to end up possibly getting a few bucks for the masses, a lot for the attorneys and then to be silenced? What did that really solve? Some lawyers (possibly corrupt themselves) made some big bucks? Won or lost, they have NOT stopped the corruption, have they? I have personally spoken to someone who spent 9 years of their life and it nearly destroyed them! Lawsuits aren’t solving the problem, history proves that and Those who don’t learn from it; are doomed to repeat it.
    So, my question to you is: What Action Are You Taking that won’t repeat history and will stop this corruption or do you have some other way you know how to stop this corruption? If you do, please share it! There would probably be someone take you up on contacting you.

    Another question, Why, if you have so much distain for the industry would you still be talking with a Team PC or even listening to them? You stated you spoke to a Team PC and someone is trying to get you excited about the LIEF program; what were the answers they gave you to your questions?

    Thanks for sharing, we do appreciate it, and it shows by your comments you have been in a long time and understand the corruption. Let us know what your idea of a resolution is, we sincerely want to know.

  188. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 28, 2011 6:54 am

    @ Brent

    Correction: What were the discussions, questions & answers that you had with the Team PC?

    I should clarify, a lawsuit has been entertained and if it turns out that it would do more than I mentioned above, or would serve more than just money out of the pockets of Orrin and the PC for them to walk away and continue then it would be a strong option for I am sure many of us. I don’t want to give the wrong impression, but I also wanted to show we know what history proves. Do you know of a lawsuit that has proven to stop anyone?

    One last thing you appear to be challeging others to contact you, is it because you are serious and are do something, or is there another reason?

  189. August 28, 2011 2:34 pm


    Based on some common contract laws, and what I have reason to believe may have been included in some or all of the TEAM agreements, can you answer the following for me.

    1. Were you at any time notified by TEAM that your agreement was accepted, or was it assumed it was accepted because you started to receive profit sharing, or other compensation under the agreement?

    2. At anytime while the agreement was in force did you sell or were you accused of selling any other “business support materials” outside of what Amway or MonaVie might have made available? Something you created, ZiG Ziggler, John Maxwell, Video Plus, Networking Times, etc.

    3. Were you given 30 days written notice of the termination of your TEAM Agreements?

    4. Before taking your dispute public here and elsewhere, did you meet one-on-one with Orrin Woodward, or other TEAM corporate representative to come to a resolution? If a resolution could not be found, did you then go before a conciliator for final resolution?

    5. If the above took place, and a resolution was not agreed upon, did you notify TEAM corporate by certified letter within 7 days of the meeting?

    6. And during the term of your agreement, were you or anyone in your household part of any other network marketing opportunity or tool company?

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  190. Mike Collins permalink
    August 28, 2011 9:38 pm

    And so it begins………….

  191. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 29, 2011 6:35 am

    Troy, This was the question webelieved asked you in a previous post; and your answer.

    Webelieved asked;

    2. “Do you think it is ethical to herd people in a room to sign multi page contracts for Team profit sharing and not allow a copy or time to read them, or the ability to take them to an attorney, when they are informed the company will not pay you any longer if you don’t sign them? Then later when asked in writing, after they stole your earned profit sharing, the company refuses to send a copy of the contracts you signed?

    Troy answer:

    2. Short answer NO, it is not ethical, or legal! If this situation took place, then based on current contract law, it might be able to be presented in a civil case, that the contracts were signed under extreme circumstances and are not binding. If two parties sign any form of agreement, each party MUST be provided with originals, or valid copies of the originals with signatures and/or initials on each page.

    Troy you stated this is illegal based on current contract law and then also stated; ” each party MUST be provided with originals, or valid copies of the originals with signatures and /or intials on each page.”

    We DID NOT receive the copies EVER, so how are your questions even revelant? Therefore, why would you ask?

  192. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 29, 2011 8:10 am


    Wouldn’t it make more sense to ask Orrin; Why he would be operating unethically and illegally as you have stated, under current contract law?

  193. August 29, 2011 8:35 am

    A minor issue compared with the many experiences given here, but you can add Woodward outright lying and claiming, supposedly based on “inside knowledge” that I was being paid by Amway/Quixtar/IBOAI.

  194. August 29, 2011 10:26 am

    @Speak Your Truth,

    Great question, and one that is easy to answer. This week my goal is to have a live conversation with Orrin Wooward and ask some specific questions regarding the whole team model, based on what I have read here and elsewhere.

    My getting responses from this community in advance of my call with him, I may be given additional questions I can ask, or at the very least may know before the call, some of the direction it will take.

    I have reviewed the Amway and MonaVie P&Ps and have been able to review some of the other tool companies agreement with their top people. I will assume that TEAM’s past and current agreements are going to be close to the agreements I have read.

    If this is true, then I can also assume,the reason/excuse which may be given for the terminations of profit sharing etc., will stem around some form of breach of P&Ps of the primary company.

    I state this, because it seems from your very statement of the fact no one was ever given a copy of the original agreements, and they were signed under what seems could be seen in a court of law as duress, if no one was given time to review the agreement or get outside legal counsel to review aforesaid agreements.

    Yes, I can and will talk to Orrin and ask some questions. However, in trying to work through the big picture using some form of critical thinking, I must have as many facts as I can get to ask the most direct and meaningful questions to Orrin, and any other TEAM representative.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  195. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 29, 2011 2:28 pm


    I understand more than you know why you would want to be prepared before talking with Orrin; but that doesn’t change the facts; they still remain the same.

    The facts are; in conjunction with what webelieved stated; we were ‘partnered with Quixtar” at the time, it was at a Go-Diamond weekend with (1000 people according to the PC) but whether it was 100 or 1000 is irrevelant too) there are plenty of witness. We were NEVER given the original or a valid copy of the contract, allowed to read it, or take to an attorney, as stated numersous times.

    Another important fact; the TEAM has always been a seperate business from whatever MLM they have attached themselves to and in this case, Quixtar/Amway. We have always gotten paid seperately and received seperate1099’s for taxes.

    Since you, I,or anyone else, that I am aware of, don’t have the original or a valid copy of the contract then the questions you ask are still only hypothetical ones; are irrevelant and distracting from the real question.

    There is only one real question at this time that would determine whether as you stated; could find this as based on illegal and unethical common practice of the law, therefore not binding as you state. How could anyone breach a contract they never read or received?

    To loose sight of that, makes everything else irrevelant.

    I am sure you have plenty of questions to ask Orrin. There are also point blank questions you could gather from Will’s comments on Orrin and the topic of Qrush or get from the post on here of Questions asked to Orrin and Chris.

    I am sure many of us are looking forward to the answers to the questions you will be asking Orrin. Good luck.

    [Editor’s note: Grammatical corrections]

  196. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 29, 2011 9:33 pm

    Troy~ Another correction.

    I meant to say; I hope you don’t lose sight of the main question, everything else is irrelevant.

    Another important fact: Because we never received the contract and knew of nothing in it, the only real contract we had was a verbal one.

    This was touted everyway (cd’s, from stage, etc) and so much, there would be probably tens of thousands of witness to this:

    The verbal PROMISE is; A passive, residual, willable, ongoing, b-type business for the rest of your life, if you bring the numbers to their system.

    As far as us and others would be concerned; that is the only contract we had.

  197. August 29, 2011 9:59 pm

    Simple question for Orrin [redacted] that he doesn’t seem to ever want to address….

    He’s been doing this now for what, 20 years? Building Communities and creating leaders. After that span in time, how many people have become financially free?

    That is what it’s all about from the start, is it not?

    How many people has Orrin made free? Now compare that to the number of people who have been on TEAM, Team of Destiny, and soon LIFE.

    He will not be able to give you a truthful specific answer. That’s not because there are so many either.

    [Editor’s note: Struck out name calling that’s not relevant to the good questions being asked]

  198. Dwayne S. permalink
    August 29, 2011 11:09 pm

    The anonymity of these bloggers creates more credibility issues than intrigue. When the $hit hits the fan(if it ever does) responses to theses blogs will be entered as evidence.

    I understand the critic of the critic of the critic crap, but can someone please tell me what they think are the real names of the cowboys(or cowgirls) wearing the white and black hats in this never ending saga.

    If it can be proven there was truly a conspiracy to defraud people, naming names is going to be crucial. Who is going to go first and postulate the heroes and villains for me. Until that happens, this is nothing but a big circle jerk.

    Living a so-so hike,


  199. switch permalink
    August 30, 2011 6:12 am

    Good question, rocket.

    Maybe the question should be, how many people “qualified” to be “financially free” and have now left?

  200. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 6:39 am


    You have a right to your opinion, but has the dictators say anyone with fingers can have an opinion, you are entiled to yours. I find it funny that those who have to beat the anonyomity to death, only come with their first names and maybe last name intial,.

    How many Dwayne S. in the world?

    That has been explained over and over and over and over. Orrin Woodward his self, well you should read the blog, you are in the thread of Qrush, maybe you should read the posts, before you comment.

    I guess they will have to wait see us in court, since it seems that is the ONLY thing that is important.

    God forbid if the corruption being told that runs through this entire blog should have top priority or mean anything… must just be an oversight!

    [Editor’s note: correction sent it by original commenter]

  201. August 30, 2011 6:41 am

    @Speak Your Truth,

    I understand what you are saying and it makes good sense on the surface.

    The way I see things is this is far bigger than just one small question asking if Orrin is Qrush. That question will be asked, but it is not grounds for anything. This is America and even though we may not like it, people have the right to pretend they are someone they are not, and even lie about it. And unless an individual or class is willing to take legal actions, or a proven crime is committed nothing will happen.

    My objective is to get to the bottom of the fact many people who rose to a pretty high level or the highest levels of TEAM were never given the agreements they signed, and were later just thrown to the ditch.

    Although this is just purported at this stage of the game, if it did happen, then as I have stated before, there seems to be a legit class action lawsuit that should be filed to protect others from this same game. TEAM is not the only tool company with a non-published compensation plan, and this type of behavior if found to be true in a court of law, would be stopped.

    I know there is some legit fear you all feel, but as an outsider I can’t file any form of lawsuit, all I can do is to use some critical thinking to ask the right questions, so to write an article or so on this issue. Two or three weeks down the road, it will be out of peoples mind, and the same purported actions will continue.

    Look how long this community and has been running and for the most part only current and former TEAM members know about it.

    How about I just ask two questions.

    1. Were any of the top leaders in profit sharing, I think director and above terminated after it was found they have entertained moving to a new primary company?

    2. We those who were terminated, still in good standing with Amway/MonaVie?

    I know enough now, to know ALL TEAM agreements are tied directly into the primary companies Amway and/or MonaVie. If you are not in good standing with the primary company, then you are not in good standing with TEAM.

    The questions I asked before are relevant because, it gives you the distributors, another leg to stand on. How can you know if you are in compliance or not, if you never received the agreement.

    By getting the answers to all the questions I asked, I would be able to come to a logical conclusion, that although, TEAM might say, “these terminated or voted out distributors were not in compliance with us or or the primary company.” I would be able to refute that argument, by stating “Since the distributor only saw the agreement for a few moments, during a rushed meeting, and were never given a copy, how can a distributor fully know or even understand the compliance issue, especially since TEAM is, and is run as a completely separate company and compensation structure?

    I will not ask any more questions from this community, until after I have connected with Orrin.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


    p.s. I do want to say one thing. If this community continues to fear taking what seems like valid concerns to a court of law, then you will never be able to fully put this issue to bed. Although this is therapeutic, it doesn’t fix the real issues.

    Although, I am an advocate for the direct selling profession, you have caught the eyes of two very respected critics Mike Collins and Brent Hansen. With the facts, they can take the issues to a whole new level.

    And the three attorneys I gave to Amthax, have fought and won for the distributors who have come to them for help. And they love a good fight for the underdogs.

  202. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 6:57 am


    We personally were in good standing with Q/Amway, and after, never received anything stating otherwise.

    I understand the litigation points, thanks for your information.

  203. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 7:26 am


    This is way bigger than Orrin being Qrush, as we all know too well. This entire site is a testament to that, but Orrin=Qrush is a BIG DEAL.

    This is why: Orrin touts himself as and has the entire team promote his character as Christian, Godly, Leadership Guru, etc., he is preaching from a pulpit; which MISLEADS people into believing that he is trusted as the titles he carries, which then leads people to trust without question, which is exactally why there are so many people who have been burnt!

    Why do you think we trusted Orrin, along with ten’s of thousands of others? Why do you trust or did trust Orrin? This is how people (cons) gain trust.

    If Orrin= Qrush, which people have verified that they know, then people are being mislead, period. Not that his reputation is hanging on this, we already know the truth. Misleading people especially by the thousands (misleading 1 is wrong) but it is WRONG, if not illegal?

    Would you trust Orrin, if you knew for sure it was him? It contradictes everything he SAYS ‘teaches’, makes him a hypocrite, and a con in my opinion and everything he stands for and berates people with, ‘anonymous bloggers’ etc.

    Where is the common sense in this?

  204. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 7:35 am


    BTW~ I have never heard of know anyone who was told they weren’t in good standing.

    The TEAM is the one who took people’s profit-sharing and they are a seperate business and have always been, as I explained before.

  205. humiliated permalink
    August 30, 2011 8:03 am

    SYT, I completely agree with you regarding the issue of Orrin being Qrush as extremely relevant. This is probably how the whole Q & A thing regarding the contracts will shake down.

    The Judge:
    “Mr. Woodward, these people are alleging that you made them sign these contracts under duress and didn’t provide them with copies of same. Did you give these people a copy of the contracts after they signed them?”.

    “Why yes your Honor, I did. I would not lie. ”

    The Judge
    “So these people are just disgruntled ex-leaders who were no longer getting a big enough piece of the pie so have banded together to try to villify you? They simply got too greedy? You are completely innocent in all of this?”

    “Why yes your Honor (bats his eyes ). I am a Man of God, I would never deceive anyone or slander anyone, like these people have done to me”

    A huge part of this is going to be based on credibility of the individuals involved.

    Keep asking the questions all of you.

  206. August 30, 2011 8:35 am

    A serious gap in Orrin’s credibility can also be noted with an observation made by I believe the MLM Punisher.

    Why is Orrin’s post admitting to anonymous blogging different than the one the people on TEAM see behind a password protected website?

    In the public one, Orrin makes a feeble attempt to justify it, however on the website that TEAM uses to communicate with its crew, there is NO MENTION of him anonymously blogging.

    Why would that be? Did Orrin just make a boo-boo when he was copy and pasting?

    Troy Dooley, that in and of itself is pretty damning, doncha think? The message he gives to his TEAM seems to be different than the message that he gives to people when he justifies himself.

    The threads are unravelling, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see a lawsuit dropped any day now in order to stop the bleeding.

    Because that’s what it will take, nothing less. Too many people are talking about stuff Orrin can’t afford them to be talking about…….

  207. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 10:15 am


    Unfortunately, Even though your post are somewhat humorous, you very well could be right. Which is why I am not sure that is the route to take, not to mention all the other things that I wrote in another post? It seems the most logical and possibly the only solution (if you could call it that), but could end up as nothing but another tragedy!

    And because of a personal experience, not the same as Samantha I agree 100% with her. She stated, it is a Legal system, not a Justice system. I have witnessed it to be a legal system and not justice based on Truth.

    Funny, through reality and the real world people don’t need to prove someone else is untrustworthy, steals, cheats and lies, they experience it, live it and know it. They don’t need a judge to decide whether you know this or not. It is Very disheartening, that good honesty people can’t rely on a justice system to do just that; but the reality tells a whole different story because people can be bought and sold, cut deals make deals, the corruption is no secret.

    This is how important the TRUST issue is (set aside reality in the real world that is a no brainer) but for some reason, the MLM world doesn’t operate in the same reality. Yes, it is true.

    I will only speak in terms of the MLM world, based on experience; to magnify my point because it appears that it is overlooked!

    This is why Orrin=Qrush is extremely important, and I believe it is a big part, if not the ROOT problem on why there are millions of people who have been scammed in the industry. So not only is Orrin=Qrush important, it is the bottom line!

    TRUST will make or break the MLM world; it gets people in and keeps them in, and they all know it. Because of the horrendous attrition rates and simply put; the business is unsustainable, period.

    Without the predators ABUSING TRUST the business would collapse. This is why they have you bring in others from your circle of influence. Throw in some sincerity, coercive persuasion, lies and manipulation; and you have the mastered the MLM world. Will they ever admit this, NO. They have nice words and noble causes. But those who have built it, got out of the cult and gathered their critical thinking back, undeniably; know this to be true.

    The system teaches you how to persuade (lie, coerce, manipulate) all the while you are believing you are becoming a ‘good salesman’/builder/(con) because one of the TOP 5 books is How I Raised My Self From Success to Selling.” followed by all the other indoctrinating lies.

    You begin to believe you are doing it right, believe in the ’cause’ and the way ‘all sales’ people do it. Then they tell you; you don’t have to sell anything, you just self-consume and get others to do the same. Then in the same breath, they say you are always selling ( You got your wife to marry you, didn’t you?). Pretty soon, the mixed messages that are designed to confuse (cult) take a hold and you live in a state of confusion, thinking you are doing the right thing, for the right reasons and we all know how it ends.

    TRUST IS EVERYTHING period,(in and outside the illusion) and is the bottom line, in perpetuating the scam. Why people won’t see it or they don’t admit it?…well we know why.

    It never ceases to amaze me how people intentionally overlook the obvious.

  208. No Team For Me permalink
    August 30, 2011 10:57 am

    I believe many of us were in great standing with Amway/Quixtar and MonaVie. As a matter of fact, that is part of the reason many of us left. Orrin was scheduling conference calls on the same nights as Dallin Larsen would schedule MV conference calls and we were told the TEAM conference calls were more important.

    We were told to promote TEAM functions but were strongly discouraged from going to MonaVie events.

    The overwhelming majority of meetings rarely if ever mentioned MonaVie. It was all about community building and how TEAM was so important because the product company could come and go at any time.

    We were strongly discouraged from promoting the MonaVie company websites.

    If we were MonaVie distributors, why wouldn’t they want us going to MonaVie functions, listening to MonaVie conference calls and looking at the MonaVie company websites? doesn’t that sound odd????

    One guess…….my opinion – because selling tools generated much more profits so the primary focus had to be on TEAM tools. But because of the Quixtar lawsuits, they couldn’t blatantly just sell tools. They needed a front company that was legitimate to sponsor people into in order to move those people into the tools. In my humble but accurate opinion.

    I don’t believe any of us were notified that we were terminated by TEAM. But once we began to pull out of TEAM (and not to any other tool system) but into MonaVie directly – that was when the shennanegans began.

  209. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 11:15 am

    Correction: The book; “How I Raised Myself From Failure to Success In Selling.”
    A good mistake. 🙂

  210. No Team For Me permalink
    August 30, 2011 11:27 am

    What about all the lies and deception when moving groups around during the change to MV? Please read the other thread and the recent comments about all the deception and changes to lines of sponsorship during the MV registration process to avoid detection by the Amway/Quixtar lawyers in which people were told to register using the names of family members and entire lines of sponsorship were rearranged to reward loyalty.

    [Editor’s Note: Read more discussion on what went on in the 6 months between Amway and MonaVie here.]

  211. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 11:32 am

    No Team For Me~

    Dead on, it is exactly how they did in Amway also and have always done it, it is about their TOOL MONEY, period. Now with their new lie, they have apparently found a (legal loophole?) way to make it even easier, to promote their tool scam with a little product in only one catagory as the front, but will most people continue buy it in their new system, I think not.

  212. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 11:35 am

    No Team For Me~

    Oh,That would have to be proven too….. and undoubtly could be!

  213. No Team For Me permalink
    August 30, 2011 12:17 pm

    Speak – Oh it could be proven allright. I have plenty of documentation.

  214. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 12:47 pm

    Might want to get yourself a safety deposit box…just saying.

    I agree there would be enough evidence to bury then, the real question is can you TRUST the lawyers, judges, and others?

    It is amazing and I have personally witnessed; that even with concrete, undeniable evidence, and an expert witness, that the court appointed, anyone would have said it was cut and dry. But the dirtbag, lower than a snakes belly, in the very last closing statements to the judge, the attorney lied threw his teeth, with absolutely no evidence to back his lie up, just flat out lied, and the judge ruled for him.

    People are bought and sold daily, judges and lawyers have ‘favors’ they make and cut deals all the time. And this is American, the home of the free? There is corruption being revealed almost on a daily basis, those who don’t believe it or see it, cannot be all there, or corrupt themselves.

  215. August 30, 2011 2:10 pm

    From a reader, here is another article that demonstrates Orrin’s hands in the pro-Quixtar blitz of websites back in 2004-2006 timeframe:

    From a transcript of the audio:

    Second thing is, is that we have partnered with Orrin. We got into a conversation about the negative on the Internet and Orrin said that they built, specifically built a task force to eliminate their nega… to eliminate negative not only on the Internet but to eliminate negative period by doing what I’ll refer to as strategic Web hosting. And they use something known as a blog. A blog is where people write articles about their day-to-day transactions. It’s a journaling that’s online that you just do and you kind of make notes about things that you believe or that you’re positive about et cetera.

  216. free at last permalink
    August 30, 2011 2:19 pm

    I remember getting a call from our upline, telling us to copy our los from Q. But, they said they could not say any more at that time. We kinda knew what was going on, we believed things were coming to an end with Q, & we were going to have the walmart of the internet. A couple of days later, poop hit the fan. We were told not to all resign at one time. Our upline was on the lawsuit, so we were not to have any contact with them. But of course we did. We even had leadership meetings(LOL.) They would come, but they didn’t speak publicly.

  217. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 2:58 pm

    No Team For Me~

    I shouldn’t have left you hangin on that story; there is justice and we know it comes from a higher power, you could call it karma, you could call it you reap what you sow, but the fact remains, it eventually catches you.

    The lawyer I told you lied threw his teeth, well a couple of years after that case he was charged with tax evasion, yep another honest (attorney) soul.

    Then the judge in the case, retired right after that, hmm…. very interesting I may add, possibly, maybe he couldn’t deal with his guilty conscience. How do I know this, his sister was best friends with a very good friend of mine. So, I do believe justice gets served but it will most likely not be the way most would think.

    Amthrax~ Many people know Orrin has done this, and that looky there it is even on audio, but guess what Orrin would lie.

  218. August 30, 2011 3:13 pm

    I have a new blog post about the other “leadership” blogs popping up related to TEAM LIFE. Check it out. This is no coincidence.

  219. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 30, 2011 3:42 pm


    Hilarious! I will make it over there! 🙂

  220. Dwayne Schiller permalink
    August 30, 2011 5:09 pm

    Here is my Facebook profile page. My full name is Dwayne Schiller and my cell phone number is in my profile. Send me a friend request and I’ll consider it.

    Now, how many others will reveal themselves I wonder.

    For what it’s worth, I did read the entire blog and it’s all still a big circle jerk.

    Godspeed, jerkers.

  221. Mike Collins permalink
    August 30, 2011 7:33 pm

    Troy: If I was a bit younger and a little less cynical I might be flattered by your “very respected MLM critic” comment. As far as I know you are the only pro-MLM guy who has expressed having any respect for me. As for the rest of them, they hardly have the balls to debate me. They probably just want me to go away.
    And for taking the issues to a whole new level if I had facts, I don’t need these folks to provide me with “facts.” I think you know my stance on proof. I believe that only a preponderance of evidence is required here. As for our court system all I can say is LOL. The man with the deep pockets almost always wins. I hardly see any of these people (they are probably hard working people living week to week like most of us) risking their families’ welfare on this. And I don’t blame them. I’ve seen the way some of these jack wagons operate. Might makes right!
    I would like you to do something Troy. Read “speak your truth’s” comment posted at 10:15. Whoever this person is, they have one of the best takes on the industry that I’ve heard yet. This is exactly the kind of stuff I’m talking about. The entire industry is full of this dishonesty. It is ALL smoke and mirrors. None of the top money earners are starting at the bottom. NONE of them. They are all getting some sort of consideration. Whether it be a pay off, positioned, or a butt load of points (volume they didn’t earn), they’re getting something. Then they recruit other networkers. Most of them I’ve talked to don’t recruit people at the gas station. They recruit other networkers. Why is this so important? Because none of them build the way they teach from the stage. The MLM owners sure don’t do it and the pro MLMers don’t do it either.
    If I was going to take what I know about the industry and use it to build a big organization I would do the same thing they are doing. It’s what I was taught by pros. You don’t waste your time on most of your friends and family. The pros don’t. They recruit networkers. Why do they do this? Because the other way is too slow in this day and age of the internet and it takes way too much work. I’m not saying there aren’t some exceptions to the rule but they are few and far between.

    You need to understand what these folks are saying about the industry and why it’s true. It ALL comes down to the mathematical equation that is associated with the various comp plans. BECAUSE of the MATH these companies are, like speak your truth says “ unsustainable, period.” And why is it unsustainable? Because of “the horrendous attrition rates” and why are the attrition rates so horrendous?” Because of the comp plans. PERIOD! The “failure” rate is forced. The attrition rate is forced. Look at Monavie. MV is nothing but an anomaly. The culmination of the perfect set of circumstances that came together to form the perfect storm. Nothing there to respect. MV won’t happen again for another 25 years at least. Hopefully never, seeing that they have moved the “opportunity” overseas to third world countries. They are selling people who make $300 a month a dream that they have almost ZERO chance of ever realizing.
    And yet, you respect these people. You count them as your friends. I like what one person posted on the topic. They mentioned white collar crime. That’s exactly what 99% of the industry is. It’s built on lies, hype and false hope. The model is unsustainable and these guys know it which is why they start reprogramming people from the very beginning. The billions are made from the masses. I fail to see how Brigg, Ken, Orrin or any other self proclaimed “leader” deserve to make millions off the unsophisticated, unknowing masses who have been sold a bill of goods.
    Here are a few questions for Orrin. Orrin, you were an EDC in Amway/Quixtar right? My understanding is that you were making approx. $400,000-$500,000 a year with Amway not counting tools. You left Amway to go to Monavie and hit Presidential literally overnight which is about $2-3 million if I’m not mistaken. Here’s my question: did you start at the bottom or did Ken Porter give you a spot with a huge leg underneath? Did you only “build” one leg or did you build two? Did you “arrange” the organization so that your top guys would profit? How many people in your organization have hit new ranks since the move? Here’s the most important one: How many people in your organization have been able to turn an actual profit? I heard that you have 100,000 people in your business. Is that true? IF it is, this is how many people “maximum” that you have making enough to cover auto ship…….. 3225. That’s it. And I would bet money it’s way less than that. How do I know this? Because the math doesn’t change.
    So, to close Troy, am I saying that Dallin or Orrin are crooks? NO. I’m not saying anything like that. Am I saying that they are not godly men? NO, I’m not saying that. I am simply pointing out a few “facts” as I understand them in regard to the MLM industry. I will say that IF Dallin, Orrin, Brigg, or even BK for that matter understand these numbers and think they are giving their common man a hand up then I would have to conclude they are deluding themselves. MLM is a pipe dream for 99% of the common folk. This is why we deceive them to keep them in.
    What the industry needs is some real mavericks who understand ALL of the industry and ALL of the mitigating factors who have experience to back them up to go public in some type of forum and start educating the masses on why it is EXACTLY WHY THEY AREN’T MAKING THE MONEY THAT WAS SHOWN TO THEM.

  222. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 30, 2011 8:30 pm

    Dwayne, I am shocked by your comment at 5:09 pm, I didn’t ever think you would post such a derogatory comment, that is totally out of character for you.

  223. Dwayne Schiller permalink
    August 30, 2011 10:28 pm

    Now for the apology. I know you Miichael and Troy put a helluva lot of time and effort into being stewards and go largely uncompensated for your efforts. To suggest you are involved in a circle jerk is unnecessarily demeaning as I consider you all credible. I have concluded that although your intentions are stellar, you are indeed chasing ghosts. With that said, if Orrin/Qrush and all of the other “deep throats” come out of stealth/blog mode, this stuff will get interesting and possibly useful. I think the key concerns here are that there are people involved with consciences who may have benefitted from the improprieties that Michael Collins has so brilliantly outlined so many times. When the whistleblowers/messiahs decide to unmask themselves, a real investigation can start to take place. From reading all of the posts here, I feel as if there is enough information to go forward with an investigation. Is anyone willing? Does anyone know how to begin opening a complaint with the FTC or the state’s Attorney General with jurisdiction. This is really nothing more than a debate. Who is going to give this fact finding mission its due? Maybe the best way to ask this ask for statements from those have been screwed the hardest? Or is this simply a collection of cathartic moments of those whose consciences have gotten the better of them.

  224. August 30, 2011 10:46 pm

    Hi Dwayne. The key concerns are nothing new to anyone who has been involved with Amway, Team of Destiny, TEAM, or LIFE.

    The primary purpose (in my opinion) of the systems so heavily promoted by Woodward, Brady, et al is to make a great deal of money for the very people promoting it.

    Problem is, Orrin’s system has dismal results and very few people acquire financial independence as a result of their relationship with Orrin’s group of people and his “Leadership” program.

    Orrin’s system doesn’t work, and quite frankly, there is no political will to identify and deter the behaviour exhibited by Orrin and company in Canada. I believe the same can be said about the US.

    Orrin has already demonstrated a few things:

    1. What he says and what he does are two different things.

    2. He fears open and honest discussion about the ethics of TEAM.

    3. He controls information, much as he did in Amway when he was coordinating websites to drown out opposing opinions about the business.

    4. Most importantly, he won’t hesitate to litigate, even if it’s just to stop the damage for a short period of time. Even if it’s true.

    I’m not going to get into the fact that Amway kicked him out and called him a liar. If you got a company like Amway saying stuff like that about you, that really is something. How many people has Amway kicked out and announced it proudly for all to see? What does someone have to do to get that?

    Why do you think he keeps changing his company name? Why does he keep using generic names that are used commonly? To avoid search engine rankings, or at the very least, to blend in? Maybe!

    I think it’s safe to say that as long as there is open and honest discussion somewhere (because it sure as hell won’t happen on a website Orrin controls) that people are being informed.

    I would like to see what you are suggesting, it’s just out of our hands for now. Hell, I wasn’t even in TEAM, but I got a pretty good idea what they’re about.

    Look at their success rate. Look at the cost to participate and ask yourself, Where does the money go?

    It’s not going to the masses. And I haven’t seen to many new communities being built.

  225. Mike Collins permalink
    August 31, 2011 5:44 am

    I can see that most of the people here are passionate about getting the truth out about Team. I can see that it is personal. When I first started writing about what I have witnessed and experienced it was mostly with MV in mind. Because it was personal.

    After being involved with other companies my feelings have now morphed into an almost all encompassing disgust for the entire industry. And it is partly because of the exchanges I’ve had with a number of “leaders” in said industry. I have seen too many of these “leaders” who, to borrow a sports phrase, couldn’t carry my jock, strap making money and it only futher begged the question: how did they do it? I know how they did it and how they continue to do it: They are for the most part a bunch of F-ing liars.

    This blog concerning Orrin and Team is just one more piece of the puzzle if you ask me. These claims being made come as absolutely no surprise to me. Again—–preponderance of evidence. I think that there is ample evidence to convict the entire industry of being a complete sham, at least in regard to being an opportunity for the masses. It is simply not true.

    Anyone claiming it is is either A. a liar or B. naive. People need this information. The question is: HOW do we get it to them?

  226. August 31, 2011 6:20 am

    @Mike Collins

    🙂 Respect is given, Trust is earned!

    Many respect your stance, they just don’t trust you. As for me, I have come to trust you because you do not change your stance. Although, we do not agree on the industry as a whole, I do believe we are on the same page with it comes to disclosing the issues who have polluted it.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  227. humiliated permalink
    August 31, 2011 7:22 am

    Mike, you have no idea of how your post resonated with me. I was involved with MonaVie “for a spell” but fortunately didn’t give up my career, lose any friends or destroy my family relationships. I guess I was a MonaVie Distributor Lite because I never did immerse myself fully in the belief system, but I did enough that I was ashamed of myself for not being smarter. I only heard about TEAM in the periphery. The religious aspect was not pushed at the local level, it was just this amazing business opportunity. But, at the R3G conventions, you couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting a religious (or religiously slanted) speaker. This is when I realized something was up in Mayberry..or more appropriately, Stepford. Then I began to see these “Diamond” characters acting as if they were Deepak Chopra imparting their words of wisdom of life and success. BTW he bugs me too. I thought, “Really? You think you are qualified to tell people how to live their lives because you have made a few bucks off some juice?”.

    Once I really began to research (I talked to someone quaified to explain the juice studies to me etc.) , I found the Juice Scam and now defunct Purple Horror sites. I kiss my computer every day for finding these sites as they didn’t seem to exist when I first started with MV. Long story longer, I found this site. I really felt awful for the pain I could hear in some of the posts. People had lost their homes, their families, their friendships. They were also terrified of Orrin.

    For me, this has gotten larger than the MV cult. It is MLM in general and the financial devastation it is causing. The more I read, the more I can’t believe that this is happening to people every day.

    Back to this site, I have seen most of them get stronger every day and this site has helped them regain hope and self forgiveness through their writings and readings. If that is “all” that this blog does, I think it is a beautiful thing. It is also serving as a resource to others who are considering TEAM, LIFE or any other MLM and I know that Amthrax, Juice Scam etc get emails thanking them make a decision not to join.

    These people have come so far and a lot of them were holding information back for fear of identification, but I see them slowly opening up with facts and evidence. They have been emotionally abused for many years and it will take time to get the strength to take action. I am really not fond of the “shit or get off the pot” attitude of some of the recent bloggers . These people don’t TRUST. My God. How hard is that to understand? Give it a bit more time. Give THEM a bit more time. This is not directed at you Mike, you seem to grasp the emotional turmoil these people are going through.

    I do dissent from your opinion in one regard though. You stated that you didn’t think that Orrin and Brig are not crooks and I vehemently disagree. I am the one that stated to Troy that I feel that the MLM industry is thinly veiled white collar crime. These people KNOW the stats involved in the industry and still they go out and prey on the financially less fortunate. What makes it worse is they camoflauge it in religion and feigned adoration for their “people”. Do I think that THEY actually believe the sh*t they are spewing? On some level perhaps, but I think deep down they know what they are doing is wrong. If they don’t, then they really are sociopathic.

    Sorry for the long post but clearly your words sparked something in me Mike!! Thanks for really caring about these people. Please, please, please continue to stay with them and help them if you can.

  228. switch permalink
    August 31, 2011 8:34 am

    About as good as it gets right there, humiliated. No need to be sorry for the long post.

  229. Mike Collins permalink
    August 31, 2011 9:13 am

    Humiliated : I sincerely appreciate your entire post with one exception. Please reread what I said. I clearly did not say that I don’t think Dallin and Brigg, or Orrin for that matter, are crooks. What I said was “am I saying that Dallin and Orrin are crooks? NO. I’m not saying that” Just to be clear, I’m not saying that. Of course I’m not! I would never say THAT…………..

  230. Mike Collins permalink
    August 31, 2011 5:37 pm

    @ Troy: I’m not sure who the “many” are, but if they are industry “leaders” then perhaps “they” should not trust me. Especially if they are concerned that I’m telling people the secrets of the industry.

    What would happen if everyone, even the new networker, went around jumping from deal to deal, looking for a TOP position or some other consideration to give themselves a leg up on the competition, and then started recruiting only other networkers INSTEAD of following these bullshit systems these guys are promoting?

  231. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 31, 2011 5:39 pm

    @Troy I appreciate your continuous effort to hear both sides of the story, it shows a great deal of patience and respect considering your position and the stance you have taken in the industry.

    @humiliated I assume that I could be one of the people who your “shit or get off the pot” comments could be directed towards, and I am sorry you feel that way. I just want to make sure that the time I spend here is valuable, and will not become wasted. I understand, but do not agree with those who choose to remain anonymous, but of course that is their right.

    I have been in the industry a while, and up until approximately 2 years ago helped perpetuate the lie of MLM as a valid business model. It was only a shocking revelation of truth as I was helping to pre-launch a company in the Philippines that caused me to come to the obvious opinion about the truth of MLM.

    Most people join MLM and are taught that it is a great way for people to earn an extra income, or hopefully even something longer term. The problem is, as that they are showed all the glitz, flash, and mystique that accompanies most growing and successful organizations, but they do not understand the basic principles of mathematics that are involved. In my opinion the three major flaws that exist in MLM are 1. The companies do not pay enough money out to the field. 2. The money that is paid is positioned in the wrong places within the compensation structure. And last but not least 3. The products are hyper-inflated, and then a B.S. story is dreamed up to justify the cost.

    Because the products are hyper-inflated, most organizations turn into simple “internal consumption” models. Then, when companies realize they are on shaky legal ground concerning internal consumption, they all tend to redefine their customer/distributor base, meaning that one time distributors are now called customers. This keeps these “internal consumption” models operating within the limits of the law, but rarely tells the real story of what is happening within the distributor organization.

    Now I know that Troy can quote many DSA statistics saying that customers are what drives the plan and move the product, but in 16 years and 3 organizations, I can count on one hand the number of people who continued purchasing product, after they were not pursuing the business opportunity. So although the DSA is great at putting out statistics, everything that organization puts out is in my opinion not credible. Maybe Troy could shed some light as to where the DSA derives its funding, most people would probably be curious to know and understand that.

    Now, so you understand, I am not opposed to Direct Selling models where people sell product as a way to earn an income, and then turn their customers into distributors as well. Think back to how Amway began, and understand what their model really was in the beginning, it was a way for housewives to earn an additional income selling product. But then the heavy-hitters came on the scene and promoted heavy recruiting, motivational systems and slowly but surely the whole thing was perverted and the “internal consumption” became the driving force. Rich Devos himself warned the big Amway guys about what he saw on the horizon in a great cassette tape called “Selling America”. He knew that if greed and corruption were allowed to enter his model, that the “American Way” would fall under scrutiny and his plan would be destroyed. I think the number of “Tool” money lawsuits that have stemmed from Amway organizations would fully show his fear was real.

    So, I have said all of that to say this. Somewhere in the high 90% of all companies in the U.S. have simply become internal consumption models, which limits the ability of all distributors to have a fair and honest chance of breaking even. Now, if you go to Asia, they sell product in the streets, and most companies that are Asian based have now “auto ship” requirements, meaning they are paid as volume accumulates, it never flushes and it carries over. But U.S. companies are driven by autoship and deadlines and tons of breakage. Breakage is simply mathematical mechanisms that are layed within the compensation plan that stop distributors from earning. And why would companies do this? Its simple, more breakage means more “protection” for the company and more profit for the primaries. So basically the more the distributor force becomes an “internal consumption” model, the more predictable the compensation plan can become.

    There is a mathematical equation, (which Michael Collins eluded to previously) that predict with exactness as to the profitability and success of any companies distributor force, and most people would be shocked to realize that from a networking standpoint alone most companies are only able to bring less than 1-3% of their people to a point where they can actually earn enough to pay for their own autoship. And some models, due to mitigating factors are even less than 1%.

    So the problem that exists is that if you are approached with a MLM model and it is pitched to you as a “business opportunity” it is an outright lie. Why? Because there is a 97% plus chance that you will never earn enough to pay for your own autoship. Why? Because leadership is teaching their people to build incorrect businesses, and the companies do not place the funds in the correct places.

    I have not found any of the top field leadership in the industry who build their group from the ground up, many take “back door” deals, break inserts, cars, vacations, etc. as incentives to join a company, and to move their organization into the company as well.
    People are naive because they are brainwashed by the “success training” they receive, and they continue to follow their “leadership team” wherever they may take them. In the last company that I left, when I approached the master distributor and owner of the company about integrity issues, they opened 17 positions up for me at the top of my two organizations “incentive spots”, that would allow me to bring in other leaders, and position them above my existing team. Most binaries are built this way, and the people at the bottom continue to be pushed further and further down into the organization as more and more so called “leaders” are stacked above them.

    So, as I was working in the Philippines, and I became really focused on helping to bring people out of poverty and into a legitimate opportunity, it was then and only then that I came to the realization of the travesty called MLM. I was literally asking people who could not feed their families to invest $50 which was a weeks worth of wages into a so called “opportunity” where the product was hyper-inflated and not truly marketable, and where the compensation plan required a 10 to 1 ratio for one person to break even. It was then that I started my two year search for the truth, and so I have analyzed hundreds of compensation plans over the last two years and come to one single conclusion, which is, MLM is not a valid business model. It is corrupt and vile as any crime organization that has ever existed. It is like a scourge on the vulnerable who trust and believe that if they just do steps 1 through 8 that they will have the shot at a better life.

  232. August 31, 2011 6:16 pm

    @brent and all – this is very good information, but I would like you to post it on a different post on this site. System Shock would be a good one.

    My suggestion is not to stifle the discussion, but to redirect it to the appropriate place. This post is about Orrin = Qrush and should remain on topic.

    You can see a list of recent comments on the right-hand sidebar, or by visiting the comments feed.

  233. Mike Collins permalink
    August 31, 2011 7:44 pm

    Did you really just say that Amthrax? Orrin is just one piece of the bigger picture. Brent just gave you a huge piece of info and your only concern and comment is that this particular thread stays on Orrin is Qrush? You kidding me? We realize what the topic is about. Perhaps you might want toconsider extending a little leniency in regard to the “rules” in this particular instance? You know, since we just met and all……..

    It is your blog though. Do what you want.

  234. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 31, 2011 8:31 pm

    AMTHRAX, PLEASE DELETE MY POST AS WELL AS ALL PREVIOUS ONES. If this is only about Orrin=Qrush how did we stray to Troy Dooly talking about tool money contracts. Getting a little to cheezy for me. Good luck! Thanks!

  235. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 31, 2011 9:29 pm

    Brent Hansen~

    Thanks for sharing, that was some great information. I am not sure how you came to this site or what your intentions or motives were for coming here or what you wanted to accomplish, but I would hope you haven’t lost sight of those reasons and wouldn’t take this so personal.

    I think if you allow to give yourself a chance to get you know Amthrax, you will find that he is fair, sacrafices, respectful, and is on your side.

    He has asked many people to stay on topic. When we first came here, we never stayed on topic, lol and will admit, it is natural to address people’s post above so everything becomes relevant. I believe you could add to this blog, but it is your choice to leave or stay and I hope you continue to help in the bigger picture of things because we all know, bottom line, there are a lot of people that are being decieved.

    Good luck, 🙂

  236. August 31, 2011 9:35 pm

    Brent – I’m not going to delete your comments, because they are good comments. I just want to keep the conversation on-track on this post. There are plenty of other posts and threads on this blog that are more appropriate for talking about tool money contracts.

  237. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 31, 2011 9:36 pm

    Really guys? Are you all that thin skinned that you get riled up over a suggestion by Amthrax? He didn’t ask for you to delete your post he simply asked that you post it on another thread. Just about all of us on here have been asked to stay on topic, tone down the name calling, etc…and none of us stomped our feet, took our little red wagon home.

    We get it guys, you have come in here and have been the smartest in the room. You have fantastic information and advice…so why don’t you guys take a step back and go back and read Amthrax’s post.


  238. August 31, 2011 9:38 pm

    @Mike – Like I wrote, this is good information. However, it’s not relevant to this particular post. You do know there are lots of other posts on this site in which we talk about tool money contracts and other topics?

  239. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 31, 2011 10:10 pm

    @speak your truth you are right, lots of people are being decieved and they do not understand how or why. The “upline” would have everyone believe it is because they are not good enough, smart enough, or have enough people skills to make it happen, thus the b.s. self development and tool systems. They really have people believing that they are the problem, without ever revealing the true mathematics of MLM compensation.

    I have a valid point I would like to make about the whole Qrush thing, but was told this by Amthrax through email, “We don’t need a debate as to the value — for or against — of Orrin’s identity as Qrush on the site.” So where should I post my comment? I am at a loss here, as I don’t want to break your blogging “rules”, and be considered as “thin skinned”.

    Is there somewhere here on this blog that I can share some thoughts that may be a little off of your focused topic? Is there a place for ranting lunatics to post in? Please advise?

  240. Mike Collins permalink
    September 1, 2011 6:12 am

    @ One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table

    Thin skinned huh? LOL Smartest guys in the room? LOL You seemed to have completely missed my point. WE KNOW it’s off topic! While you’re at it go back and count how many of the posts on this thread are actually on topic.

    Looks like Dwayne was right. Let me know when you grow a set.

    MIKE COLLINS signing off………………………..SMH

  241. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2011 6:44 am


    I will say this, Amthrax is not about sensoring your comments or anyone else’s. He has allowed and does give grace to us. We share the facts, vent, speak our opinions, he has allowed us to have the freedom to heal here because of his grace.

    We all here show him the respect because he has shown us all not only does he deserve it, but he has earned our trust.

    So, now with that said, I know how you feel coming here and not really knowing what to expect but I would say this share, be yourself, and find a post that pretains to what your message is and you will find, he won’t be controlling everything you say. I believe you we can all learn from each other and most importantly help those millions of people who are and will be deceived by the greed. What is your purpose for coming here or what do you want to accomplish?

    BTW~ Amthrax isn’t a dictator; far from it but that would be Orrin/PC & Co., we know that from experience. And for those of us who would be still wondering if Orrin=Qrush, well many of us need no other proof, for the rest of the world they will need proof. So, I hope Troy doesn’t write his ‘article’ on allegations are Orrin=Qrush but Orrin the supreme ‘leadership guru’ says he is NOT, and as much as we don’t like it he has a right to lie in American.

  242. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2011 7:01 am

    Correction should say: America.

    I do agree with Troy that respect is given,we all can be respectful, but it too is earned and If this is about the ego then that is not what Amthrax is about. Which leads me again to ask, what is your REAL purpose for why you are here?

    Do you want to share what you know to help others?

  243. humiliated permalink
    September 1, 2011 7:37 am

    @Mike. Mea Culpa…I agree, you didn’t say you didn’t BELIEVE Orrin & Brig to be crooks. You have me there. 😉

    @Brent & @Mike I feel as if your posts are introductions to YOU and I thank you for that. I think it is my fault because I redirected the conversation with my post but I do want to say thank you and I appreciate (greatly) both of your perspectives.

    Amthrax normally allows us to venture off course with our discussions but he is really wanting this particular thread to stay on track .

    I would love to hear more from both of you and your thoughts about this industry, what a person can do to fight it etc. under the appropriate thread. Please don’t go away, your information could be very valuable.

    I would like to share a little something with you that relates to anonymity. I live in a small community & my up-line contained police officers whom live and work very close to me. That intimidated me into anonymity. I shared this fear with JuiceScam over email and then shortly after that he started getting threats from a lunatic distributor and had to have the FBI investigate someone on his blog.

    For the time being, I don’t trust anyone but a few of the regular posters on this site have my email address, as do Juicescam and Lazy. I am getting more and more brave though and have really been thinking about how I can do more, although I would have to reveal my identity (obviously).

    Now back to the task at hand…is Orrin Qrush?

  244. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 1, 2011 8:11 am

    @Speak Your Truth, I did not say that Amthrax was censoring my comments, but that he merely stated that this thread was not the place for me to debate the value of this topic. I am simply asking where I should post comments I have about this thread as to the “value” of the topic.

    Listen guys, anonymous blogging is not against the law (look at all of you). And if you think Dooly is going to pursue “anonymous blogging” as a point of questioning, you are mistaken. Troy is a professional, and will stick to the black and white legalities that exist within your posts. That is why he has turned this thread from “Orrin = Qrush” to “Legality of Contracts”.

    You can continue on this thread talking about how “anonymous” blogging on the part of Orrin could undermine his character, but to what end? There are many other things that could be discussed that would serve the same purpose. Do you really think people give a damn if he was blogging anonymously?

    Yesterday, on the phone, I point blank asked a current TEAM PC member if Orrin had taken any money from Monavie. Do you know what his answer was? He said “why do I care, that is Orrin’s business, and I don’t have the balls to ask that question.” I then asked him if he would vote for Obama, to which he replied “no”. He said he had a list of reasons why he could not support Obama, and I told him there is a list of reasons why he should not be supporting Orrin. At the top of the list for me would be the question of whether or not he took a payoff from Monavie. To me, selling your Team down the river while moving them into a model that less than .05% of the distributor force can even pay for autoship is a much greater atrocity than if Orrin = Qrush. If money exchanged hands, then that is a much stronger point of focus than the current topic.

    Think about this, for a moment you have the eyes and ears of Troy Dooly who is an industry icon, and you guys are wasting it on anonymous blogging crap, lets get real! I am surprised that Troy is even addressing this blog due to the fact that you all are unwilling to support his efforts. If you have ANY information to give him, ie. dates, times, names, contracts, conversations, money etc. etc., then now is the time to step up to the plate, and go to bat. Support Dooly in his interest in what you are all saying on this blog. The only legal standpoint you have is with your contract disputes, and as much as I like and appreciate your comments throughout this entire blog, the rest of this stuff is fluff. If our current president can undermine our entire financial system, do you think people really give a shit if Orrin is acting hypocritcally?

    Bottom line is LIFE is going to launch, I already have about half of the compensation plan in my head, and it is going to be just like every other MLM out there, and TEAM will continue to roll forward leaving a path of destruction behind them. It doesn’t matter who it is TEAM, LEGACY, R3G, BDU, WWDB, YAGER SYSTEM, TIF, TEAM ONE, etc. etc. etc….they are all the same. They are all companies who are enriching a few, and are based on a lie. The lie is that MLM is a valid business model.

    So Speak Your Truth, if you can read through my previous post, see my name here in black and white, ponder what I am saying, and still ask the question “why are you here” then you are a damn fool, and I have no reason to continue making comments. So my advice is this, take the attention of Dooly, run with it, and if you have a valid case then start giving him the information immediately before he grows bored with this fluff.

    I know I am off topic (sorry) and in the wrong place here, but this is my final post. If anyone would like to discuss this further you can reach me at (208) 431-7999, otherwise I guess I would have to agree with Michael Collins in considering that perhaps Dwayne is the “smartest person” in this room. God bless!

  245. September 1, 2011 9:05 am

    I think you’ll have to forgive the lack of trust here Brent. Dooley could be considered to have a slanted opinion when he has Orrin Woodward listed as a “servant leader” on his homepage. As far as Dooley being an “industry icon”, I will apologize but it’s my experience in MLM that these icons are usually self professed. You know, like Orrin is a Guru?

    Perhaps if the issue of Orrin’s integrity was addressed instead of shooting the messenger we might get somewhere. All I see here is the same crap that Woodward himself pulls. The waters are being muddied by questioning the faces behind what all these people are here talking about!

    The issue is Orrin and his money making tactics. I see it clearly, and I was never in TEAM. I made a lot of posts about the effectiveness TEAM, as well as addressing concerns about their questionable “Legal Fund”.

    Woodward’s silence is deafening. His responses to critics in don’t even contain the original messages! On top of that, his password protected site doesn’t even mention the fact when he admitted to anonymously blogging.

    In short, how he responds to people not in his TEAM is different than how he responds to TEAM.

    I don’t know how 2 different answers to the same question can be considered honest.

    I hope that gives you a better understanding.

  246. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    September 1, 2011 9:08 am

    @Mike – you completely missed my point. I know there are many posts that are off topic. As i said, many of us, at one time, been asked by Amthrax to remain on topic. Yet none of us responded with.

    “Did you really just say that Amthrax?”
    “You kidding me?”
    “It is your blog though. Do what you want.”
    “Let me know when you grow a set. ”

    So yes, i believe you are simply thin skinned and you think you are smarter than the rest of us. I you want to “Sign Off” so be it.

    Amthrax, I apologize for being defensive.

  247. September 1, 2011 10:29 am

    Here is a list of categorized and tagged posts for:

    The most extensive thread about TEAM is in the Ex-TEAM member discussion post with over 1000 comments.

    Talk about TEAM Director’s contracts can be found in the How To Earn Tool Income and Become a Director on Orrin Woodward’s TEAM post.

    A discussion of the merits of the System vis-a-vis financial success can be found in But I Thought We Were In MonaVie To Make Money and the recent System Shock posts.

  248. September 1, 2011 11:07 am


    I do have a slanted view, well really it isn’t slanted it is down right biased in favor for the direct selling distribution channel. 🙂

    As for Orrin and my listing him as a servant leader, I think we covered that in one of the posts above.

    Now as for “icon” You will never find where I call myself anything but an advocate or ambassador for network marketing.

    I am far from being an “icon” in anyones eyes, but maybe my granddaughters, and even that will change as they get older 🙂

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  249. September 1, 2011 1:45 pm

    Troy, you consider Woodward a servant leader, as you have him listed on your website in that category….. Did someone get your password and slip him in there?

    That’s not advocating the industry, that is ipso facto putting Woodward up on a pedestal where quite frankly, he doesn’t belong if even a small percentage of what is alleged is true.

    I’m embarrassed for you as in spite of your extensive knowledge of MLM and TEAM in general you don’t think that there’s any sort of problem with what he does. My opinion only, and people are most certainly free to disagree.

    Does Orrin say people are free to disagree with him? Nope. Only if they are on track for an average boring old life.

    Servant Leader indeed.

  250. September 1, 2011 2:36 pm


    I do find your comment interesting to say the least.

    1. I have never denied I consider Orrin Woodward a servant leader. However, I am willing with an open mind to listen to others who have/had a more personal relationship with him to give me facts I did not have when I wrote that article several years ago.

    2. You are 100% correct, the article is not about advocating at all. As a matter of fact if you read all the articles you would see I did raise some issues in a few, and wrote opinions in others. You would also see I have allowed comments, both pro and con to go public, which is in and of itself a type of advocating so people can see there are more than one opinion. Now that I have found this site, I am amazed no one ever linked to this site.

    3. You are also correct that “if” any of what I have seen is true, that he very well may need to be moved from the “servant leaders” category.

    4. Please don’t feel embarrassed for me, because I am not embarrassed at all. We all live and die by the choices we make, and I do not regret putting Orrin in the servant leadership category, or writing articles about him under the Amway and MonaVie categories. Sadly, I do wish more people who had another view than mine would have commented.

    5. I am not sure where you come to the deduction that “I don’t have a problem” with the purported unethical and maybe civil crimes which are reported on this blog.” Seriously, why would I have asked as many questions in this one thread, and taken time to read the other threads here?

    @Everyone, fear is a huge issue when facing someone who seems to have the power to cause one emotional and financial hardship. It is due to this very real, fear that I provided three of the most powerful law firms in America to Amthrax. Firms who have excellent reputations for winning class action suit, and for digging in places where most people would never look to find the evidence to win for their clients.

    Nothing I end up writing will change the past, nor will it change the future in the short term. It will take past and present people who truly have evidence of a civil or criminal crime to step forward and take a stand!

    Living An Epic Adventure,

  251. September 1, 2011 3:17 pm

    That’s very thoughtful Troy. I must presume that the lawyers you recommend are willing to work pro bono?

    Because I think it’s abundantly clear that the people who would be considered “victims” don’t have the financial wherewithal to hire a “powerful” law firm.

    So if there is something wrong going on, the people who would be able to pursue these matters civilly are not able to. The problem thus continues.

    It is the MLM song that never ends. But I’m everyone appreciates your concern.

  252. Scott Gleason permalink
    September 1, 2011 4:04 pm

    The way I see it you all have 2 choices. You can either sit around living in the past, complaining about all the evil things Orrin and company did to you. Or, you can stand up for yourselves and take them to court and make them pay for what they did. I agree, some on here may not have the financial means to hire a top notch law firm. However, if you all take a stand together, and pull your money, things might be different. You will never know until you get the courage to stand up and fight. Complaining about what they did, and posting to a blog is not going to change a thing. Real change can only occur when you rise up and take action.

  253. September 1, 2011 4:25 pm


    The whole concept of a “Class Action” is that the attorney’s do not get paid unless they can win the case. Or in some cases, where the defendant sees the evidence is high, is willing to settle prior to a final court decision, and pays the attorney’s fees on both sides. 🙂

    And it is obvious that none of these folks have the financial means to initiate a civil case on their own.

    I do have to admit, I am not sure why no one has ever mentioned filing complaints with the FTC or their respective AGs. It seems at least where the contracts are concerned, that based on the series of events that lead to the signing, this type of action might come under the Federal RICO Act.

    One last thing, I fully understand most of the folks here do not like the MLM profession. But, even on the inside we have distributor associations and attorneys who fight for and win for defendants. Just this last week a distributor was awarded over a million dollars against a company.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  254. September 1, 2011 6:00 pm

    A class action suit would be interesting. It would only be to bring Orrin down because his personal fortune wouldn’t amount to much if 10,000 IBOs and former IBOs plus the attornies are taking a cut. 🙂

  255. September 2, 2011 2:11 am


    Interesting comment! Is this about money or justice? Based on what I have seen here, this seems to be far bigger than Orrin. A class action suit, should be about your issues in general, not just Orrin or one tool company. It’s one thing when a company terminated a Tool Organization based on regulatory pressure or some other reason, and quit another when a class of former customers of that company raises up and voices their harm.

    In that case, there would be far more than 10,000 hurt distributors of Orrin, this could be hundreds of thousands or millions and would include multiple companies large and medium companies and may finally put to rest all the issues I have seen raised in this community.

    And you are right, if the attorneys see that there is a huge payday from their willingness to take the case and fight for the class, then fight they will, and more than likely because of their multiple streams of income and the media attention they will bring, permanent chance will come.

    Especially, in this case, where the largest DSA companies are against tool companies already.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  256. Vogel permalink
    September 2, 2011 7:28 am

    Vogel said (on August 24): “Better still, contact your state attorney general and the AG in Utah (home of Monavie) and whatever state TEAM is registered in. The Department of Justice could also be a powerful ally. State AGs, the FTC, and DOJ have often taken legal action on behalf of consumers against the perpetrators of scams like this, and they have had many big high-profile successes.”

    Troy said (on Sept 1): “I do have to admit, I am not sure why no one has ever mentioned filing complaints with the FTC or their respective AGs.”

    What a novel idea Troy! What would we do without you?

  257. September 2, 2011 7:53 am


    Please do not take offense. This is 2011, and this has been going on for years. To make one comment a few days ago, doesn’t negate my underlying concern.

    You suggesting to “file a complaint” and people “mentioning they have filed a complaint are two completely different situations.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  258. Vogel permalink
    September 2, 2011 9:31 am

    Troy, if I or anyone else had any legal preceedings underway involving the DOJ/AG and Monavie, you’d probably be the last person I’d tell. You’ve gone on at great length about your close friendship with Dallin Larceny and you seem to be quite the cheerleader for the company. What would anyone stand to gain by showing their hand to you?

  259. September 2, 2011 10:14 am

    @Vogel and @Troy – before we pass final judgement on Troy, let’s have him finish his investigation and questions for Orrin. I think we’ll be hearing a response from Troy sometime later in September. Until then, we can all play nice, critics and supporters alike.

  260. September 2, 2011 10:26 am

    I am looking forward to hearing the responses Troy gets from Orrin. If it happens.

  261. September 2, 2011 10:28 am

    Sorry for cutting myself off. I question whether or not it will happen because undoubtedly Orrin will swear Troy to secrecy on some of the questions.

    For example, why nobody can see a tool profit contract.

    A superb question would be if it is secret, then how legal can it be?

  262. September 2, 2011 10:36 am

    @rocket – Good questions, and we’ll cross that bridge when and if that happens.

  263. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 2, 2011 5:59 pm

    Brent Hansen~
    Thanks for sharing, and glad you found a place to post your last comments. It really isn’t necessary to threaten to leave; no one here will hold you hostage. lol You are free to go any time you choose. But since I know you won’t be back, maybe you could just read this.

    You brought up a valid point, you stated:

    “At the top of the list for me would be the question of whether or not he took a payoff from Monavie.”
    I agree, along with many other things we know, but good luck, and I hope you can prove that back door deal, we will be watching the MLM news to see how that shakes out, that would help a lot. Thanks for sharing the others things you did also, appreciate it.

    It’s too bad you didn’t stick around to “build the relationships”; there are many people in this ghost town, (probably a century’s worth of time collectively) that were on the team, up close and personal with Orrin/PC and built teams to multiple thousands of people, that could have possibly helped your agenda; but from the sounds of it though you already have the ‘smartest person in the room’ (Dwayne S.). So I guess that means we will have to continue the Veritas Project and where we will take it without you.

    There is something I have to be honest about; you remind me allot of Orrin, in a couple of ways, it appears you demand ‘respect’ and that you don’t have the common courtesy to answer questions or rather answer them like this:

    For example: Your second to last paragraph of your final comments:

    “So Speak Your Truth, if you can read through my previous post, see my name here in black and white, ponder what I am saying, and still ask the question “why are you here” then you are a damn fool, and I have no reason to continue making comments. So my advice is this, take the attention of Dooly, run with it, and if you have a valid case then start giving him the information immediately before he grows bored with this fluff. ”

    Just my lowly opinion, but not going to gain friends that way. 🙂

    BTW~ Thanks for advice with Troy too, You could also read in black and white; that there have been some of us that do support and are interested in what he finds, and also have thanked him for what he is doing. As a matter of fact, I just watched a video that has confirmed at least to me, he is digging and seeking.

    Good luck with your mission. 🙂

  264. No Team For Me permalink
    September 8, 2011 9:41 pm

    Excellent question Webelieved. I’m hearing of a lot of MV distributors who are not a part of Team but have been actively solicited for this new LIFE business. And all of them are saying the same thing……that there will be so much more money in LIFE, to register in LIFE and get on system and people can hear about MV once they start making enough money from LIFE to pay for their MV – in the meantime – just register for LIFE and buy LIFE materials.

  265. September 9, 2011 1:30 pm

    Has anyone heard anything about Troy’s talk with Orrin?

    Do you think that orrin has dodged troy’s call since he reads this blog everyday and knew that the call was coming?

  266. September 9, 2011 2:32 pm

    @team deception – Troy said he would be getting back to me in a few weeks.

  267. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 9, 2011 2:34 pm

    team deception~

    Troy has a video up on his website under ‘lastest’ ‘United We Stand’, that he mentions in the beginning about Orrin/Team and the Systems, but I am somewhat confused by where he is going with the information.

    Orrin dodge calls, reading the blog daily lol… thanks for the laughs.

    Weblieved, great question! I have reason to believe people are re-sponsoring other people’s personals already, shows how desperate and parasitic they are! Ethics?…. they will eventually pay for their LACK of Ethics and all else they have done. I wonder how many more people that were flushed from the MV that they are stealing and re-sponsoring?

    And what are they doing in the ‘other 7 f’s that they are hyping ‘just you wait and see what is coming 11-1-11?’.. possibly going to have other products? Then they coud parasitically attach themselves to other affliate programs or MLM’s then steal others personals and take them into their new gig?

    No Team For Me~

    Orrin is a Presidential in MV and he is solicating other people’s personals to come to his LIEF and how is this following P&P’s and definitely not Ethical?

    Isn’t this exactly what Orrin did when they soliciated all the Big groups out of Amway into in Team system?

    Qrush accuses others of being parasite markets..really?… is only a look in the mirror.

  268. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 9, 2011 2:36 pm

    Thanks Amthrax for answering that.

  269. September 9, 2011 2:47 pm

    @No Team For Me – How are these crossline MV distributors (those not in TEAM) being found in the first place? Can you provide more details on how you heard they are being solicited into LIFE? Like Speak says, wouldn’t that be a violation of MonaVie’s own policies and procedures?

  270. No Team For Me permalink
    September 9, 2011 8:03 pm

    Orrin himself is not the one doing the soliciting. He’s too smart for that. However, several people who are directly in contact with him are. What they are doing is contacting some of the people in the groups that left ie. Haugen, Smith, Sims, Florence, etc. People they used to claim they would not talk to because they were crossline. These are people they used to see at Team functions in their area (Opens, Seminars, etc). They know better than to be calling these people to solicit them for LIFE. Orrin would blow a gasket if anyone from Legacy or R3 tried contacting people in TEAM to get them to join another suppier of tools.

    These are not new distributors who are doing it by accident. These are Directors & RT’s contacting Bronze, Silvers, Golds & Ruby’s who they know fully well are active in other systems of MV.

  271. No Team For Me permalink
    September 9, 2011 8:10 pm

    Speak – Yes, this is very similar to all the stuff that went on before Team got the boot from Amway/Quixtar. All the leaders were told it was just for the tools business – that the lines of sponsorship would remain the same for A/Q. However miraculously, many of those people had their groups rearranged and are now in the TEAM system.

    It’s ashame, but I’d be willing to bet that over the next 6-12 months, Haugen, Goetschel, Florence will be noticing that one by one all these people in their downline will be turning off their autoship w MV to increase their purchases of LIFE products. Just my opinion. It will be interesting to see if I am right.

    But it is ashame for some of those people who spent years building an organization (in some cases 20-30 years) and it could all crumble in less than 12 months for some of these leaders who made a decision to try TEAM several years ago.

  272. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 9, 2011 11:01 pm

    No Team For Me~

    I believe you are right. I also have good reason to believe they have dropped the ‘300’ club, down to, a few 200 and 100 club for most and belive they are already dropping their auto-ships. It is a matter of time before they are contacting and sponsoring those who were flushed to have new sponsors…it has begun.

    It is obviously parasite marketing and you are right it is a terrible shame. The worst shame of all is they have ‘convinced’ themselves that what they have done and are doing; okay.

    Nothing much shocks me, other than I seriously cannot wrap my mind around, how low they will stoop. It is pure and simple Greed and Desperation.

    I have never been happier, than now, to be away from the unethical and immoral behavior that we have witnessed and experience. I am so grateful, we have ‘woke up’.

    Life is way to short and am thankful we won’t be on the receiving end; when this takes it’s final toll…….

  273. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 13, 2011 1:33 pm


    Great questions…..the shenanigan’s never seem to end. It appears one con game after another, and one lie built on another… By the sounds of it I would Bet the IRS and/or FTC might find that some interesting and important data and of course we all know if the money trail is followed… always leads to the truth. 🙂

    I am curious what Troy’s answer will be on your questions.

  274. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 14, 2011 5:37 pm

    Thought I would jump back on just to give everyone a good chuckle. Sorry Speak, I know I said I was done but thought I would show you all a little humor. Now I know this isn’t about Orrin=Qrush, and I was asked to stay on topic, but I think you will let this one slide. I don’t know if this post of mine will ever make it to press where I intended it to be posted, so I thought I would share it here, then I will be gone again. Thanks Amthrax!

    @Howard just wanted to ask a couple of brief questions, since you seem to be so aware of the Monavie success story. Do you suppose things like this could be happening in Monavie?

    If not, where does this come from, and why isn’t it being policed?

    And do you think the “Hall of Fame” boys ( know about this? Hmmmm, inquiring minds really want to know. Help us all understand why Monavie is the best model out there? Please enlighten us all, inquiring minds would really like to know.

  275. September 14, 2011 6:24 pm

    @Brent – I posted about the Xango in my Garage video back in December, 2010. The author of the video even stopped by to leave a comment.

  276. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 14, 2011 8:44 pm

    Brent Hansen~

    No need to apologize to me for coming, I have nothing to do with who comes and goes. I don’t believe you are the one who should apologize, but I won’t go there; Amthrax is pretty awesome and it is his site.

    I don’t have a whole lot of knowledge in MV, we didn’t build our business there, but definitely lost it all basically or a whole lot because of it. It really was because of the corruption that happened entering there….we had no idea til the last minute..we were expecting the ‘Walmart of the Internet and ended up with MV, yipee…one problem our teams were already solicitated and believing they too were going to the WOTI, so you either lost your the mulitple thousands on your teams; after almost a decade and half of blood, sweat and tears or you went too.. long disturbing and corrupt story……

    Do I think this happens in MV?

    This, I do know, inventory loading has definitely been a part of the TEAM program, (Amthrax I believe has an article) and probably still is happening to a certain extent to rank for bonus; at a thousand dollars a crack, per leader.. (12 cases), but I wouldn’t know about a garage full….wouldn’t surprise me a bit, even though it is against the P&P and the FTC; but which con’s in the industry follows the P&P and as far as I know the FTC hasn’t investigated it either.

    We were taught and asked to break all kinds of rules and laws, in Amway and through the process of leaving, supposedly we weren’t really breaking them though, you know it is just ‘business’ “they only have your best interest @ heart.” That kind of ‘teaching’ you won’t find on a cd, it is the ‘secrets’ behind the scene taught through the dictators, you know..the sh*t… rolls downhill, but hey when you’re the fastest flippity, floppin, fantastic, no one is even a close 2nd…blah, blah,blah.. leadership guru’s on the planet, what more could a person expect, they are ‘entitled to break the laws…you know.

    I have seen those video’s also on Amthrax site, pretty darn sad. There is so much (dis)honesty in the industry I can hardly contain myself from going ‘all in’ again… NOT nor NEVER will. But thanks for trying to humor us.

    In this ‘industry’ it is detrimental to choose your friends wisely; know who you can trust; because you never know who will end up being your enemy… good luck with your mission. 🙂

  277. Bob permalink
    September 15, 2011 8:21 am

    Many on here, including the author, have a bit of growing up to do. What I am reading is a lot of accusations based on rumors with no real evidence to back it up. I’m guessing that most of you are people who “tried” networking at one time, but never made it work. “Dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.” That’s a quote from Orrin. Please put that on your bathroom mirror……well….your mother’s bathroom mirror.

  278. mike Collins permalink
    September 15, 2011 10:18 am

    @Bob: by your comment I can conclude that A. You are just another sorry, self-deluded monavie sycophant OR B. another monavie liar who knows exactly whats going on and is profiting from it.
    Hopefully its the former rather than the latter. There would still be hope for you. I don’t know who any of these people are, based on what I know about what goes on in monavie I can conclude that at least a few of them are telling the truth. Why don’t YOU grow up……….. BOB?

  279. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 15, 2011 1:08 pm

    @Bob…you seem like a relatively smart fellow. If you want evidence there is plenty of evidence to back it up. Can you handle the truth? And since some of us only “tried” networking, I hope you are prepared to share your 1099 with the audience here to show us all that you know “how to make it work.” Because only 1 in 31 can actually break even from networking in Monavie, I would guess that there is about a 97% chance that you are full of B.S.

    p.s. Where do you think the “caravan” is going? Is Team trying to beat the 40 year record set by the children of Israel? Hahahaha…why don’t you list here all of the new people who have reached lets say Ruby or above since Team has moved to Monavie, that would be a great place to start.

  280. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 15, 2011 1:50 pm

    Great comments..Looks like Bob/Hud isn’t interested in the Truth…he apparently knows it all already. 🙂

  281. Bob is Crazy! permalink
    September 15, 2011 6:11 pm


    You sound like you’re quoting a Jerry Meadows cassette tape from 1986. Hummmm…. maybe it wasn’t Orrin who ORGINALLY came up with this quote??? maybe Orrin is has rode the Caravan from Amwayville to Quixtarville, and then to TODville, then TEAMville, and then Team-Legacyville, and then Monavieville, and now LIFEville…. BOB… you’re implying that you didn’t just ‘try’ networking, but you ‘made it work’…. Who are you fooling??? Yourself.

  282. humiliated permalink
    September 16, 2011 6:15 am

    Bob, you certainly have some nerve coming on here without educating yourself on the experiences of these people blogging. The lives of some of these people were pretty much DESTROYED by TEAM. They have managed to rebuild their lives through hope, perserverance and TRUE education. They are on here trying to stop the likes of you from going through the same personal hell that they have endured. To come on here and tell them to grow UP is the most moronic statement I have heard in a while. I really hope someone says that to you when you claim bankruptcy or lose all of your friends/family because of this scam because it WILL happen if you continue on with them. Or maybe Mike is right and you are a profiteer, in which case there is a special, toasty little place in hell for you.

    And yes, I have tried the MLM business and to say “success” and “MLM” is an oxymoron. Success in MLM means you have managed to take advantage of many, many people and apparently have no conscience. Some of these people made money but that doesn’t mean that they were successful, are you following?? I define success by living comfortably, with honesty and integrity, having the love of friends and family, pursuing my passions/hobbies and having full use of my mental faculties (ie not allowing a greedy sociopath that answer to the name of Dallin, Orrin or Brig to tell me how to conduct my life).

    But, at the end of the day, if you ever want to come back and tell your story, your REAL story, these people will be here with open arms. Until then, watch your back with TEAM/MONAVIE.

  283. No Team For Me permalink
    September 16, 2011 6:17 am

    Bob (aka Orrin, aka Hud) “The Dogs Barks But The Caravan Moves On” was the title of a cassette by Paul Conn when he did the Amway speaking circuit in 1984. I’m amazed at how many people in Team think Orrin made up these quotes even though most were made famous in Amway circles 20 years ago.

  284. humiliated permalink
    September 16, 2011 6:33 am

    @Brent, you can’t view that list without subscribing to that site, I think?

    There is waaaaay more stuff on EBAY than there used to be! I think that the uppity ups at Monavie Corporate are fully aware of the EBAY issue and quietly condone it, whatever moves the product, right? In fact, I wouldn’t doubt that we would find a lot of this stuff in Dallin’s or Brigs garages! At the very least, it is in some “well respected” Diamond’s garage! RULES SHMOOLS!!

  285. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 16, 2011 7:58 am

    @humiliated, I doubt we would find any product of this magnitude in the garages of the top pins, they simply use straw sellers to get rid of anything. I attended a fly-in at the MV corporate office where someone was brought in from compliance who specifically talked about their “no-tolerance” policies regarding the sell of product through auction style sites.

    The interesting thing was out of the 30 people present in the meeting that day, there were 6 blue diamonds and above from the Corona bunch, and not one of them batted an eye at the talk that was given by the compliance department. Later on after meeting a former Ruby from Corona I learned and discovered more of how they actually achieved such amazing and quick success in that group. They front-loaded product, bought pins on credit cards, and all the other unethical practices typically associated with a product based pyramid scheme. Amazing how they all were guilty of doing exactly what the corporation was preaching so strongly against.

    Its pretty easy to set up a bogus ebay account, email, and using a proxy server to conduct business. MV changed their width qualifications for the upper executive levels, but prior to that I know diamonds and above who were simply working the system and purchasing all of the product for their qualification legs. Its “ok” to spend $5 – $6 grand a week to stay qualified if you gross $10K. That is where all the product is coming from.

  286. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 16, 2011 8:44 am

    I find it interesting that ‘Bob’ (was just a test, LAME); then turned into ‘Hud’ (a.k.a. Orrin) states ‘there is a lot of accusations with no evidence to back it up.’

    Well, if Orrin had an sliver of integrity, was the God-fearing Christian, self-proclaimed Leadership Guru’ he claims to be and wouldn’t lie through his teeth, and just admit to in his dishonorable lief destruction and corruption, then there wouldn’t be a need for the ‘evidence’ of inventory loading that they taught to the leaders to pick a ‘strategic’ spot and purchase it under a ‘newbie’ then have their uplines buy the ‘xtra’ cases back up through that line of sponsorship on top of their already expected purchase, to make it ‘appear’ that they were ‘breaking’ new levels and earn bonuses. Same as with Quixtar/Amway people bought extra to ‘break new pins’. And will be the same in whatever scam they flog.

    If he and the Pc weren’t such a liars, There also wouldn’t be a ‘need’ for evidence that he is Qrush, or that he dictated along with the Pc’s who stole people’s profit-sharing and teams.

    There also wouldn’t be a ‘need’ for ‘evidence’ during the registration into MV that they dictated people to steal other’s personals, trade them, along with threats and other BS, put them in other people’s family names because it would have been ‘illegal’ to put them in their own names because their 6 month no-compete wait wasn’t up and they could ‘change’ it later,(didn’t happen) therefore, those people lost their business’ anyway.

    There also wouldn’t be a ‘need’ for Orrin to come here as an anonymous identiy if he had the guts and integrity to tell the Truth!

    As a matter of fact if Orrin and the other pc weren’t so corrupt and such liars, WE WOULDNT EVEN NEED TO BE HERE to tell about it!

    I agree with Humiliated, there is a nice toasty place where they are ‘holding their spot’ in hell.

  287. humiliated permalink
    September 17, 2011 7:21 am

    Very interesting Brent. The company that I work has policies that they feel are crucial in maintaining the integrity of the company and we are required to sign off on these issues. There is a zero tolerance policy and people get fired ALL the time for non compliance because they are usually sensitive issues, much like this one.

    It sounds to me like Monavie Corporate just pays it lip service and that is absolutely where it ends. Just ‘bring in the guy to say the stuff and we are off the hook’. Do you know of ANYONE high up that has been reported, caught and fired for doing this?

    I am curious as to whether they actually move any of the product on EBAY though. I mean, if you were an actual DISTRIBUTOR, you wouldn’t buy it (the juice etc., not the clothing) because that reduces your bottom line. You also said in a previous post “, I can count on one hand the number of people who continued purchasing product, after they were not pursuing the business opportunity”. We know that the general public is not really buying it then, and , in my area I have seen people try to sell it at garage sales for pennies!! Who the hell is buying this stuff on EBAY??

    Sorry to take the conversation off track Amthrax but I have always been curious about this. And speaking of taking this conversation off track, I note that there has been very little discussion about Q-Rush. Have you heard anything from Troy in the last few weeks?

  288. September 17, 2011 10:19 am

    @humiliated – Troy said that he would be getting back near the end of September due to his travel commitments.

  289. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 17, 2011 2:36 pm

    @humiliated, I have sold plenty of product myself on ebay, so I know there is a market for it. When I walked away from MV in 2008 I had 6 or 7 cases on hand myself, place it on ebay and it sold immediately. Of course, I wasn’t worried and didn’t care about any compliance issues at that point.

    Kind of makes me chuckle though as I remember the client/volume reporting back in the Q days, and how the corp. had a major case of c.y.a. going as they had the distributors “click to confirm” that they were in compliance with the client/customer pv rules. It was then left up to us who were at the platinum/direct level or above to police our groups and make sure that actual customer sales were happening. I believe if push ever come to shove with the FTC, that Q would have hung the platinums out to dry, if there was ever a report of a “bogus” member/ client volume report. I remember specifically reading through documents that specifically stated that platinums were ultimately responsible to enforce this rule within their groups.

    It all boils down to this in the end for all product based pyramid schemes. The product is too expensive so therefore it cannot be sold at SRP, the companies do not pay out enough, and they pay the money out into the hands of the wrong people.

    I analyzed a new comp plan for a guy the other day, new company called 7.2. Would you believe that 20% of all compensation dollars were allocated to 95% of all distributors, and 80% of all compensation dollars were allocated to only 5%. Seems to run true to the industry, best case scenarios and ratios tend to be 1 in 10 (from the network) or 1 in 15.

    Many new companies are copying Visalus with the “3 to get yours free” program, which will pay your autoship if you have 3 customers producing the same volume as you. Although this is a step in the right direction for most companies, the success to failure ratios for most of these companies are still 1 in 10 or 1 in 20. That is why mlm will not work, because for one to win, many have to lose. Couple that with internal consumption, and you have a recipe for disaster, case in point the decline of MV. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall and heard the conversation between Orrin and Dallin. I am almost sure that allowances have been made so that team will not leave MV altogether, or there is a little bit of forced loyalty there due to previous business arrangements.

    So what is next? Team moves on with Life, a company with a best case ratio of 1 in 11 from the network. A stairstep breakaway plan set up just like Amway with a bunch of money being pushed to the top. When you have 1,000 on your team in Life 100 will be able to cover the cost of their own system. Unless of course you go out and get 3 retail customers who are willing to pay a hyper-inflated price on their systems which will cover the cost of yours. But, leadership is sexy isn’t it? I could take their same payout, and comp plan, and create something dynamic with it, but it will never happen. Because, those at the top, will always remain at the top.

  290. outside looking in permalink
    September 17, 2011 8:04 pm

    Mr. Hansen, apparently you haven’t seen the LIFE comp plan yet.

  291. outsider permalink
    September 18, 2011 10:27 am

    I have family members fairly new to doing mv, and ebay sales is a frightening topic for them (deservedly so, I would say!). They initially *refused to believe* that any mv was being sold on ebay (!!), because they had been repeatedly assured by their sponsor/upline during their recruitment that this could NOT happen. They were freakishly AFRAID to take a look on ebay to confirm the truth that they had been conned. When they eventually did look, they conveniently decided that product was offered (by “losers,” I guess), but that this is not necessarily evidence that product is ever actually purchased thru’ ebay . . . sigh . . .
    Hence, it is a breath of fresh air to me for someone to admit to an actual ebay transaction. Thanks for telling that truth!
    This leads me to a question for you. It certainly makes sense that the bigger cons dump the extra inventory they purchased thru’ 3rd parties on ebay, and we’d all expect to see that happening, just like we’d all expect that no one still in would admit to the practice. But it doesn’t make sense (to me, at least!) that anyone would actually buy mv off ebay. I mean, since ALL distributors desire MORE pv (or whatever they call their “points” in mv-speak), but LESS actual [crappy and virtually unsellable] product, I don’t get this part. So my question is: Who are the ebay buyers? Can you (or anybody else) enlighten me? It doesn’t seem likely that there could possibly be enough folks that have bought into the health claims, yet not the so-called ‘business’ to be snapping up all that ‘bargain-priced’ juice . . . ?

  292. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 18, 2011 1:42 pm

    @outside looking in, don’t know what to tell you about the LIFE comp. plan. Simple formula about the strength of a mlm compensation plan. Take the basic package, autoship, etc. and figure out how many people on that package you need to break even from the network.
    That will give you a maximum success ratio from the structure, for instance the MV comp plan takes 15 right on 100 BV and 15 left on 100 BV to pay your monthly autoship with tax and shipping. Therefore with MV the maximum success ratio is 1 in 31, or 3.2%. But, with mitigating factors the actual number of MV distributors breaking even is actually less than .5% (source is mv income disclosure statement, any year).

    Life has a 5% payout once you have generated 150.00 in group sales, 10% at 300.00 group sales and 15% at 500 group sales. At a minimum package of $50 per month you would have to have 10 people at $50 to generate the 500 in group sales. That would mean 10 people on system at $50 in order for you to reach 500 which could break you even unless you had two teams at 300. If you had two teams at 300 then you would only net $15, which wouldn’t cover your own “system”.

    So lets just say that you are super system salesman and bring 3 teams in at 150 per team, and generate and extra system on one team to reach your 500. You’d be paying out $7.50 to two teams or 2X $7.50 = $15.00 and $10 to the other team which would total $25. Which would leave you a net profit of $50.00 At that point you are breaking even, but what about your team? So you see, the formula doesn’t change the best case scenario from the network, is a 1 in 11 success ratio.

    Now I know of course you all will be doing much better than that because the package is going to be grabbed up by Fortune 500 companies nationwide, so most people will be able to cover their system simply from retail customers…hahahaha….So if that is the case, the networking income will only be secondary to the retail part of the plan. But still a 1 in 11 ratio is the best that you can provide. Better than Amway or Monavie, but still not the super duper plan for the masses that everyone is touting it to be. Still a 90% plus failure rate, anyway you slice it. And that is MAXIMUM SUCCESS RATIO, without any consideration for any mitigating factors. Do mitigating factors exist? That is something you will have to ask your upline.

    So @outside looking in, if you have any further light and knowledge to shed on the topic please email me at, and if I am incorrect on my calculations, or hasty on my judgement, I will type an apology here on this blog and refrain from further discussion about the LIFE comp plan. Documentation beats small talk any day of the week. Please provide me with such.

  293. outside looking in permalink
    September 18, 2011 2:42 pm

    Mr.Hansen. Please take into consideration with your calculations. After 11/1/11, ticket cost for LIFE seminars count for PV.

  294. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 18, 2011 4:19 pm

    @outside looking in, and how will that change the mathematical equation? That simply means you will have to move more tickets to cover the cost of your own, thus creating the same sort of ratio. Unless of course, there is a seperate “bonus” for ticket sales that would help reduce the equation. Do you care to elaborate with math and dollars, or is this just hypothetical reasoning?

  295. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 18, 2011 4:24 pm

    @outsider, its simple, the people buying juice from ebay are the real customers who are looking for a better deal. They realize the compensation plan is crap, but like the product so they are buying where they find the best value, just like every other normal consumer. Furthermore, the people selling it don’t care if they sell it because the commissions are already paid out of the box so if they get their funds back that is a plus for them.

    Remember if you look at the mv income disclosure statement they have simply redefined who their distributors and customers are. That is what mlms do to make it look like they have an actual customer base. Read through the mv income disclosure statement and see if you like how they define a distributor and customer. They classify over 90% of their distributors as customers because you know, real distributors would actually earn a check..hahahaha!

  296. outsider permalink
    September 18, 2011 6:55 pm

    Brent said, “the people selling it don’t care if they sell it because the commissions are already paid out of the box so if they get their funds back that is a plus for them,” and yes, I think most see that – that’s clear enough! I just didn’t expect that there would be very many “real customers who are looking for a better deal” out there. I wondered if there was something else to it, but perhaps my imagination didn’t stretch far enough to encompass any sizable group of folks who “realize the compensation plan is crap, but like the product!” That’s a pretty odd group to me, because it seems natural that when one does realize the compensation plan is crap, he should be inclined to check into the juice, itself! Yikes, I guess not. ?

    . . . Maybe they are ex-distributors who still believe in the superjuice myth, even though the superbusiness has already bled them dry financially?

    Any way, thanks for reply. I was just wondering.

  297. humiliated permalink
    September 19, 2011 7:39 am

    That was what I was kind of trying to figure out myself Outsider. Because there is an expiration date on the products, it must be sold within a certain time frame so it might be tough to sell any substantial amount of the product. But, you have a point Brent, they already have their commission so anything on top of that is gravy.

    Outsider, I do think that you are right, I think people refuse to let go of the notion that it is “magic juice” and will continue to buy it in the Ebay forum.

    Outside looking in, we can’t wait to hear what you have to say about how the seminar income effects your bottom line.

  298. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 19, 2011 8:14 am

    @humiliated, don’t underestimate what people would be willing to do to qualify. Purchasing large quantities of product are simply par for the course. A friend of mine on the east coast was a former diamond (reached it in 4 months). He was taught by his upline, (no names, from Florida, huge pin) to simply secure all 7 required positions through dummy corporation names. That way if qualification was ever a problem, he could simply purchase enough product to have the required star 500 positions filled for rank advancement, and qualification. Even if half of those positions had to be “bought” out of your personal funds and you qualified as a diamond, or blue diamond, it would still be a profitable proposition.

    Binaries are some of the most dishonest organizations with continuous break inserts, team moving, and deals, its amazing that they last as long as they do. Although most MLMs are doomed for failure, I have a particular infinity against binaries. I found this article that really describes some of the reasons why binaries are bad. The ironic thing is I have experienced almost every single one of these points as I was formerly engaged in two different binaries. This article almost perfectly defines what goes on in binary plans, add all of the other crap and you have a sure recipe for failure. These plans are nothing more than massive money grabs which usually grow for 2-5 years then go off grid.

  299. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2011 9:29 am

    Brent Hansen~

    Thanks for sharing that link and all the other information. It is an absolute shame how they distract and create diversions to keep the majority from being aware of the facts by selling them on the ‘hype’ of the false ‘hope’ and what becomes the shattered dreams.

    Orrin must have overlooked this article, while doing his ‘study’, also must have forgotten to tell everyone else when he did his supposed ‘bench marking study’ lol; after suing Q/A for being a ‘illegal pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products’.

    His ‘study’ was done and the conclusion was MV was the “BEST” for the whole Team’ to shift to with their exceptional ‘pay-plan’ …I think he meant to say the ‘best’ for his quick cash in for him and the PC, just a oversite on his part I am sure… because we know how much he ‘cares’.. about everyone else’s success..

    The truth.. He could give a rip who loses…as long as it isn’t the PC and especially wouldn’t not for himself.

  300. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 19, 2011 1:31 pm

    @speak your truth, you got it right amigo! By the way, when is @Bob going to respond and list all of the Team people who have reached ruby in MV since the change over? And when is @outsider looking in going to shed further light on knowlege on the Life compensation plan? And since @outsider looking in knows so much about the Life plan, maybe he/she could provide some further insight as to any possible payoffs taken by Team P.C. to join MV. Oh but wait, here is my text message from last week from a Policy Council member, and I quote, “I am taking most everyone off of Autoship” (referring to juice). Amazing huh! Now the question really is, why MV would choose to continue the relationship with Team when MV knows they are all going to Life? Anyone care to take a stab at answering that?

  301. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2011 3:25 pm

    Brent ~

    Doubt they have the guts, especially ‘Bob’,(gutless) to come back and answer you….but if they were to prove me wrong then it would make for an interesting conversation that I would love to learn from. Would definitely be entertaining. 🙂 It would be a ‘teaching moment’ for sure, to see you explain the LieF compensation plan… and I am looking forward to

    Thanks for the confirmation on the PC telling everyone to ‘drop’ their autoships..that is ctystal clear for those who witness that with their own eyes, ha. You ask a very inquiring and real question, about this. What kind of deal could possibly have been cut to make Dallin ‘buy in’ to this? It does not sound like a ‘win-win’,… Orrin’s famous stolen quote.

    Not making any sense at all, unless there is truth to the rumors. Someone would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to not notice there is trouble in paradise. I really can’t fathom how Dallin wouldn’t notice…do… that the Companies ‘autoships’ are flying backwards which mean NO more ‘residual income’ for Dallin or Co.

    You are right it is quite amazing, the schemes they continue to come up with in order to try and hang on with everything; to their illgotten gains. It is more like trying to hang on to water.

    The thing of it is ‘Bob’ could say they broke some ‘gems’… not legitimately of course and it would be very rare for anyone of them to hold it. We all are fully aware of the lack of customers (your teamates you sponsored)..There are so few ‘real’ customers it isn’t worth counting, if any of them had a shred of honesty to tell the truth.. as you also pointed out so elquently about the companies and the customers.

    I am aware of some ‘diamonds’, ’emeralds’, ‘rubies’, etc.. that broke …lol..but that is about all they did; in other words their genius idea of the ‘stretch-n-secure’ = ‘inventory loading’ game and their 300 PV club (they have really nifty code names for their games); which no doubt has put some people in some serious negative cash flow and credit card debt. Then in turn was the only reason they ‘broke’ anything..especially others bank accounts.

    It is just criminal and heartwrenching to me how the unsuspecting and uninformed, don’t have a clue, fall for their ‘proven’ system and so many people go into debt; while they amazingly blind them they with their bullsh*t they will get rich. You have been pointing this out very clearly on the facts about the loses.

    I know from experience how this exact process works, and am embarrassed that we too never looked at the real numbers and facts,… until we left…. we were too busy building numbers and helping others, and ignored the Fact that the business is designed to fail. We did know it was unsustainable,.. that was a no brainer for builders, but to look at or have the desire to understand the compensation plan was an entirely different story.

    So I am a perfect example of; and sorry to say I know how that process of distraction and illusion works, inside and out. That is why I appreciate how you explain it so well.

    Keep sharing…I believe you and Mike bring some good things for the uninformed. Oh and the informed too…lol 🙂

  302. outsider permalink
    September 21, 2011 11:46 am

    Oh, gotta love this last part of Brent’s post:

    “It is high time that MLM companies begin to realize that to create loyalty and longevity, THEY MUST BEGIN TO RUN THEIR COMPANIES, LIKE ANY OTHER COMPANY, AND TREAT THEIR ASSOCIATES LIKE PARTNERS.”

    Gotta love it because, in essence, that’s saying, “it’s high time for MLM companies to stop the shenanigans and not BE MLM companies any more!” 🙂 What a concept . . . :)!

    And of course, we all know there’s no chance of that happening because con artists have zero interest in creating any bonafide loyalty and longevity; they’re already perfectly satisfied with brainwashing people just barely long enough to get their $. That’s the ugly truth. And it’s pretty obvious, if you’re looking at this from the outside (as I am).

    [And, P.S. to anyone reading this who has any doubt about that ugly truth: PLEASE – before you lose $ (or more $, as the case may be) – go to someone you trust who is completely OUTSIDE of all MLM and ask for an objective opinion. It’s pretty simple to see the truth as long as no one has begun spinning you any MLM tall tales yet!]

  303. Mike Collins permalink
    September 21, 2011 3:32 pm

    Just follow these eight simple steps and do them persistently and consistently over the next 2-5 years and you will be free…………NEWSFLASH! The eight steps is for rookies and suckers!!!!

  304. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 21, 2011 3:33 pm


    Thanks a bunch for sharing this a real eye opener, even though people have an idea of this unfair business practice, no one ever reveals it! Great Job! I hope the FTC, FBI, SAG, the President of the U.S. for that matter and any other consumer protection agency gets their eyes full of this dispicable sorry case of a ‘business opprotunities’ (MLM), that blind-sides the American people by the millions.

    I have nothing else to say other than this is bullsh*t and all the more reason’s they deserve to be brought to justice, shut down.. for not disclosing this and deliberately and knowingly.. SCREW those… who did the flipping work!

    Thanks for throwing in the humor…it was much needed to say the least, I could barely finish it.

  305. September 21, 2011 3:34 pm

    I have moved Brent’s comments over to a new post here.

    His comments are completely off-topic and deserve their own post. Please continue the binary discussion at the new location. Future comments that are off-topic will be moderated.

  306. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 21, 2011 3:42 pm


    Thanks for giving this a different thread of it’s own; this is very valuable information that if anyone reads it I believe will open the eyes to the TRUTH and show the brand new person and those who have been sucked in to the biggest fraudulent deceiving scheme.

  307. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    September 21, 2011 4:50 pm

    I’ve read it, and it is the most revealing piece of information on how crooked this industry as a whole is. I don’t have anything to say, which is strange for me. It has left me utterly speachless. Anybody still thinking about getting into this industry after reading this has to be flippin nuts.

  308. Mike Collins permalink
    September 22, 2011 9:46 am

    Yes, thanks Amthrax

  309. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 24, 2011 4:54 pm

    Here is part #1 from Troy Dooly’s special investigation on tool companies. Troy promises more episodes to come.

    Orrin Woodward:–this-week-on-aces-radio-live

  310. Vogel permalink
    September 24, 2011 10:48 pm

    Such hard hitting investigative journalism…pfft!. I got 8 minutes in and started wishing I was having major dental surgery instead. Perhaps someone else is willing to squander a precious hour of their life listening to Drooly’s obnoxious MLM pom pom waving drivel and give us the highlights.

  311. September 25, 2011 4:21 am

    @Brent & @Vogel,

    Brent, this is show has nothing to do with the report I am doing. And was not part of the research “investigation” into Orrin. This was focused on the difference and how one term is misused and misunderstood depending on the culture a distributor is coming out of.

    Vogel, I fully understand your comments. Since this show does talk about Orrin as a tool company owner, it doesn’t have anything to do with this issue.

    My goal is to release the first article in a series on tool companies this week, and at that time the one on TEAM/LIFE Orrin will be first.

    I will notify the Amthrax community at that time.

    Sorry for the interruption.

  312. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 25, 2011 12:45 pm

    Thanks Troy, I appreciate your willingness to support this thread by what you are doing. I do have one comment about this radio show you did, and that is this. I chuckled as I listened to you and your guest discuss your primary concern of tool companies Both of you stated that your concern was that tool companies may help you lose the focus of your primary company. In all reality Troy “TOOLS” and the “SYSTEM” have been and always will be the primary focus of Team. Somehow I do not believe that you fully understand yet Troy. Tools and training are their business, it is how they have become wealthy at the expense of the masses. And apparently, their “product” is not what it is claimed to be, otherwise why would they have a few “job optional” people, and thousands losing money every month? They understand that the longer they stay with Monavie, the further loses they will incur. No one is moving on with that company, they cannot, the mathematics are horrible.

    In my opinion, it boils down to two things, 1. MV will let them roll out this new company because lets face it, no one is making money on juice, and, a major pullout by Team would be a huge loss of face on part of the corporation. And 2. For whatever reason (God only knows, but I have my suspicions) Team has a “loyalty” to MV. Lets face the truth here, on my cell phone right now, I have a text saved from a certain member of the Team PC that states, “we are taking everyone off of autoship” (meaning juice). So apparently, the new LIFE business is going to make them lose their focus on their “PRIMARY” business, hahahaha! What will MV do with the loss of autoship volume now? Perhaps go to Africa, or South America or some other poverty ravished country. Hey, if its not working in the U.S., why not rape some other place instead?

    You see in the end Troy, approaching this debacle with a dissonant attitude towards those on this thread will only produce the answers that I think Team supporters would have you find. These guys on this thread are telling the truth, and part of seeking this knowledge would require you to somewhat believe that they could possibly be telling it how it is. If you play the part of investigative spokesman for the industry, the answers you receive will simply be sugar-coated. Im sure that Timothy Geithner and Ben Bernanke would be the last two on earth to admit to the public that Obama policy has screwed up our country. So why do you think approaching Team with a supportive attitude would produce different results than these?

    Vogel you are right, I expected that Troy would hit the topic a little harder, and I was excited to listen in when he was live, instead I found another fluff piece on the “greatness” of the industry. Looking forward to your article Troy, but its time to talk about the taboo, lets put this crap out the world to see. All I ask Troy, is that you be unbiased in your examination and let down the industry apologist gig for just a moment. Thanks!

  313. Vogel permalink
    September 25, 2011 2:35 pm

    Brent, every question you asked of Troy was perfectly reasonable. However, it’s like asking a pom-pom waving cheerleader to root for the opposing team. Ain’t gonna happen.

    Troy is a sock puppet for MLM companies. The only thing we’ll get from him is what the MLM execs want us to hear. If you ever hear anything negative from Troy about Orrin/TEAM it will be because his MLM overlords are hanging Orrin out to dry on purpose, or because the demise of TEAM/Monavie is a fait accompli and the rats have begun leaving the sinking ship (pushing aside the women and children as they make there way for the lifeboats of course) and using sock puppet Troy to throw down some suppressing fire on the front line while the execs and kingpins make their retreat. He’ll make a great Monday morning quarterback too, telling us about all the grave concerns he had — but said nothing about until after the fact.

    The recording you linked to seems identical to every other “report” I’ve heard from Troy. It’s mind-numbing fluff and MLM party-line sound bites being passed off as hard-hitting investigative journalism (man, it makes me laugh to even mention the words investigative journalism near Drooley’s name).

    He’s the MLM industry’s Tokyo Rose.

  314. Scott Gleason permalink
    September 26, 2011 2:13 pm

    I thought about posting some thoughts in defense of Troy, but I can see now it would be fruitless. Nothing he says or does will ever make any of you happy. The simple fact of him being a proponent of the MLM industry has tainted your feelings towards him. In all of his posts here, he has never said a negative word toward any of you, and yet you have no issue calling him a “sock puppet for MLM companies” If I were him, I would say to hell with all of you and never come back. He has no vested interest in your fight with you Orrin, yet he has come here to give you advice and see what he can do to help. You sit behind your computers and pseudonyms and hurl insults and accusations with no regard for the person on the other end. I understand you all feel you have been wronged, but that does not give you the right to denegrate others. I’m sure I will get blasted for this, but deep down I think you will all agree I am right. Give Troy and chance and you might be surprised at what he can do.

  315. Vogel permalink
    September 26, 2011 2:53 pm

    Just callin’ ’em as I sees ’em Scotty. I’m sure he’s been called much worse than “sockpuppet for the MLM industry”. I wouldn’t have said it if that essential truth weren’t abundantly evident in Troy’s trite little reports.

  316. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 26, 2011 3:00 pm

    Scott, I appreciate your comments, and I am not hiding behind a pseudonym. I also appreciate Troy as well, and think he is a wonderful person. Please do not be too hasty to pass judgment on how I may feel about another person. Troy has been very cordial with me over the last 6 months and I appreciate his efforts and kindness.

    The only thing I question about Troy is his ability to go into this thing with a totally open mind. You are not quite right saying he has no vested interest in this argument, when in all reality EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE INDUSTRY should have an interest. This is much bigger than Orrin Woodward, and I have repeated this over and over throughout all of my posts.

    I honestly don’t believe that those on this thread have a single leg to stand on in their battle against Team, but none the less, I believe that what they are saying is true as I have witnessed all of these atrocities first hand myself.

    If I seem to come across harshly towards Troy it is simply because I hold him to a higher level of integrity due to the fact of who he is, and what he stands for. I only hope he is able to put aside his loyalty to toe the party line and perhaps come over to the “dark side” just a bit so at least there might be a glimmer of a chance of exposing the corruption.

    Thank you for your comments Scott and I appreciate the feedback, point well taken.

  317. Vogel permalink
    September 26, 2011 3:06 pm

    Troy is actively soliciting business as an “online reputation” consultant for MLM companies. He even has an extensive price list for such services on his website.

    Please tell me how that’s consistent with impartial journalism on the subject of MLM? If one is going to be an eager whore for the MLM industry, then they have to live with the consequences.

    My calling him an “MLM sockpuppet” and “the Tokyo Rose of the MLM industry” was entirely justified.

  318. September 26, 2011 7:47 pm


    I love reading your comments 🙂 I do have a question, where in the world did you ever get the thought I would write anything impartial to direct selling/network marketing/MLM?

    Everything I have ever written has been partial either in a positive manner or a critical manner depending on the specific situation.

    I am about as impartial towards MLM as you are.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  319. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:12 am

    @ troy: I have been reading vogels posts and I have been giving this a lot of thought. feel free to correct me if I am wrong vogel.
    I believe vogel is trying to say That in his mind It’s hard to take anything you say seriously Because of the fact that you make your living off of the industry. And because to make your living of the industry You are very selective about whose toes you will step on. I believe he is saying that You have a very carefully crafted persona and online presence that is specifically for making money on the mlm industry and that this fact heavily slants your stories and pre determines who you are willing or not willing to offend or p*** off.
    Vogle on the other hand does not seem to care who he pisses off. he obviously has a good understanding about how the industry really works. I can appreciate most of what he says. I do wish however that if he was going to post in this manner that he would use his real name but that is just my opinion.
    I believe this is why he says that you are whoring for the industry. I apologize in advance if I have Interpreted your posts incorrectly vogel.

  320. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 9:15 am

    You basically got it right Mike, although I wouldn’t have used as much sugar-coating. I’ve read Troy’s reports and comments enough to know what can be expected from him. His “reports” on Monavie for instance are useless. It’s like Dallin is talking but Troy’s lips are moving. Troy disseminated false and misleading information about Monavie, for instance claiming that Larsen left Dynamic Essentials before the company got it in trouble with the FDA and that Larsen wasn’t responsible for the illegal advertising that got the company shut down and fined. Troy was also doing damage control for the company by swearing that the product isn’t being marketed using illegal medical claims — he actually had the gall to say “I have reviewed this company inside and out, and have never seen any cure claims”.

    How can that be? I can find dozens of these claims in a couple of minutes on Google. It’s safe to assume that Troy knows how to do a Google search, so the only logical assumption is that Troy is purposely lying and covering up the company’s malfeasance.

    Then there’s classic Dooly fluff pieces like this:

    The MonaVie Story: Dallin & Karree Larsen Prayed And The Rest Is History

    Of course I don’t trust him to be objective or forthcoming, not should anyone else. Quite the opposite in fact. I’m inclined to believe that whenever Troy says “white”, the truth is actually “black”. His only value to me is that I can discern bits of the truth by reading between his lines and inferring the opposite of whatever he says.

    When someone hangs a sign on their website offering online reputation management services, and when those services consist of generating propaganda for MLM companies like Monavie, then obviously his efforts are financially-driven and he is obligated to the MLM industry execs that pay him (whatever paltry amount of blood money that may be).

    Dooly openly calls Dallin Larsen his friend and he has a history of serving as a Monavie apologist. So why would anyone expect him to change course and suddenly generate any report of consequence about Orrin and TEAM? Is he going to reveal anything that would harm his friend’s company? If he does, then he’s betraying his friend, and if he doesn’t, then he’s covering up the truth. Troy would only say something substantially negative about Orrin/TEAM if that’s what Larsen wanted him to do.

    This is all pretty basic. If one wants to be taken seriously as an impartial source of information, then one shouldn’t’ take money from MLM industry execs in exchange for reputation management services, write apologist/denialist fluff pieces about MLM companies, or publicly brag about the existence of a friendship with a notorious MLM CEO.

    I can see why you’d be curious about my identity. Personally, I don’t care about such details because I can recognize the truth of someone’s words independently of the name they use to sign their posts. I trust that all can do the same with my posts.

  321. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 10:05 am

    I do appreciate Troy’s efforts but obviously don’t agree with the ‘industry’ as a viable business opprotunity and their blantant intentional oversites, lies, and cover ups.. but If the radio interview is an indication or has any bearing on the ‘investigation,’ which I believe it will; due to the content and ‘interview’…the results are predicatable. The 3 hour interview with Orrin that was mentioned…and what followed in the radio interview made me chuckle…there are some concerns though…Orrin hasn’t changed a bit and it is clear his manipulation tatics are working.

    I suspect it will turn out something like this..well maybe not all of;

    Yes.. Orrin has made ‘mistakes’.. but who hasn’t.. just like any other ‘master (manipulators) distributor’ who has all the real tatics on how to get to be a ‘master’.. but he has changed.. he is no longer trying to ‘duplicate’ his cult personality (because he is found out).. therefore he is even more remarkable and has overcome his Goliaths and is bigger and better ‘leader’ than ever.. to be heard now because of it… he is absolved from any and all responsiblity for the unethical, immoral, and illegal things..besides we aren’t even sure that stuff is true, because he said it wasn’t…we have allowed (teaching moments) to do those things until he is caught… he has changed all that now, besides that is in his past only losers look learn how to become better manipulators to cover it up and make themselves look better because of it. Orrin has earned his ‘success.’ Just speak to him and look at those results..

    LIEf which was the Team of Destiny and then The Team.. in hide the truth.. that no one will even admit when speaking of Orrin and where his unprecedented ‘success’ comes from… then onto MV…which is the training system, he stole from Amway with a slight manipulation of the pay plan. But Orrin is so brilliant and his lief training pay plan.. ‘has never been done before’ and Could be..we just don’t know yet..sounds good though..what if it is ‘the answers’ to all of life and the unsustainable MLM’s … at least til they can get their special lief training and how to make an MLM appear viable… that’s after they have sucked the lief out of those new suckers…then they will undoubtly return to their original… ‘Primary’ business and ‘sell’ their miraculous products at those unbeatable, competetive prices with their remarkable unprecedented ‘pay-plan’.. and then all those ‘untrained’ are now ‘trained’ by ‘the best of the best guru’s’ in the industry and will be proffessional ‘leaders’ that they can only get from lief…Genius…it will only be a temporary loss of their real ‘Primary’ business focus..ha.. and who’s measuring the real success anyway (except Brent, Mike,and Vogel’s while others choose to ignore)… and don’t worry about those old ‘followers’…they are just discruntle whinning haters, who couldn’t make it work anyway with their multiple thousands…they have a misconstrued perspective aren’t nearly as manipulative and barely hit the level 2 or 3 leadership mark… you wouldn’t believe what they are saying.. because they don’t even try to manipulate or ‘pretend’ to be diplomatic like us ‘real’ leaders. The industry has changed..they are quitters and that’s why they don’t have ‘our success’..

    The industry believes what Orrin says about himself..WoW.. because he can really pack the house (only because that is what every big leader with numbers does (most who left his miraculous training did that they are still repeating the benefits from)..they became the BEST at selling tickets, it is the main’s a secret apparently. LOL

    I am not sure of his ‘new/very old’ program but …Orrin is a hero just listen to him….now lets get back to business as usual and to the best industry for American’s on the planet. We.. The industry… need an Orrin…he is A guru..just ask him.

    Time will tell.

  322. September 27, 2011 10:14 am


    I understand your point on the surface. Sadly, most folks can be bought, and do not represent the distributors. With a little due diligence most can find I do set on the Board of the ANMP, and we have represented distributors against MonaVie, XanGo and other top 100 companies, along with smaller ones and won on behalf of the rank and file.

    Most folks like Vogel sadly represent their ignorance to the direct selling industry around one type of compensation plan, instead of the industry itself. Although this is understandable when someone sees everything as negative, I do respect everyones opinion, even if I disagree.

    The ideology, that one should not make money out of the industry they love and admire is ludicrous. If we the people do not unite to make it better than who is? Vogel? I think not.

    Again, I see your reasoning, and it does make sense that someone who does not know me personally, would feel this way.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


    p.s. It also would make sense if people do not know the rules of the FTC 🙂

  323. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 11:40 am

    “Most folks like Vogel sadly represent their ignorance to the direct selling industry around one type of compensation plan, instead of the industry itself.”

    Trust Troy try to use unsubstantiated ad hominem BS as a substitute for a legitimate counterargument. Perhaps the clown would care to elaborate how I have shown ignorance of the direct selling industry. What’s that Troy…silence? I thought so.

  324. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 11:45 am

    “Sadly, most folks can be bought, and do not represent the distributors.”

    Yes, sad indeed. And here are the prices you advertise that you can be bought for (in Troy’s wildest dreams anyway; his services can probably be bought for a lot less…a half eaten sandwich perhaps)

    Social Marketing Training/Distribution
    Social Marketing Distribution $500 (+ media fees)
    Social Marketing Training (by phone) $1,000 – $2,000
    Media Marketing Training (in person) $2,500 – $4,000 (+ Travel)
    Reputation Fact Sheets (per sheet) $125 – $500
    Full Investigative Report $1,000 – $1,250
    Custom Video Reviews $250 – $1,250
    Article Writing $125 – $500
    Article Writing w/ Video $250 – $500

  325. September 27, 2011 12:01 pm


    My point exactly! Figure it out squirt!

  326. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 12:04 pm

    BTW Troy, did you secure rights from 20th Century Fox to use that excerpt from The Replacements in your latest video?

    I’m guessing no; and if you didn’t, then you’re stealing.

  327. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 12:15 pm

    BTW, I just sent an e-mail to 20th Century Fox’s antipiracy division informing them of the fact that you appear to be using their property without express authorization. Good luck with that.

  328. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 12:16 pm

    Troy: I am personally reserving coming to any conclusions until you and I talk personally. As far as vogel representing ignorance around one comp plan, I can tell you just by reading his posts that he will have a little problem if any interpreting any compensation plan out there. As a matter fact I don’t believe his arguments Are centered around a particular comp plan. I don’t have a problem with a particular comp plan. I have a problem with all of them that are top heavy. But You and I have already been through this.

    As for being negative, It is hard to see this industry in any other light Once you have come to the conclusion that, based on a preponderance of the evidence, the industry is inherently corrupt. I agree with you that there are some good things about this industry But those good things typically center around the people. And when I say people I mean the average person not the ones who are perpetuating the lies.

  329. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 12:24 pm

    Troy: also, since you brought up the ANMP And the people that you have represented I wonder if you have ever said anything remotely negative or critical about monavie or dallin larson

  330. September 27, 2011 12:26 pm


    Sad indeed, because you do you best to make it what you want it to be. Sound bites to support your hate for an industry… Why did you not copy everything?

    “A comprehensive information reputation strategy isn’t something most companies, teams or independent consultants think about until they are hit with it through the Internet. In fact organization and individuals don’t have an action plan in place to battle against such a situation.”

    Troy Dooly has helped companies, independent teams and the individual direct sellers put their story out in an authentic and transparent manner. Telling your story is critical in the nano-second society we now live. These efforts have resulted in tens of thousands mentions, stories and videos for our clients and their teams and caused them to see the benefits of working closely with Troy Dooly aka Beachside CEO.

    Troy is approached daily by start-up and established companies, teams and consultants seeking help with various brand and reputation projects – for items as simple as reviewing a press release to brainstorming on gaining or regaining control of their online reputation. While Troy will not take on every situation he is willing to discuss your needs and guide you in finding a solution, no matter what the situation may be.

    Troy is pleased to offer the following menu of a la carte services.

    Please feel free to complete the contact form below to discuss your specific needs.”

    And you question my ethics. ROFLOL…

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  331. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 12:27 pm

    Dooly: “Sadly, most folks can be bought, and do not represent the distributors.”

    Vogel: “Yes, sad indeed. And here are the prices you advertise that you can be bought for…”

    Dooly: “@Vogel, My point exactly! Figure it out squirt!”

    What was your point exactly? It seems to be the following admission: “yes, it’s sad that I can be bought and do not represent the distributors.”

  332. September 27, 2011 12:27 pm


    By the training and find out 🙂

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  333. September 27, 2011 12:29 pm



    Buy the training and find out! 🙂

  334. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 12:34 pm

    Dooly: “Sad indeed, because you do you best to make it what you want it to be. Sound bites to support your hate for an industry… Why did you not copy everything?”

    Sound bites??? Now you’re tanking fast Dooly. It’s a verbatim quote from your own idiotic website. Why didn’t I copy everything? To be economical in the amount of text people have to read through. I figured that my providing the link to the full text would be sufficient. The additional information on your site, which you posted just now, doesn’t add much except to elaborate on the extent to which you’re willing to whore yourself out to the MLM industry. Not sure why you think that info helps your case. It doesn’t; it just proves my point.

  335. September 27, 2011 12:47 pm


    It is always fun to banter back and forth with Vogel and other critics of direct sales. However, there is an underlaying issue which should be thought about.

    It is easy to see that most of you have had your close personal relationship with Orrin and others at TEAM ripped apart. Some of these relationships lasted years and includes most if not all of your family members.

    You have a right to be hurt, angry, and devastated at what has taken place. Although, I do not understand why you have not taken legal action, but do respect our decision.

    I would like to ask a few serious questions so I can better understand a couple of issues.

    1. What is the end game you hope to accomplish where Orrin is concerned?

    2. Does anyone really care what I might write pro or con towards Orrin/TEAM/LIFE/

    3. If arraigned would any of you be willing to get together in person or on the phone with Orrin to talk to him about your feelings?

    4. Does anyone here believe that the following sentence could solve the way you feel… “Treat others the way you want to be treated?”

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  336. September 27, 2011 12:49 pm


    🙂 That is not an issue at all 🙂

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  337. September 27, 2011 12:54 pm


    Understand where you are coming from.

    Name an industry that isn’t corrupt? This is why we can either raise the standards of excellence from the inside or have the regulators do it for us, as they did in the franchise industry.

  338. September 27, 2011 12:57 pm


    Negative – no, critical – yes. As I wrote we went to both MonaVie and XanGo on behalf of specific distributors and in both cases the companies worked to fix the issues. In MonaVie’s case it was a specific situation, in the XanGo issue it was a change in the P&Ps which harmed the distributors.

  339. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 1:00 pm

    Dooly: “@Vogel…Buy the training and find out!”

    Does this really strike you as opportune time for a sales pitch? Do I seem remotely interested in buying your garbage? Once a whore, always a whore.

  340. September 27, 2011 1:00 pm


    It’s been fun, a breath of relaxation. However, there is nothing to prove. I am who I am, you are who you are. I don;t know you so, I do not make any personal attacks on your ethics.

    If you or anyone feels I do not walk my talk, then by all means that is your prerogative.

    Again, this is not about me!

  341. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 1:12 pm

    Dooly: “Name an industry that isn’t corrupt?”

    Translation: “Let’s deflect attention away from MLM and talk about something else — anything else — other than the rampant corruption and negative consumer perceptions of MLM.”

    Dooly: “However, there is nothing to prove. I am who I am”

    Translation: “Nolo contedre. Guilty as charged (i.e., MLMs Tokyo Rose)”

    Dooly: “If you or anyone feels I do not walk my talk, then by all means that is your prerogative.”

    Yeah you sure do “walk the talk”, I guess (whatever that’s supposed to mean). Let’s have a look at the “training” you provide to MLM distributors.

    Lesson 1: Ripoff 20th Century Fox by pirating their intellectual property and then use the pirated material for self promotion.

    You sure do walk the talk Troy. You demonstrate that deception and thievery are taught as fundamental principles in MLM101.

  342. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 1:26 pm

    1. “What is the end game you hope to accomplish where Orrin is concerned?”

    Financial restitution to the victims would be nice start. A little contrition on O’s part is warranted. A court ruling that O can wear around his neck like an albatross would be fitting. Jail time would be a bonus.

    2. “Does anyone really care what I might write pro or con towards Orrin/TEAM/LIFE/”

    Not particularly. Might have a bit of entertainment value though and it would be interesting to see how far you’re willing to insert your tongue up the derrieres of your puppet masters.

    3. “If arraigned would any of you be willing to get together in person or on the phone with Orrin to talk to him about your feelings?”

    That seems like a pretty stupid question. I’m sure lots of people would love to give O a piece of their mind. If O were arraigned (i.e., formally read a criminal complaint) why would a phone conversation with O and his victims subsequently take place? That would be very odd indeed. If O gets formally charged, there would probably be several distributors willing to testify against him in court. Although, your effort to try and root them out here seems suspect to say the least.

    4. “Does anyone here believe that the following sentence could solve the way you feel… “Treat others the way you want to be treated?”

    Another totally asinine question. Doesn’t even merit a serious response.

  343. September 27, 2011 1:33 pm


    🙂 truly not sure why you thought I would sell you anything. You brought it up after visiting my site. No solicitation on my part, just responding to your original question.

    Vogel, anyone from the outside would assume you knew me and I have done something against you or your family somewhere along the way.

    You seem to love making enemies instead of friends. Especially friends who may not agree with all our points of view, why is this?

    Not once have I ever attacked you personally or called you any slanderous names. Why do you feel the need to do so towards me?

    Is this how you treat all strangers you have never met, or who do not agree with your personal opinions?

    Not sure if anyone else cares, but I am intrigued as to why all the hate poured out on me?

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  344. No Team For Me permalink
    September 27, 2011 2:41 pm

    Unfortunately, after knowing him as close as many of us do and seeing him for years so up close and personal, many of us believe that nothing Orrin says will be truthful, honest or followed up on. Just a PR opportunity to make more false claims and then go about business as usual.

    Think of Bill Clinton. He was great at convincing people that everyone else was wrong about him while at the same time conducting himself very differently behind closed doors.

    Not blaming you, Troy. When we only knew Orrin on the surface, we thought like you did. But after seeing him behind the scenes for so long – no, a meeting with Orrin means nothing. You cannot trust a dishonest man to keep his word.

    As far as your unltimate goal request – I think we would like to see Orrin & Crew stopped before they continue to fleece, lie and steal from thousands of others and wish to see them held accountable for their actions.

    Personally, I think this needs to be on a very public forum (ie. Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc) so the truth comes out.

  345. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 3:00 pm

    No Team: please forgive me if I overstate the obvious…….that will never happen if someone with a real name is not willing to come forward. Unless of course you can convince one of these shows to do their own investigation (which would take forever for them to do)

  346. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 3:14 pm

    Troy: I vote for the regulators……and we both know what that will mean. This industry is incapable of policing itself.

    Can you be specific on your criticism of MV or Dallin? I don’t believe I have seen it anywhere and I would love to hear any criticism you have leveled at MV.

    Dooly: “Name an industry that isn’t corrupt?”

    Vogel is correct here Troy. This is the typical red herring arguement which seems to be your default. Two wrongs don’t make a right AND the end does not justify the means…..

  347. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 4:18 pm

    Troy: before this starts to look like I’m ganging up on you I want say that is not my intent. I am only making a couple of points.

  348. No Team For Me permalink
    September 27, 2011 4:41 pm

    Mike – I think a lot of us would be willing to give our real names for either a class-action suit, an attorney-general investigation or a major national news story. But we will not stick our head out on our own to be steam-rolled by the bankroll and un-ethics of Orrin & Co to do to us what they claimed Amway/Quixtar was doing to them.

  349. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 4:50 pm

    Have you seen government fix anything with regulations? NO! Regulations tend to slow business down and many times (not always) create more problems for the industry they are regulating. If there was ever an industry that needed government to come in and pump the brakes with a little old fashioned regulation…..MLM is it. THIS is what they fear most.

    Why do you think the DSA is in DC? It is the lobbying arm of the industry and they spend MILLIONS greasing the politicians. (and if one of you are stupid enough to comment that this is the way business is done in the U.S therefore why shouldn’t the DSA/MLM industry not be afforded the same right) let me just remind you that just because my neighbor is a rapist and gets away with it doesn’t mean I should start raping people..

    Now before I get an economics lesson from any of you on the need for more/less regulation on any particular industry I want you to know…I get it. I’m just keeping it simple. I’m not talking about what is good for the economy I’m just talking about the MLM industry and what would be the end result if the regulators stepped in.

  350. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 5:06 pm

    I know NO Team. I get it, believe me. Right does not always prevail in our so called “justice system”

  351. September 27, 2011 5:15 pm


    What red herring? If you and Vogel want to take the comment and just use the question and not the answer then I guess you can get what you want out of it.

    Dooly: “Name an industry that isn’t corrupt? This is why we can either raise the standards of excellence from the inside or have the regulators do it for us, as they did in the franchise industry.”

    Mike we are having this discussion in someone else’s house, and they have asked us not to do it. I’ll gladly do it publicly on my blog or anywhere else that does not violate Amthrax’s request.

    I’m done, except to see the answers from my question specific to Orrin.

    I’ll call you offline when I get back in town and settled down.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  352. September 27, 2011 5:21 pm


    Mike: “Why do you think the DSA is in DC? It is the lobbying arm of the industry and they spend MILLIONS greasing the politicians. (and if one of you are stupid enough to comment that this is the way business is done in the U.S therefore why shouldn’t the DSA/MLM industry not be afforded the same right) let me just remind you that just because my neighbor is a rapist and gets away with it doesn’t mean I should start raping people..”

    I think you need to do some studying using the DSA as the scapegoat.

    1. MonaVie was not approved for the DSA because of issues in their requiting and rading of companies.

    2. TEAM?LIFE nor any of its leadership are members or members who have applied.

    3. There are less then 250 members of the DSA, and over 2000 companies who use some form of mlm/network marketing compensation plan.

    It seems that if more companies & Ddistributors would join the DSA MLMIA and the ANMP, then we would not see these issues, and when we did, we could put a stop to them.

  353. rickdg permalink
    September 27, 2011 5:32 pm

    very entertaining!

  354. rickdg permalink
    September 27, 2011 5:50 pm

    I loved how he had to do “damage control” to his own rep! One word HYPOCRITE!

  355. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 6:14 pm

    I am 100% in agreement with Mike: “Troy: I vote for the regulators……and we both know what that will mean. This industry is incapable of policing itself. ” They WON’T police themselves…it is very clear it is all about getting away with anything and everything they can to keep the funnel ($$)..flowing in.


    3. If arraigned would any of you be willing to get together in person or on the phone with Orrin to talk to him about your feelings?

    4. Does anyone here believe that the following sentence could solve the way you feel… “Treat others the way you want to be treated?”


    I believe you answered your own questions in a previous post, you said:

    “Litigation should always be the last resort in any issue. Sadly, as I read through all the blogs, it is easy to tell, mediation is out of the question.”

    Those 2 questions… are ridiculous absurd and are a complete insult to all of us. If your own answer didn’t answer your questions, please read the rest of the site, which I thought you had already by your other statements and should answer those questions for you.

  356. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 6:20 pm


    Would you share who you are referring to in your comment…who done ‘damage control’?

  357. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 27, 2011 6:39 pm

    Very interesting historical background on the Deceptive Selling Alliance if anyone cares to read it.

  358. September 27, 2011 6:54 pm


    I guess my only unanswered question is why hasn’t a class action suit be launched? I gave Amthrax three attorneys two of which are known for winning their class action lawsuits. And one who is known for fighting and winning for distributors.

    I will monitor the thread for a few more days, to see if there are any others who wish to respond to my four questions.

    I do want to thank the handful of folks who responded offline and helped me to better understand the pain you all have gone through.

    No matter what I write it will not help heal the pain, and for that I am truly sorry.

    As for wanting to take this public, here are some reporters who might be interested.

    And since Oprah Winfrey has already sued MonaVie once, she and Dr. Oz might also be an outlet.

    I do want to thank everyone who took the time to respond through this thread.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  359. rickdg permalink
    September 27, 2011 7:36 pm

    As Troy said
    “Troy is approached daily by start-up and established companies, teams and consultants seeking help with various brand and reputation projects – for items as simple as reviewing a press release to brainstorming on gaining or regaining control of their online reputation”

    I took the ‘regaining control of their online reputation’ as damage control. He is a strategist – and there is something up! I think soon we will see more fear tactics. Maybe they want to select a few to use as examples in court – or maybe they want to subtly suggest it so everyone remains scared, afraid to get sued. And Troy seems to be the instigator.
    Here is an interesting story on FUD – for some reason the guys on the other side seem to be baiting people to give there real name and it is obvious they are in cahoots.

    I loved vogel getting to him and then he backed off. But, the funniest part of the thread was when Dwayne S. started by saying we aren’t playing fair because we are not using are real names. Then Speak spoke up and mentioned that there are a lot of Dwayne S.’s out there – and that the story itself is about his hero being anonymous on other blogs. Great movie material.
    I think this is subtle threat – that may be the strategy they came up with.

    Oh, and by the way Dwayne – the $hit will be hitting the fan, soon!

  360. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:05 pm


    I see your point…lol…they will definitely NEED Troy’s services if they decide to sue…that would be suicide for them,…too many big leaders ha… win or loose…it would go PUBLIC in a BIG way..I agree Great Movie Material…and many book signings all over…then we could ‘cut a deal’ to our entire downline left in the lief team that our books would hit #1 best seller we could live on those laurels for years to come… and we could call ourselves guru’s! 🙂

  361. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:09 pm


    Did or has Orrin ever paid you for any of your services or ‘reputation management at any time?’

  362. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:10 pm

    Thanks Brent for the link. 🙂

  363. Mike Collins permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:30 pm

    @ Rickdg: Mike Collins here. Pleased to meet you. I don’t know who you are referring to as guys from the other side baiting these folks to use their reals names but just in case.

    I am a very vocal critic of the industry for real. Go on Troys site at mlm helpdesk and search my name. You can also search visalus and read the 3 stories about the BS Nick Sarnicola pulled with Rob Dean Read my comments. You are also welcome to go to my FB wall (it’s public) if you scroll down enough you will find plenty of comments.

    also meet Brent hansen: he is also very critical of 99% of MLM’s and their comp plans. You can read plenty of his comments as well.

    Dwayne Schiller is a friend of mine on FB. I invited him here to take a look. We met through an MLM guru named Tony Rush. We have since had some great conversations. The reason for his brevity is probably due to the fact that he is a corporate fraud invetigator for Apple. He doesn’t mince words and is probably one of the most thoughtful and intelligent people I’ve met. His calling this blog a “circle jerk” is because it isn’t doing a whole lot of good in reality (aside from giving people a place to vent, maybe educating a few people, and perhaps pissing Orrin off…I can only hope.

    And finally, Troy isn’t instigating anything. He was pointed to this site by a Team member. He knows I’m a critic so he asked me to have a look and see if I thought there was any truth to what everyone is saying. I told him I believe what these folks are saying. I don’t know Troy real well. I want to believe he wants to help the industry. I have called Troy out on the carpet about his stance more than a few times. Ask him.

    As I said in my post above I am reserving coming to any conclusions at this point. I need to have a discussion with him first. Until then I will give him the benefit of the doubt. EVEN if a lot of his positions on MLM piss me off. Many times they leave me scratching my head. Now before you crucify me for fraternizing with the enemy Vogel, please extend me a little grace. You have made your mind up about Troy and I’m totally cool with that. I felt the exact same way you do when i first started reading his stuff. Because of our continued correspondence I decided i would extend him some grace and give him the benefit of the doubt.

    But it doesn’t mean i will take a soft line on him if he does or says something that I think is BS. But if he does it doesn’t mean i can’t at least attempt to remain polite. (doesn’t mean I’ll be successful) This isn’t an idictment of you either Vogel. I am very obnoxious a lot of the time and tend to not mince words either.

  364. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:35 pm

    rickdg, are you insinuating that perhaps Michael, Dwayne or myself are asking for names because we could be in “cahoots” with Troy. Troy, if I am in cahoots with you, could you please send me a check for “helping you bait” the people on this thread. Maybe our big “MLM puppet masters” will pass a buck to little ol Brent. That is laughable at best. I asked for names at the beginning because I merely prefer to know the people I am standing with. But, when I was told that identities would not be revealed, I haven’t asked since.

    I understand that this thread is about Orrin’s supposed anonymous blogging, and how his purpoted anonymous blogging is deceptive and misleading, kind of funny how many are doing the exact thing here that the whole thread was about. I could care less whether names are revealed or not, but the pot shouldn’t be calling the kettle black here. And if you are willing to discuss all of this Rick, please email me your phone number @, and I will be glad to call you and discuss the finer points of MLM. I put up my name, my email, and my phone number to hopefully show the lot of you how serious I am about what I say, and what I believe, if that is not good enough for you, then I probably shouldn’t bother casting my pearls before the swine.

    Although I agree with Vogel, Speak, Michael, and everyone else on this thread, I choose to treat everyone with respect because my name is here on my posts, I am a Christian, and I believe in taking the higher road. Troy may stand for the very industry I despise, but he is a husband, father, and ex-marine, who deserves to be treated like a human being. I highly doubt that if this wasn’t anonymous blogging then words would not come so liberally. It would be easy for me to haul off and talk a bunch of trash about Troy but why? I have never met the man, I don’t know what is really in his heart. I have plenty of unresolved issues in my own life without pointing a damning finger at someone else. When all is said and done, I hope to add to the discussion, but not lower my personal standards to do so. My purpose and belief has been clear right from the get go.

    I know that all of us (yes me included) were screwed by Team, and there is nothing more that I would love than to see all of this garbage exposed, but the bottom line is this, has Orrin broken the law? If so which laws as he broken, and does anyone here have evidence? He said she said doesn’t work in a court of law. As much as I hate to say it, he either broke the law, or he didn’t. Some of you either have hard evidence or you don’t.

    So Rick, if you were not implicating me as a Dooly strategist, then I must apologize for coming back with this post, but if you are, you are sorely mistaken.

  365. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 9:02 pm

    Dooly: “Vogel, anyone from the outside would assume you knew me and I have done something against you or your family somewhere along the way.”

    Surely you must know by now that I have a special cloak that makes me immune to snake charmers who try to hypnotize me with BS culled from Chapter 1 of the MLM Apologist’s Handbook, which states that you can get away with absolutely anything (e.g., lying, cheating, stealing) as long as you: (a) redirect criticism by portraying your critics as spiteful negative people with a chip on their shoulder; (b) keep a smile plastered on your face no matter what anyone around you says; and (c) always close a conversation by saying “God Bless” or something equally pandering and hypocritical.

    You’re crafting yet another strawman, this time in an attempt to portray yourself as a victim/martyr, and using it to deflect attention away from the facts (e.g., Monavie and Orrin’s malfeasance, your misleading apologist BS on behalf of Monavie, video piracy, etc.). What’s most offensive about your pathetic “victim” posturing is that it makes light of the REAL victims (e.g., the ones who have been pouring their guts out here).

    As to what people assume when they read my posts, I can only guess that it bears little resemblance to what you conjured up. I can only hope that they recognize me as a well-intentioned and logical straight-shooter with an aptitude for research and healthy contempt for self-serving liars who hurt other people.

    Dooly: “You seem to love making enemies instead of friends. Especially friends who may not agree with all our points of view, why is this?”

    Still more deflection Troy? Whatever. I’m pretty selective about the company I keep, and I don’t go on the internet to make friends. I say what I say because I think it’s important that the truth punches through the mountain of BS that people like you make a career out of generating. The distributors have been royally screwed and I’m not going to sit idly by while their voice is getting buried under noise generated by a bunch of greedy self-serving con men and their Tokyo Rose. If I make a few friends along the way, and I think I have here, well that’s just icing on the cake. If someone here thinks of me as an enemy, it’s probably because they have something to lose as a result of people knowing the truth. So be it.

    Dooly: “Not once have I ever attacked you personally or called you any slanderous names. Why do you feel the need to do so towards me? Is this how you treat all strangers you have never met, or who do not agree with your personal opinions? Not sure if anyone else cares, but I am intrigued as to why all the hate poured out on me?”

    Refer to my opening comment about snake charmers, MLM101, deflection, and the ignominy of portraying yourself as the victim. You’re being paid by MLMs like Monavie to stand for them in the ring, so stop crying when you get slugged. If it’s not worth it, ask for a raise or quit and try to get a new job.

  366. rickdg permalink
    September 27, 2011 9:09 pm

    Dwayne wasn’t brief – he has many posts where he is asking people to be like him, and use their real name. And if we are so hurt then we need to begin a class action suite. It really seems that you and your friends that you invited have tried to commandeer this thread. Sometimes you are talking to each other about nonsense – of course all along thinking and hoping we are too stupid to see we’re played like succas. What’s up with when someone like Vogel brings up good points – the reply is usually irrelevant. Just like yours – the more you guys talk it becomes apparent some sort of strategy is going on – I’m just saying.
    Troy was no match for Vogel – when you KNOW that you have been involved with a hustle and the jerk that hustled you is still out there hustling others a certain amount of vengeance is warranted. Troy was smart to back down.

    If Dwayne works for corporate fraud, as an investigator for Apple, then why did he say this?
    “When the whistleblowers/messiahs decide to unmask themselves, a real investigation can start to take place. From reading all of the posts here, I feel as if there is enough information to go forward with an investigation. Is anyone willing? Does anyone know how to begin opening a complaint with the FTC or the state’s Attorney General with jurisdiction. This is really nothing more than a debate. Who is going to give this fact finding mission its due? Maybe the best way to ask this ask for statements from those have been screwed the hardest? Or is this simply a collection of cathartic moments of those whose consciences have gotten the better of them.”

    And lets not forget this gem.
    Now, how many others will reveal themselves I wonder.
    For what it’s worth, I did read the entire blog and it’s all still a big circle jerk.
    Godspeed, jerkers. – Dwyane S.

    It seems like all your friends are real thoughtful and intelligent. Cool! WOW! Unreal! BS!
    P.S. Cahoots – just like I thought, hmmm.

  367. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 9:26 pm

    Just to clear the air…I wasn’t insinuating that Mike, Brent or Dwayne was in cahoots, if it came off that way I do apologize..I do know better But Fud is a different story. I do appreciate Troy but he has made it abundantly clear on his stance on the MLM industry and is a paid online reputation management. It is difficult to believe anything will result even from the investigation and I have heard the radio and read and watched some of his videos.

    I still stand on my belief that the questions he asked are insulting… due to the information shared on this site about Orrin and his ‘conflict resolution’…. which I have personally witnessed..there is is his way or the highway but apparently people don’t realize this to be true, because they only know of Orrin the way he has made them to believe. You are all right it maybe just a waste of time for us to even be here. I am pretty sure the truth has been told and is crystal clear.

    I do Agree with Vogel on the anonymity and know that does not change the truth. I also appreciate Vogels intelligence and quite frankly he makes me laugh. It is obvious no one knows Orrin as we do..and don’t know how this many people could share the same experiences they have had with the real Orrin. There is nothing else left to say.

    As far as proof we all have something…but whether it would be sufficient in the court system is about as risky as the MLM industry because we all know how lawyers opperate and how Orrin and others lie, even under oath.

    I also don’t believe Troy’s investigation will be anymore effective than what you all believe about the information on here.

  368. Vogel permalink
    September 27, 2011 10:19 pm

    Dooly said: “@Mike I think you need to do some studying using the DSA as the scapegoat. MonaVie was not approved for the DSA because of issues in their requiting and rading of companies.”

    You mean because Monavie pissed off Amway by raiding their distributors, and Amway is among the biggest companies on the DSA client roster? Sadly, it didn’t have anything to do with the fact that Monavie is a snakeoil company built on a foundation of lies. In fact, the DSA seems to have no reservations about providing membership to MLM companies – LifeVantage for example – that lie and illegally market snakeoil.

    Dooly said: “It seems that if more companies & Ddistributors would join the DSA MLMIA and the ANMP, then we would not see these issues, and when we did, we could put a stop to them.”

    Are you kidding? Let the industry continue to pretend to police itself with toothless shell organizations like the DSA and ANMP, because that strategy has been effective in preventing abuses up until now? That’s insulting. BTW, have you even seen the ANMPs website? Do the words quintessential snakeoil voodoo crap mean anything to you?

    So these are the though remedies you propose to rehabilitate the corrupted MLM system? ROFL. My sense of decorum and the presence of many devout Christians preclude me from calling you an appropriate name (but it rhymes with trucking blidiot).

  369. rickdg permalink
    September 27, 2011 11:40 pm

    I never mentioned your name. But why did you have to ask me to email you? You know how that looks? Why, to discuss the finer points of MLM? Strange, no thanks! Besides, everyone knows it is where Most Lose Money. See I already knew, so we can save some bandwidth and not email each other. Nevertheless, this is the best show going and it’s free. We need another countdown a more realistic one – one that shows the amount of time left before this whole charade is reveled, and justice is served.

    “His calling this blog a “circle jerk” is because it isn’t doing a whole lot of good in reality (aside from giving people a place to vent, maybe educating a few people, and perhaps pissing Orrin off…I can only hope.”
    This blog is not those things! This blog is a valiant effort to show unsuspecting prospects the truth! A circle jerk is a known term used by 16 year olds. By saying that this blog is not doing a whole lot of good in reality proves you cannot relate to the people that got hustled. These guys have one goal and that is to help steer the people coming to this site to the truth. This whole we are on FB, we are not afraid to show who we are – I am beginning to think it looks a lot like the mob. A bunch a bullies come over to “the other side” to stir the $hit, and create some sort chaotic, double-talk nonsense about the merits of MLM. Now I am really scared.

    And lets not forget this gem –
    Now, how many others will reveal themselves I wonder.
    For what it’s worth, I did read the entire blog and it’s all still a big circle jerk.
    Godspeed, jerkers. – Dwyane S.

    The ENTIRE Blog – BS!

  370. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 28, 2011 3:12 am

    @rickdg, my request for you to email me and a subsequent phone call was nothing more than a stab at proving to you that your “conspiracy” theory is nothing but garbage. And me saying “discuss the finer points of MLM” was simply a polite way of saying I want to call you out on your “cahoots” bullshit. I am willing to talk to anyone on this thread, and share my thoughts and ideas about all of this. And to be honest with you Rick, I don’t care “how this looks”. If your real intent and goal is to “help steer the people coming to this site to the truth” then bless you for your efforts, I am sure you have helped many people make an educated decision about joining team, monavie, or any other mlm. Keep up the great work.

    I guess I was wrong in assuming that you all would like to pursue a longer term and more substantial resolution. If you are merely pursuing the idea of providing people with another source of information, then I believe that you are succeeding.

  371. aurora permalink
    September 28, 2011 4:20 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  372. Mike Collins permalink
    September 28, 2011 5:48 am

    Your fight isn’t with me Rick. And i’m not here to stroke anyone. Do your homework

  373. September 28, 2011 6:48 am

    @Speak Your Truth,

    Orrin Woodward, nor person or other entity connected or representing him has ever paid me any money. However, he has sent me copies of his books.

    MonaVie, nor or other entity has paid me any money. However, back in 2008, Dallin did have the company send me some product for my review.


    🙂 If Vogel’s conspiracy theory is remotely correct, then the purported reputation management strategy created for Orrin/TEAM/LIFE and Monavie worked.

    Now they have a highly ranked SEO Blog proving all the points so clearly shared with this community.

    Brent, Mike and Dwayne, I’ll send our check as soon as I get paid! 😉

    Now all Orrin has to do is tell folks “Do a search and you will find one small, but vocal, negative group of people who couldn’t cut it, but refuse to sue me, crying over spilled milk behind fake names yelling like little children who had their toys stolen.”

    “As a matter of fact my Tokyo Rose aka Sock Puppet drove them right into our trap, to prove they don’t have a leg to stand on legally, morally or ethically. I even had my Sock Puppet and his team ask very simple questions and you can see their responses.

    Funny how reputation strategies work. If you take the time to due the diligence in advance then you quickly know exactly what buttons to push, and who will respond. Now let us pray!”

    Most in this community deserve some form of closure. But until you are willing to gather the right legal counsel, and not listen to others you will never get that closure.

    Maybe an investigative report by one of the reporters I listed above will help, but it hasn’t yet.

    Hmmm… I wonder if Orrin and his team might be here right now, acting as friends to you all, just to keep the fear high, and people from moving forward in some form of class action suit?

    @Amthrax, thank you for the leniency you have shown and for connecting with me personally to give me a better understanding of those who have found refuge in your community.

    I have seen you do provide a place where former TEAM members can come together and work on some form of a solution. Without knowing all the facts from either side, but defiantly having a better understanding of what has taken place, I can now write an article which will at the very least raise the concerns present to me both publicly and privately.

    Although, I am sure it will not be enough for some and will bring out the critics from both sides of this situation. (Just part of the purported reputation strategy to keep the buzz at the top of the search engines.)

    @Those who contacted me privately. Thank you for your trust in sharing your personal stories and giving me the personal insight I could not get here.

    Living An Epic Adventure,


  374. humiliated permalink
    September 28, 2011 7:00 am

    I have always thought of Vogel as a really smart “Simon Cowell” of these sites.You know you are ALWAYS going to get honesty and he knows his shit. Period. He often says what I am thinking but am not quite sure how to articulate. He thoroughly researches and analyzes the issues and comes up with the correct conclusion every single time, without fail. This is what I find to be the major failing of Mr. Dooley. He gets in front of his camera and doesn’t bother to actually look into the claims being made by the company, are they true? Will they pass the sniff test? Of course we know WHY he doesn’t dig any deeper but it does leave him very vulnerable when other people (aka Vogel, Brent & Mike) take the time to actually do the research.

    I personally don’t think that because someone is a father, husband or Christian proves that he is a good man, (many a criminal fall into this category) but his actions reveal who a person really is. I have a really hard time reconciling someone knowing what they know about the industry, and being labeled a good person in spite of continuing to defend it. We have always given distributors a lot of latitude when they defend the industry because most of them are truly ignorant about the nuts and bolts of the industry, but I just can’t give Troy that latitude.

    I guess we will see what Troy is made of when we see this article. Prove us all wrong Troy.

    I also would like and answer to SYT’s question “Did or has Orrin ever paid you for any of your services or ‘reputation management at any time?’”. I would like to broaden that to has Orrin or any representative of Team or Monavie Corporate paid you for any of your services or “reputation management” management at any time.


  375. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 28, 2011 7:56 am

    Humiliated this is Troy’s answer to my questions;

    “Orrin Woodward, nor person or other entity connected or representing him has ever paid me any money. However, he has sent me copies of his books.”

    “MonaVie, nor or other entity has paid me any money. However, back in 2008, Dallin did have the company send me some product for my review.”

  376. Vogel permalink
    September 28, 2011 8:47 am

    I have a mixed reaction to Troy’s denial. On the one hand, I don’t believe him when he implies that he hasn’t received any form of compensation from Monavie/TEAM/Orrin or affiliated distributors. But on the other hand, I also can’t believe that any company exec in his right mind would pay someone like Dooly for damage control, when the reality is that Dooly needs his own damage control expert. Seriously, if you were an exec, is this lying prattling skinhead pirate impersonator with the American flag draped behind his back the kind of guy you’d want as the voice/face of your company. Not if you had any sense. But then again, from what I’ve seen, these execs aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer and its probably hard for them to engage the services of reputable PR experts, who would likely decline to get involved in a whitewashing campaign on behalf of Monavie.

  377. Vogel permalink
    September 28, 2011 8:52 am

    Humiliated: “I have always thought of Vogel as a really smart “Simon Cowell” of these sites.”

    Thank you amigo. I was going more for chef Gordon Ramsey,but Cowell is good too.

  378. Vogel permalink
    September 28, 2011 9:03 am

    Humilated: “I personally don’t think that because someone is a father, husband or Christian proves that he is a good man, (many a criminal fall into this category) but his actions reveal who a person really is.”

    I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Simply having brothers/sisters, aunts/uncles, spouses, parents, and children, or even being a self-professed Christian, doesn’t give any insight at all into someone’s character or lack thereof. Every human on the planet has some sort of family and roughly 2 billion are Christians. To even mention this as a defense strikes me as incredibly disingenuous.

  379. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 28, 2011 12:21 pm


    Thanks for what you have done and I agree with Brent we can all show each other some dignity. Thanks for pointing out exactly how OW will manipulate! I think you are beginning to see this and is exactly why we know that speaking to him will solve NOTHING…the reputation management… Is a great example.

    I think by now you know we could give a rip of what O thinks and also know you could never fully understand it nor believe everything that is being said because that would be an impossibility for you unless you could retract and walk in our shoes….but then that is what we have been saying all along.

    The ONLY reason OW wants to know anyone’s identity (study Orrin/Qrush and his history there is enough in the public to draw a pretty good conclusion) and this has been said a million times is he wants to sue and silence. We know he tries to drown out the critics with his many positive web campaigns/ rhetoric and name changes. Why do you suppose he would make this a priority?

    It is obvious…it is a lot to late for any reconciliation for all on here don’t need to be told twice that any phone call with OW wouldn’t resolve a thing, expect give him people to practice his manipulation techniques on. It doesn’t take us not talking to him for O to manipulate the uniformed followers…it is to be expected….this skill he has honed.

    I mean no disrespect but I find it really odd that Brent and Mike, some really sharp guys that have lived what we have and You already Know of the deception, lies, and corruption, the massive losses and sustainability and gaming… at least Mike and Brent admit it and are vocal … That they and all of us are aware is the very foundation for feeding this industry and keeping it alive and well but yet none of you have stopped any of it either? Somehow I think you feel that you believe we are the ones who can…correct me if I am wrong. You all know as much as we do then… Why haven’t you all sued or stopped it yourselves?

    I cannot see the difference of anyone coming out with their identities (or that it has made a bit of difference) our messages are the same and being a vocal (with your name) critic vs anonymous critic does not change the message of truth. It has not changed a thing for anyone as far as I can tell (except to alarm others that this industry is full of corruption). Unless you all know and have done something we aren’t aware?

    We ALL know this, recruiting and internal consumption MLM’s (the major majority) have been proven to perpetuate great losses and not just financially but relationally, mentally and emotionally on the masses for DECADES, and what has been done by those who know this… NOTHING… for DECADES!… not a damn thing to stop any of these abuses and losses in the industry…. in spite of all the reporting to the proper authorities, lawsuits, books written and websites… and especially by those who have better resources. A lawsuit has personally been won here or there but then silenced and forgotten with no results to speak of.

    And yet you know what OW will do to manipulate and use as his defense; that we all are crying over spilt milk and our toys being stolen and you think that a class action suit from a small little minority..of ‘Anonymous bloggers’ that are just ‘venting’ and ‘whining’ and then you state this will only help OW build his reputation… that if we don’t come forward with our names… we cannot change anything? If that is truth and you believe it, then maybe this is where you and others could come in with your connections and make it happen.

  380. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 28, 2011 12:33 pm

    This is a way bigger problem than OW as we have all agreed, it is the industry itself but Lief is a major player in the contribution of it all. We continue to take all kinds of bullshit abuse to basically say we don’t have a leg to stand on, not quite the vote of confidence, yet you think by answering questions or suing O corrupted scheme will somehow do what to change this? I am not seeing it.

    As far as ‘illegal’ evidence.. Troy you stated by him refusing to give us a copy of the original contracts; it is illegal and unethical. Has Orrin admitted this to you and what will you do about it? Will you turn this into the proper authorities and DSA or do anything about it.. Will this stop Orrin? How many more ‘illegal’ things will or does it take..One isn’t enough? As stated there is no guarantee that the lawsuit will change anything except create a lot more financial loss, tie up people’s lives for years more and the same old lies to be told under oath…( let the best spinning and lies begin).. or that answering your questions will stop OW from abusing and ripping off thousands more? If you have the guarantee to this let us know, I am sure, without a doubt we would be more than serious to show an attorney what we have.

    So if Speaking to or working anything out with Orrin & Companies is what is making this hang in the balance or making or breaking it…then those of us who have lived it know that would be as effective as being thrown into arbitration (silence the truth from coming out in the yet the most effective and guaranteed way for ‘reputation management’)…That is exactly what O wants and uses as has used as defense with people in our teams, and as you agree; Does this exonerate his illegal activity or corruption and this would be acceptable by whom?..The same thing OW stated was Amway’s strategy to achieve their goal and I don’t doubt it was effective for Amway… but hypocritically, now MV (the last I knew) added an arbitration agreement. Hmm…. more confirmation.

    Troy, if half of what we say is truth and you truly mean what you say, want to get to the bottom of those who poison the industry and ‘change’ it, and you or anyone else thing we don’t have a leg to stand on then I have no doubt you could find a way with all your connections and the help of your investigative reporting skills… perhaps you could send a reporting investigator that is totally objective (like dateline did only more extensive) and has nothing to do with the industry to go to the seminars, majors, and opens, witness the deceptive techniques that poison the industry.. because you will never see it written, they live by a whisper campaign… get behind the stages, personally work their way in with OW and other PC as we have, find out how their profit-sharing and books really work (in the past before they legally found a way to continue) and do a real investigation. Who will Clean this industry up? Us?

    Sadly it would take an army to do this because then ALL the internal consumption Companies, would need to be investigated. (a) Either no one with the right resources and connections really wants too or they know as we do it will take an act of God or the Government to shut them down or crack down at least, just as Mike said.
    You need not be insulted because we respect Vogel.. Whether his approach is agreeable to you or anyone of us… shouldn’t affect the goal and we aren’t here to change anyone’s personality or approach because that is impossible… we can’t change anyone but ourselves…and just my beliefs if we believe in the golden rule then we act on that regardless…. he has proven many times he does his research and stated himself he is a straight shooter and is here to bring out the truth. He also has proven he has a heart for the underdog and has been much more of a support and has given valuable information to research to help us out. That does not mean we don’t appreciate anyone else’s help…
    Please Forgive me if I don’t have a lot of faith in any of this solving the REAL issues with Orrin or otherwise..I haven’t seen anyone yet make that happen, it is obvious it will take a way bigger event than one lawsuit and it has been said O will use it as we are just a ‘small group’ of whiners but the reality is we are a part of many hundreds if not millions over decades that have experienced the same things without a single solution..only for more corruption, silencing and cover ups to rear its ugly head and has far as I can tell the abuses continue as usual without a hiccup. No one should be surprised at our little corner of ‘whining’ here.

    If anything MLM internal consumption companies are popping up more than ever and where do they copy their strategies from… why do they use all the same techniques and BS rhetoric… why do they all use the same cult language….. And where have they learned and gotten the money to skirt the law…they have had decades to get away with this pay people off and hone these skills. Those skilled jump from one MLM to another and take their groups, ‘position’ (cheat) etc.. and nothing changes.

    So, I agree with all of you; that if any of us have done anything it will not be much of anything but sounding ANOTHER siren off , and is a good preventative… just as those before us have… it has helped some without a doubt and hopefully, someone somewhere will stop this madness. I am still looking forward to Troy’s report and appreciate those efforts. I apologize for the long post, and much ‘venting.’ Thanks Amthrax… 🙂

  381. Vogel permalink
    September 28, 2011 12:56 pm

    Dooly: “If Vogel’s conspiracy theory is remotely correct, then the purported reputation management strategy created for Orrin/TEAM/LIFE and Monavie worked… Brent, Mike and Dwayne, I’ll send our check as soon as I get paid…Now all Orrin has to do is tell folks ‘Do a search and you will find one small, but vocal, negative group of people who couldn’t cut it, but refuse to sue me, crying over spilled milk behind fake names yelling like little children who had their toys stolen’.”

    I don’t recall postulating any conspiracy theories here, but regardless, if Orrin were to say something like that, shouldn’t you be among the first to loudly denounce it as transparently self-serving BS? You would if the truth meant anything to you. Instead, it is YOU who is saying it, and it’s offensive.

    Dooly: “Most in this community deserve some form of closure. But until you are willing to gather the right legal counsel, and not listen to others you will never get that closure.”

    What does “and not listen to others” mean exactly. Aren’t you “others”? Are you telling people to not listen to you? If you are, it would be the best advice you’ve ever given. Or perhaps you really meant “and not listen to Vogel”, which I hope for the sake of your last shard of dignity, isn’t the case.

    Incidentally, this isn’t just about “closure” (which coming from you sounds a lot like “let’s sweep this under the rug as quickly as possible”). It’s about justice; it’s about preventing further victimization.

  382. Mike Collins permalink
    September 28, 2011 1:07 pm

    @Qrush core: I’ve asked Amthrax to forward you all an email from me. Hopefully he will.

  383. Mike Collins permalink
    September 28, 2011 4:33 pm

    Here’s some interesting information on the DSA:

    Talk about whoring for the industry.

  384. Vogel permalink
    September 28, 2011 5:06 pm

    Yup, the DSA is worse than ineffectual window dressing. They are a lobby group that exists to influence legislators to take a softer stance on MLM regulations.

    Amway has long poured huge amounts of money into funding the political campaigns of former distributors and candidates who are likely to take a stance against MLM regulations if elected. They even managed to get one of their own (Timothy Muris) appointed as head of the FTC under Bush (the Bushes too had allegedly benefited greatly from the largesse of Amway).

    The public would be best served if there were a lobby group that was the polar opposite of the DSA.

  385. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 28, 2011 5:11 pm

    Thanks Mike…I do believe there is a God! This shows there is still hope doesn’t do to much for the reputation of the DSA though. 🙂

  386. Mike Collins permalink
    September 28, 2011 6:19 pm

    I’m thoroughly convinced the DSA and all of their statistics are complete bullshit. They have been bought and paid for since they were infiltrated by the MLM industry. MLM IS NOT DIRECT SALES! They seriously need a name change.

  387. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 28, 2011 8:26 pm

    Hahaha…I have to chuckle at the YTB scam Michael, great link, I believe I mentioned this company to you in a previous conversation. When my “upline diamond” rebelled against Orrin and Team, he tried to lead us all to YTB. He was selling us all on the fact that YTB had given their consent for us to all bring our “training system” into YTB, and subsequently promote it throughout the entire company. We were given the charge to “systemize” the YTB model.

    In my anger and animosity, I did a full investigation of YTB, called their top earners, and analyzed it from top to bottom. I then compiled 15 reasons why YTB would not last a year (ironically it didn’t), and then emailed it to my “diamond”. I was shunned and told what a fool I was, my upline raided the team I had built, and that was the turning point for me as I went on a quest to discover the truth.

    The DSA is crap, yet so many MLM guys are willing to use it as a point of reference and statistics. I think Vogel may have a great idea when he said “The public would be best served if there were a lobby group that was the polar opposite of the DSA.” Now there is a worthy goal, but would be a big battle. It never ceases to amaze me how so many companies can screw so many people yet if you aren’t careful with what you say, they can slap a lawsuit on you at the drop of a hat.

  388. September 28, 2011 10:02 pm

    I sent the email from @mike to a few of you. If you did not receive it, let me know via email and I will forward.

  389. Vogel permalink
    September 28, 2011 10:08 pm

    Brent said: “The DSA is crap, yet so many MLM guys are willing to use it as a point of reference and statistics. I think Vogel may have a great idea when he said “The public would be best served if there were a lobby group that was the polar opposite of the DSA.” Now there is a worthy goal, but would be a big battle. It never ceases to amaze me how so many companies can screw so many people yet if you aren’t careful with what you say, they can slap a lawsuit on you at the drop of a hat.”

    It is a tough battle, sadly, but there are signs that the balance of power is changing. Traditionally, distributors haven’t had have much of a collective voice, or many rights at all for that matter, and when one occasionally spoke critically, the full weight of everything bad about MLM would rain down on them. Amway was notorious for that.

    Look at how things with Monavie were online a couple of years ago. The internet was filled with ridiculous hype about the company and little else. Anyone who posted a critical comment on a forum would be shouted down by a bunch of irate anonymous distributors who would pull out the usual litany of MLM101 dirty tricks – accusing you of being a negative, disgruntled failure, and a bad Christian who simply doesn’t understand MLM; laughing at your job; comparing corporate America to a pyramid scheme; vilifying doctors and “Big Pharma”; and bombing you with a bunch of BS about the product and business opportunity. Now, criticism of Monavie has a greater presence than praise on the internet; the distributors have a more unified voice (here for instance); and they can’t get away with telling the usual lies because they’ve all exposed (and the lies told about Monavie since its inception have been too numerous to count – virtually everything they ever said was a lie). They can’t act as the bullies on the block has they had in the past. A few websites have been instrumental in making that happen; Amthrax and Lazyman leading the way. The importance of their contributions cannot be overstated.

    MLMs, Monavie inclduded, have a history of harassing critics, suing dissenters, and using their lawyers and ill-gotten cash to get them out of hot water. That’s a lot to go up against for the lone distributor or website operator. But these companies are also vulnerable. For one, they can’t hide from the truth; it goes viral. The lid has been blown on quite a few of the company’s biggest lies. It cut them off at the neck — they can’t tell those lies anymore without looking like lying dolts running for cover (a fitting price to pay at minimum).

    You can be sure that the company especially doesn’t like critics who remain anonymous, because they can’t hit a target that they can’t identify (otherwise I’m sure they’d be barraging me with those unintimidating cease and desist letters).

    I keep thinking that maybe the newly established Consumer Protection Bureau would be of some help, but I’m not sure to what extent they up and running. Worth a shot.

  390. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 29, 2011 4:14 am

    Great thought Vogel, it is my understanding however that the Consumer Protection Bureau is there to enforce laws that are already on the books. The FTC has no problem with “internal consumption” models because they base the anti-pyramid law on the “motive” for buying the product. Now, all of us know what the “motive” for buying the product is, but unfortunately, the companies have learned how to skirt the law with a simple redefinition of its customer/distributor base. Michael and I have went rounds on this topic with many of the pro-mlm people out there (including Troy), but most of them choose to remain blind to the fact that 99.9% of the product being sold is simply consumed by those pursuing the “business” opportunity.

    I would be curious to know how much product is actually being sold at SRP and would be willing to bet that it is not even an amount that would be measurable. Of course Amway learned how to skirt this law with its member/volume client reporting rule, which placed the distributors butts in the sling instead of the companies. MV has done it through a simple redefinition of its base. A company owner recently told a friend of mine that over 50% of the people purchasing through their company were customers (bullshit).

    I logged into my mv back office the other day for the first time since 2008 and discovered that out of 600 plus distributors, I had 1 single person that had purchased product in the last 6 months, I am sure that ratio is probably the same across the board for just about everyone within the company. Once the business “push” stops, so does the flow of product, because there are simply not customers, outside the compensation plan willing to purchase product.

    The DSA, and pro-mlm people have such a presence, but I believe you are right Vogel when you say that companies are vulnerable when the truth is being exposed. As long as their are greedy and unscrupulous politicians with money flowing to them from the DSA, it seems that it would be difficult to make any headway. Michael was told however by someone who has actually stood before congressional hearings to not underestimate the power of blogging and stirring the pot. Your going to laugh at this pun but maybe it is time for a “MEDIA WAR” !!

  391. Burned Out With MV permalink
    September 29, 2011 7:36 am

    So to join the class action lawsuit you have to get 2 friends to join, who get 2 more friends to join, who get 2 more friends to join, who get 2 more friends to join, who get 2 more friends to join, who get 2 more friends to join, who get 2 more friends to , who get 2 more friends to join and they give you a real diamond. 🙂

    All kidding aside, it’s about time there is an outlet for all of us who have been royaly screwed over by the MLM industry to get back at least some of what we lost, though the loss of credibility with our friends and family will never be able to be replaced.

  392. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 29, 2011 7:44 am

    @Burned Out, hahahahaha, love it!

  393. Vogel permalink
    September 29, 2011 4:02 pm

    Brent: “Great thought Vogel, it is my understanding however that the Consumer Protection Bureau is there to enforce laws that are already on the books.”

    I think I see where you’re going with regard to inadequate MLM regulations, the 70:30 rule and such, but don’t you think Monavie has broken enough of the laws already on the books to warrant the interest of the CPB? I sure do. They’ve violated FTC fair advertising regulations and FDA regulations regarding health claims too many times to count. It’s worth a shot. You never know. A few compelling stories from burned victims along with stacks of evidence of FTC and FDA violations might be enough to get their attention. Lord knows, if there ever was a group of consumer’s deserving of protection, it’s those being assaulted by Monavie.

    I’d like to see Monavie prosecuted under RICO. It fits the definition of a criminal conspiracy.

  394. Mike Collins permalink
    September 29, 2011 5:15 pm

    I would personally like to see congressional hearings with enough people testifying about what they experienced in Monavie that congress would be compelled to supeona and question under oath most or all of the principles involved with this company.

    If this were to happen I would love to provide the panel with questions they should ask Dallin and company. And I know just the right ones to ask. This would be a great place to start then they could broaden the investigation to the rest of this bullshit industry.

    It is NOTHING more than white collar organized crime. I think you hit the nail on the head Vogel bringing up RICO.

  395. Vogel permalink
    September 29, 2011 5:54 pm

    Now you’re talkin’! I would love to see that day come. All it would take to get the ball rolling is one sympathetic ear at the DOJ, CPB, congress, etc. I’m sure there’s a politician or regulator out there who would be willing to take on Monavie as a pet project. A well orchestrated multi-pronged letter writing campaign targeted at the right people could be very effective. Everyone could get together in a massive blitz aimed at legislators, regulatory agencies, and the news media. I’d happily donate thoroughly documented summaries of key evidence pro bono for the cause and help in any way I can with strategy along the way.

  396. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2011 6:09 pm

    You guys are telling all your secrets and strategies…lol 🙂

  397. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2011 6:16 pm

    Btw~ Thanks Vogel for all you do.

  398. Vogel permalink
    September 29, 2011 6:31 pm

    No thanks necessary…the honor is all mine in serving a worthwhile cause…but thanks for saying thanks just the same.:)

    BTW, there’s nothing they can do to stop what’s already started.

    Just think where Mbarek and Qadaffi are now.

    You never know, in a little while they might be dragging Orrin and Dallin out of some stinky foxhole hiding place to stand trial. One can only dream.

  399. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2011 7:06 pm

    Thanks once again…you have always been the rock and we all appreciate that. I still believe it is that special opps training you got and the humor along with it. 🙂

    I do have to say most have to carry a dictionary around to keep up with your posts…lol.. I will never give up this fight even if it is to ‘whine over spilled milk and our toys being stolen’ because there are too many damaged lives before us, us, and after us.. and those who deny it and will not see this; are heartless, greedy, (fill in the blank).. in my opinion.

    I agree it certainly takes someone, anyone, or many, to stand up to the evil…a revolution..
    Many great changes have come about because someone cared and became sick and tired of tyranny.

    We do need that perfect storm. 🙂

  400. No Team For Me permalink
    September 29, 2011 7:51 pm

    Vogel, I like your ideas. But I think Orrin & Crew are the 1st place to start. With all their deception of telling people they could make money in MV when in truth, they were just using MV so they could sell their tools which is where the big money came from. With all the stealing of people’s groups. All the lies, all the deception, and there only product was their phony tools. At least with MV, people were actually getting a productd. But think of all the people who wasted thousands and tens of thousands of dollars on Teamscam materials and seminars. I say we need to go after Orrin & Crew 1st.

  401. Vogel permalink
    September 29, 2011 8:25 pm

    Good point NTFM. For the TEAMers, it makes sense to focus on O. On the other hand, if you go bigger you’d potentially have more allies to unite with among the non-TEAM distributors and more ways to cut off the head of the beast (i.e., the complaint could be even more comprehensive and compelling and involve more jurisdictions/agencies). That aspect of strategy is up to you all and whoever you eventually solicit to take up the cause on your behalf.

  402. lyk permalink
    September 29, 2011 8:36 pm

    @ Burned out with MV you said “though the loss of credibility with our friends and family will never be able to be replaced”

    What? your family won’t forgive you? thats low D:

  403. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2011 9:23 pm

    Burned Out~ LHOL…good one!


    Do You just come to share your compassionless.. heartless BS?
    Save it for someone who gives a sheet what you think…that wouldn’t be anyone here.

    Didn’t you want to join the conversation that has been going on Between Vogel, Mike, Brent, and NTFM, pretty good stuff, don’t you think?…lol

  404. Vogel permalink
    September 29, 2011 11:58 pm

    Think Nero playing the fiddle while Rome burns.

  405. humiliated permalink
    September 30, 2011 6:12 am

    i kind of agree with Vogel that if MonaVie can be taken down, it will be reflective of the industry failings as a whole. The “tool” companies that are the leeches on the underbelly of an already proven corrupt business will automatically be investigated along with MonaVie. The other way around, MonaVIe as the “mother ship” just distances itself from TEAM and the industry keeps on keepin’ on.

    I have to say, I began to feel a faint glimmer of hope reading what Mike, Brent & Vogel have been writiing. I see that action is being taken and it makes me proud! I don’t know what I can contribute but I am happy to help in any way!

  406. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2011 7:16 am

    @Vogel, great point here, now you are acknowledging my perspective. Thank you.

    “Good point NTFM. For the TEAMers, it makes sense to focus on O. On the other hand, if you go bigger you’d potentially have more allies to unite with among the non-TEAM distributors and more ways to cut off the head of the beast (i.e., the complaint could be even more comprehensive and compelling and involve more jurisdictions/agencies). That aspect of strategy is up to you all and whoever you eventually solicit to take up the cause on your behalf.”

    I believe a great place to start, is for all of us who have any access to a “back office” to begin compiling data ie. print screen, copy and paste whatever. I believe a great point of attack is internal consumption. Any thoughts? Many of us still have access to back offices, and we could begin to report data of distributors vs. customers, or people still doing volume. I am willing to go to work on my part to start feeding information to a couple of spokesmen here, and my vote is Vogel and Michael. I think you two should connect if even through email, and I can start shooting my investigations through Michael to Vogel, lets get this ball rolling.

    By debunking the “customer” only theory of the DSA and all of these other jokers, that gives a solid foothold on analyzing the actual compensation mathematics. Compensation is something I have a really good grasp on, and I would be willing to write reviews for each company, alphabetically based on the mathematics of their network. In addition, I will write analysis on the binaries, unilevels, stairsteps, straight lines, and matrixes which we can utilize as categories to begin placing the individual compensation analysis under.

    We also need to draft “form” leaders which all of us can begin to mail to our congress people on both a state and national level, and other consumer groups. A letter that would allow us to fill in the blanks about the company, compensation, blah blah blah, and then begin to file formal complaints.

    I do not care about trying to operate in “stealth” mode, if we are going to do this lets do it big and allow the world to see it. We can create the same “google” machine that many of you are giving OW credit for doing, but create it as Vogel stated earlier, as the “polar opposite”.

    I am telling you, there are thousands of us out there, but many just tuck their tails and run from the fight. Once, they get burned by MLM they buy into the notion that somehow it was their fault, and silently go away. I believe we can pull hundreds and even thousands of stories out of the woodwork that will support our cause, once people begin to realize that there is a place for them to tell their story, and people who are willing to do something about it.

    Just some thoughts here, looking for some feedback?

  407. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2011 7:21 am

    I meant form letters, not form leaders, sorry for the typo.

  408. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2011 7:46 am

    By the way, the “customer” only theory I refer to is a bunch of crap that we had a lengthy discussion on several months back with Troy, and quite a few other “top dogs”. The general consensus among the “gurus” is that somewhere around 70-80% of the people who join MLM do so just to receive a discount on the product. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That would explain why less than 1% still by product after they stop pursuing the business, RIGHT??

  409. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 30, 2011 8:16 am

    Here is an excellent letter and blog post that describes the dynamics and psychological effects of ‘business opportunity income fraud, it is worth the read and I believe will help anyone understand why there are so many people who will not come forward:

    If some how Vogel, you guys and these guys from this blog came together, I believe you could create the perfect storm..

    I could contribute but probably not on any level all of you can and my experience with MV was very short lived.

    Brent..’internal consumption’….hahaha..pretty sure that wouldn’t be too hard to prove..

    I will let all you great thinkers debunk.. 🙂

  410. Vogel permalink
    September 30, 2011 8:40 am

    Great thoughts. Let’s keep brainstorming and keep the ball moving.

    BTW, I recall Dooly saying on the 25th: “My goal is to release the first article in a series on tool companies this week, and at that time the one on TEAM/LIFE Orrin will be first.”

    Today’s Friday and I don’t see any articles on Troy’s site. I wonder if his spin doctoring contract got cancelled after his less than stellar performance here, or maybe he just abandoned the “investigation” of his own accord to be spiteful because people here stopped kissing his arse. Oh well, like I said before, the chief value of such a report would have been for entertainment purposes and reading between the lines.

  411. Vogel permalink
    September 30, 2011 8:46 am

    Interesting article there SYT. I’m just starting to read it but I was already struck by this comment:

    “The continued silence of UK govenment officials and Ministers (who apparently have known full-well that countless UK citizens have been destroyed, and continue to be destroyed, by this insidious, global, criminogenic phenomenon) could be construed as being part of an overall pattern of ongoing, major racketeering activity.”

    The racketeering part is consistent with what I was saying about prosecuting Monavie under the RICO Act.

    Now back to that article.

  412. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 30, 2011 11:06 am

    I haven’t seen or heard anything either, except the1 radio talk, which I believe was more of a promotion of Orrin and the tool companies. But one could only expect it and I believe will turn out that way coming from Troy, who admits he is downright biased and loves the MLM world and believes Orrin is the king of the tool industry. I think his intentions were to help but how can any of us believe that when it sounds to me more like he is trying to be the mediator? We are looking for true justice, not a mediator to solve some little misunderstanding and get with O to solve it. I realize he gave some names of attorneys and media people perhaps they will be used. Even though it seemed like the critical questions are being asked in the radio talk show, it seemed to me at least it was always turned back to how great the tool companies and Orrin is.

    I agree with what you said even though it isn’t supposed to not be a part of the investigation according to Troy…it would be common sense that he promotes O as much as anyone else that is fooled by him so therefore how could anyone expect him to really be objective as you said; he would then be betraying the ‘industry’ and his mentor and ‘friend.’

    I will give him the benefit of the doubt..but he has already primered us; with what we can expect from him, so I value my life and won’t hold my breath. He does appear to have compassion for those who have suffered and do think he means it right up until the reality has to be faced. The question of asking us to get with Orrin, I believe came right from Orrin himself and is the very thing O has used to get others to turn on people and believe ‘we are just a bunch of whinners who quit’, aren’t Christian, blah,blah, blah. Troy, apparently doesn’t believe anyone when they say O does NOT practice conflict resolution and (again his only goal is to manipulate, silence, and sue)

    If he would really investigated and call some who was closest to Orrin including his old mentor on how Orrin’s idea of conflict resolution works… he would get his answer because he obviously doesn’t believe us. He cannot see or does not believe we KNOW O and how he opperates. I don’t know how much more vocal we can be to get him to understand this.

    You nailed it when you said they have no target if they cannot identify it and that is why so many of the defenders come here and use that very ploy to try and get someone to say who they are!

    I really do hope Troy brings forth ‘something’ and the seriousness of the damages and got some confession (lol) that Orrin and the PC has commited all these things people have said..but we all know better. And we all know O will deny, spin, and twist, every bit of it. I appreciate anyone helping.. including Troy but he really doesn’t know Orrin or how manipulative he really is. And the most ironic is Troy doesn’t even realize O is, will, or has manipulated even him. He is a master at this.

    I agree with you it would be foolish for us to show our hand to anyone, unless it is someone we whom we can trust. 🙂

    Thanks for checking the article out, and knew you would find value in it. I think they have some other great articles too.

  413. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 30, 2011 10:02 pm

    Vogel would you care to give your thoughts on this?

    How terribly disappointing.

  414. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2011 11:39 pm

    @Speak, Translation: Big money and big lobby has payed the right people to sweep this under the rug for a bit. Its all bad amigo!

  415. humiliated permalink
    October 1, 2011 7:55 am

    Great ideas Brent. I no longer have access to my “back office”. It was odd but I tried to go in, maybe a year ago because I wanted to look at the attrition rate, and they wanted distributors to agree to some sort of new contract before you could log on. I read it over quickly but now I can’t remember what the issues were that they wanted us to sign off on.Since I don’t trust them , I didn’t want to sign or agree to ANYTHING, I cancelled my membership or whatever you call it.

    I am Canadian and will have to look into exactly who or what regulatory body we would send this form letter to here. I would really like a copy of the letter once it is created.

  416. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 1, 2011 9:22 am


    I believe you are right, unfortunately….so the flag is waved once again… for more decades of misleading and blind siding millions of Americans…. and the corruption continues.. 😦

    The fight cannot be given up…It will take that perfect storm, coming from the ultimate power great than all of us! 🙂

    Amthrax is doing a phenomenal job at continuing to get the facts out, and we all know the ‘negative’ TRUTH….Is very effective…just ask the o’ wise one O… he most certainly agrees…lol

    It is as they say; their BIG ROCK and becomes their ‘priority’…rather than practice what they preach,… that the ONLY way to prove the critic wrong is to go ‘prove it’ with your success or the ‘best revenge is success’….lol.

    But we all know the only thing it ‘proves’ is that it is unsustainable with atrocious attrition rates! So therefore, it is necessary for them to use thought reform. What a vicious cycle…

    I am blessed to begone!

  417. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 1, 2011 10:02 am

    One last thing:

    “The reason? According to the FTC staff, the line between MLM fraud and legitimate direct selling is too complicated! The FTC staff report states, “… identifying a pyramid scheme (or, at least, one that attempts to disguise itself as a legitimate business opportunity) entails a complex economic analysis including an in-depth examination of the compensation structure and the actual manner in which compensation flows within an organization… There is no bright line disclosure that would help consumers identify a fraudulent pyramid from a legitimate MLM.”

    OMg…because the line between MLM fraud and legitimate direct selling is ‘too complex’ for the FTC…Are they Serious?

    I thought they were supposed to Protect the Consumer!..But it is ‘too complex’ to do that?…Who pays their salaries or supplies the FTC workers bread-n-butter? What an insult to the American People! Pyramid Scheme Alert and their team I am pretty sure have made the ‘too complex’ …simplified for them? It is quite you said.

    Does everything always have to be about the money…why is this country the way it is?

    What happened to doing the right thing…just because it is the right thing to do? How disheartening and disturbing!

  418. Vogel permalink
    October 1, 2011 10:06 am

    SYT, I thought that the MLM exemption from the business opportunity rule happened a while back. I guess maybe they didn’t reach a final decision until recently.

    Here’s an interesting letter (Jan 2011) from a law firm to the FTC about the rule. Might be worth having a discussion with these guys about the plight of the TEAMers.

    Click to access 00027-57370.pdf

    I’m still thinking that it would be worth your while to try to find a congressman who might want to take on this issue. The power of media exposure cannot be underestimated either. One good TV or news exposé can be enough to compel legislators to take action.

  419. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 1, 2011 12:16 pm

    Vogel….Thanks for that link, your thoughts and advice after reading some of this I agree it could be a great resource,..I need to finish reading the rest of this. It simply amazes me how prevelant the corruption in our country is, and how the downright truth is ignored. It is no wonder why the majority feel helpless.

    I still believe in people and the majority of American people are good hardworking, honest people (at least those I surround myself with) watching those with the money in power destroy our country because those with the most money….. power and greed appear to rule. I can’t claim I understand it all..not even close..but common sense makes it obvious. I hate politics because of that.. the obvious is obvious..I just wish good ole fashion honesty prevailed. Doesn’t mean the tide can’t turn! 🙂

  420. brent hansen permalink
    October 1, 2011 9:25 pm

    Vogel, great link. It reminds me of the exemption that many of the unions and certain corporations have been given from obamacare. Its all about the money.

  421. lyk permalink
    October 2, 2011 9:30 am

    @Speak Your Truth,

    Lol you cared enough to insult me, Looks like you have grown and matured thanks for the tip.
    Lol you seems your pretty heartless instead of me with your BS lol; I wouldn’t say that cause Im not gonna fall as low as you Lmao.

  422. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 2, 2011 9:57 am

    Really? You already did.

  423. October 4, 2011 12:26 pm

    Troy, any update with your investigation? How did you conversation go with Orrin? I tried listening to one of your radio podcasts, but it required us to pay $10 to listen to it. Can you make this public. I really don’t have ten bucks as you know I was financially ravaged for 10+ years in Orrin’s tool scam.

    I know you previously admitted that there were some huge issues here and that it was illegal for Orrin Woodward to not give copies of the contract to his profit sharing distributors. Do you still feel this way. I would love to hear your report on your findings.

    I know Vogel seems pretty upset, but understand we have all been hurt, burned and tormented by this organization. Please understand where these people are coming from. Orrin is the real problem. His tool business is the problem. His ethics are the problem. The lies, slander and anonymous blogging/smear campaigns that he engages in IS the problem. Orrin, the mastermind behind QRUSH, is the problem.

  424. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 7:44 pm


    I am with you..I hope Troy holds to his word. I did see where he said he is charging $10 per month for his new Multilevel Marketing Advocates blog. I highly doubt he would expect us to pay for that…that certainly wouldn’t be right; he said he would get to the bottom of this with his investigation. I thought he was going to have it done by the end of Sept. maybe I have that wrong.

  425. brent hansen permalink
    October 4, 2011 8:06 pm

    I just touched base with Troy, he is busy on the road, but he hasn’t forgotten.

  426. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 8:26 pm

    Great… Thx

  427. Vogel permalink
    October 4, 2011 8:30 pm

    On the road? What’s he running from now?

    Tell him that his book report on Orrin is late. He promised that he would turn it in last week.

  428. Vogel permalink
    October 4, 2011 8:43 pm

    SYT: “I still believe in people and the majority of American people are good hardworking, honest people (at least those I surround myself with) watching those with the money in power destroy our country because those with the most money….. power and greed appear to rule. I can’t claim I understand it all..not even close..but common sense makes it obvious. I hate politics because of that.. the obvious is obvious..I just wish good ole fashion honesty prevailed. Doesn’t mean the tide can’t turn!”

    I agree 100% and I share your hopes and optimism for the working man/woman.

    As hard as it is, I try to resist the urge to hate politics too much. Some in the corridors of power screw things up badly on purpose so that we’ll do exactly that. They are doing everything they can to make government dysfunctional so that we’ll lose faith, stop defending our interests, and bow out of the political dialog in disgust. They’d rather we preoccupy ourselves with crap TV and Ambion.

    Never give up the good fight!

  429. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 11:19 pm

    Thanks Vogel for your encouragement….holy crap it’s needed. I wish I was a ‘quitter’ it would be a lot easier but the good Lord didn’t build me that way. 🙂

    And your humor once again from the previous post. LOL

  430. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:18 am

    Amthrax, I am sorry for posting this here, but I know that Troy is following this thread and I would like him to see the story of Wounded Bear, and give suggestions specifically about this situation.

    You see Troy, this is the kind of crap that happens behind the scenes of MLM that I am continuously referring to. This is the stuff that further invalidates the MLM model. The offer by Ken Stewart to Michael Collins, and this shuffling of people as told by Wounded Bear. This is the kind of mitigating factors that negate the average persons ability to ever earn from a MLM compensation plan. THIS STUFF IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE! What do you have to say about this???

    “I’m going to share my story from the end, backward to the beginning…that way more recent memories will bring to light older ones. We are friends with Emily a nice down to earth gal…one evening at a Tuesday night open we were seen visting, afterward our rt couple came over to us and said “you can’t vist with Emily because she is up and cross line to you. BS! We have been out for 3 years…still paying off some debt…should have followed the leaders and declared bankruptcy that seems to be the TEAM way. But it never crossed my mind.
    After we quit…i love saying that word it’s such a taboo word on TEAM. I had called our rt couple, a few times just out of friendliness…no such thing on his end. C.M. asked me if I was coming back…i should have said maybe, instead I said NO. That did it, within the next 30 days all my producers on my second leg…you know where the money is…had other ids in the form of LLCs and were on the taproot. Oh I was hot! How dare they do that. We drove our tail off building that team in ohio. But that was one of the most dishonest things they could have done, because you and I have heard ORRIN & CHRIS among others from stage teach that in this business you can build a residual income. And later on if you would ever decide to go do something else, there would be that income that you had labored for.”

    The thread:

    [ed note: added blockquote for readability]

  431. knowsbetter permalink
    October 13, 2011 5:45 pm

    Orrin Woodward is Qrush and personally launched, managed and authored the site.
    In fact, most of the negative internet attack on Amway/Quixtar that surfaced during the TEAM litigation after Orrin’s termination was orchestrated and launched at Orrin’s direct instruction. Then, after being sued for it, he lied and made everyone else lie including Ben Dickie who was the paid employee of Team who worked for Orrin and was under his direct supervision to facilitate the accounts for all the ‘anonymous’ bloggers attacking Amway/Quixtar.
    Then Ben resigned from Team because he was being pressured to lie when Amway/Quixtar started to dig deep enough through Orrin’s lawyers. Then Orrin blamed him for Team’s problems and told everyone Ben stole money from Team and was being paid for nothing. The ‘nothing’ was the ‘something’ that Orrin didn’t want anyone to know about. All of us ‘anonymous’ bloggers knew this. Many times we were called directly by Orrin, Chris or Tim and told exaclty what we should post on our blogs. Pretty sure this is the same reason the TEAM attorney Kevin Thompson resigned and left Team also. Pretty sure that’s why the head of the IT department, Bob, resigned and left Team too. Pretty sure this is why numerous employees of Team resigned and left Team. They weren’t fired… they ran away from the tyrant and his corrupt reign of terror over everyone including his own subjects. Love to get my hands on those resignaton letters.
    If you want confirmation of these facts, contact Ben Dickie, contact Kevin Thompson. Not sure if they will confirm but I know they will not deny! Which really is confirmation.

  432. brent hansen permalink
    October 14, 2011 5:35 am

    There you go Troy, knowsbetter has provided you with a pretty confirming testimony, and since you are friends with Kevin Thompson, should be easy to confirm the point of this whole thread, and your investigation.

  433. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 14, 2011 6:01 am

    Haven’t been on this post in a while,

    loss of credibility with friends and family – get them into MV and then just TRY to sell them something else, 🙂

    RICO – yup, the shoe fits

    all this legal drama – can’t think of another industry that is not mobed up having this % of litigation associated with it

  434. Rob Thomas permalink
    October 14, 2011 7:07 am

    Who is Ben Dickie?

  435. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 14, 2011 8:35 am

    I guess knowsbetter… left no room for Excuses. Now…just how long is this investigation going to take, it is certainly taking longer than what we expected. I do realize Troy was traveling a while back but curious why we haven’t heard a thing.

    Thanks for sharing that knowsbetter. We all know that Orrin, Chris, and Tim, are compulsive liars…but the LYING Under Oath…Perjury….Beaking the law.. and pressuring people to do the same …is unconscionable,…. they are flat out Tyrants and Dictators..a lot of have been on the receiving end of this we already know this to be the truth… Tyranny is evil…just study past and recent history.There should be no reason why people remain anonymous..once they have a target…they will stop at nothing….

    There wives must be extremely proud of their Christian bullies..

    The most mindboggling of all is..There will people continue to spin and ignore this…rather than call Kevin or Ben…..stay in denial…and say from the bottom of their hearts…Orrin and these guys are the most honorable, courageous, men of integriy..who walk their talk and live by Chrisitan principles… know…they just make ‘mistakes’ and aren’t ‘perfect’..

    Snap out of it…No not even close…unless you consider Tyranny and Dicators …who deliberately, intentional lie under oath.. perjury…BULLY people.. is just a simple ‘mistake’..

    Judging by the fruit of their actions..They are a complete Disgrace… to Christianity, Honor, and Integrity.. but then then most of us already knew that and is why we have shared what we have. They wonder why people speak about (attack as they say) their ‘character’ …that they and others promote as ‘spotless’..

    Time will tell…the truth Always finds you out… and the facts and truth Can’t and Won’t… be denied.

  436. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 14, 2011 9:55 am

    Here are just a few quotes right out of the mouth, from the blog of Qrush…or Orrin as the anonymous Qrush.

    “Bo Short has single handedly done more damage to the MLM industry by his parasite marketing, personal attacks on other leaders, multiple failures as a leader, and general lack of class, than any other group of leaders put together.Bo is severely lacking in character, honor and integrity due to never having been humbled by his numerous failures.”

    “Bo will break any friendship, destroy his own character, and even lie about his former associates to gain an advantage.”

    “How do all his ex-associates feel when he leaves them high and dry when he quits his various MLM enterprises? In Bo Short’s case principles change as soon as conditions change. :)”

    “Scott Larsen has helped no one else because he is incapable of helping himself. Scott will lie, cheat, and steal from others if he feels it will benefit him or his cause. Scott plays the role of concerned protector, but flies off the handle at anyone who does not believe and do exactly as he says. Scott is a master manipulator and forgets the truth himself as he lies so much that he believes them too. Scott is a sick man child who needs psychological help.”

  437. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 14, 2011 10:03 am

    Here is one last quote for the day;

    “Qrush: Bo Short refuses to recognize any authority figure in his life and refuses follow any of the basic rules of life and respectable character traits.”

    How interesting….

  438. switch permalink
    October 14, 2011 10:52 am

    😯 …… I don’t have the words.

  439. outsider permalink
    October 14, 2011 12:06 pm

    Brent said (October 11, 8:18 am), “You see Troy, this is the kind of crap that happens behind the scenes of MLM that I am continuously referring to. This is the stuff that further invalidates the MLM model. . . THIS STUFF IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE!”

    I may be overstating the obvious, but I’d like to ask readers here to bear in mind the logical possibilities regarding ANY response that Troy ultimately offers to this (if and when he might do that).

    If Troy were to reply to Brent’s point with any version of “I did/do not know that” (and that includes anything about not being sure of how widespread the racketeering might be, or not being quite convinced that it IS widespread, or anything similar) . . . then, the possibilities are as follows:

    1) He’s shockingly bad at his job of examining and reporting on MLM (in which case whatever else he may say is rather useless to the folks posting/reading here) OR

    2) He’s lying (in which case the same can be said, of course)

    And if Troy were to reply with any version of “Duh, I already know that,” . . . then,

    3) He’s completely without morals to be advocating MLM as he does (in which case we’re still left with his opinions being useless to anybody here).

    Unless no reply is forthcoming, or the reply fails to yield an actual answer (in the tried and true MLM tradition that everybody here has had more than enough of!), I suppose some people might find it interesting to see which of those 3 options is the winner . (?) Either way, I really hope people can see that the end result will be the same. Troy’s reply (or, for that matter, that of any MLM proponent who also claims to “know” the industry as well as he does) must fit one of those options, so . . . it can’t and won’t be particularly useful.

    [Just in case it’s not clear to anyone who is in currently in MLM why I would claim that a response of “I didn’t know” must yield either #1 or #2, above, let me clarify immediately. I am not in MLM, myself; I’ve only recently investigated it because people I care about are. Yet the facts that Brent (and everybody else here!) points out are abundantly clear and have been extremely easy to discover. It’s positively beyond belief that someone who really researches and discusses MLM for a living wouldn’t be aware of them.]

  440. rickdg permalink
    October 14, 2011 11:25 pm

    I agree 100% with outsider. Thanks for putting into words exactly what I felt yet couldn’t explain. So what you are saying is that “MLM advocate” is an oxymoron. What a way to make a living – well it beats a real job. All I have to do is sit around and write blogs about this paper mache industry that people refer to as MLM. However, I am convinced that Drooly wont be back due to the lashing he took from Vogel. One thing that I am confused about – is there seems to be some here that believe his story. It almost makes me think he has some of Orrin in him.
    I still think the goal was to bring up the courts. Just the idea of dealing with a litigation situation scares a lot of people. He knows it – but his boss knows even more.

  441. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 12:04 pm

    I too agree and I don’t think anyone is naive enough to think otherwise..but am still giving the benefit of the doubt..only to prove his word and am very curious how this will unfold..after the talk I am sure he has had with O. Did O admit to being Qrush or all the other things that a real investigator would outsider said…it will prove his skills.

    Mostly, I am curious because we have been fed a line of indoctrinated bullsh*t for so many years and watched people through this entire greedy industry… say one thing and do another…not one of the PC has held to their word.. then claim they have the utmost character and integrity. For me personally as outsider pointed out…it is a matter of revealing true character and crediblity…after that well…judge.. by their fruit.

  442. outsider permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:07 am

    “So what you are saying is that “MLM advocate” . . .”

    Actually, I’m sayin’ an MLM advocate is a spin doctor for racketeers. Period.

    If sometimes someone like that uses a lot of sweet talk, well . . . that’s just a part of his J.O.B. 😉

    [It pains me that so many of you here got to know the racketeers the hard way as you all describe so well! I do get it that you guys who are the backbone of this blog know this TOO well, but I wanted to highlight that logic for the sake of your less experienced readers.]

  443. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:45 am

    Thanks and I wasn’t trying to offend you in anyway…point taken.

  444. outsider permalink
    October 16, 2011 12:18 pm

    Oh, no offense, at all, SYT! I really should have pointed out that I meant to be replying to where rickdg said, “So what you’re saying is . . .”
    I’ve read enough of this site to know that SYT is one who’s seen it all and is now telling it all! (And I’m one of those who found that refreshing and helpful a few months back.)

  445. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 12:27 pm

    Thanks for sharing that and clarifying also… 🙂

  446. Scott Gleason permalink
    October 18, 2011 3:58 pm

    Hey everyone. Troy has posted an article and video about his investigation into Orrin/Team/Life at

    He had posted the article on a paid membership site, so you have to pay $10 a month to be able to view it. I personally am not willing to pay to read the article, but perhaps someone else will.

  447. brent hansen permalink
    October 18, 2011 4:51 pm

    Scott, thanks for the heads up. I will get on and check out the article. Have a great night!

  448. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 18, 2011 6:50 pm

    Seriously Troy? WOW…That is really Too bad… You could have been honest and up front with us…Expecting everyone to ‘join’ your website for 10 bucks?…Sorry but that is low. But hey Free Enterprise reigns again..

  449. das permalink
    October 18, 2011 7:07 pm

    I wonder if Orrin is willing to correct the line of sponsorship when Team switch to MV, and will he see that everyone is paid back what is owed to the leaders he screwed over? That would be a start. OH, and one more thing. Stop with the half truths and the lies like how much money everyone is making. Just be honest when showing the business to new prospects. Orrin and Team have a lot of mending to do before they will ever be leaders with character and integrity.

  450. Candace permalink
    October 19, 2011 6:47 am

    Scott said:
    “(Troy) had posted the article on a paid membership site, so you have to pay $10 a month to be able to view it. I personally am not willing to pay to read the article, but perhaps someone else will.”

    To which I say: Shocking. (Not). Only the newbies will be surprised by this. This is how it works, people. For decades now. Scammers have a way of finding one another and uniting until they all stab one another in the back. Each only out to make the quick and easy buck.

  451. brent hansen permalink
    October 19, 2011 8:57 am

    Speak, if Amthrax doesn’t I will.

  452. brent hansen permalink
    October 19, 2011 8:58 am

    I meant webelieved, sorry!

  453. Vogel permalink
    October 19, 2011 9:36 am

    Is anyone the least bit surprised that Drooly is trying to leverage the suffering of TEAMers for his own personal gain? I’m certainly not. I watched his video teaser and he said some pretty offensive things about the distributors — seems like he’s throwing you all to the wolves.

    I hope that no one succumbs to the urge to give this a$$-clown $10 for his useless article.

    He’ll probably use the proceeds to underwrite his true passion in life: blogging about sex with kids. I’ve looked at a few of his blog posts on the topic and I still can’t tell whether he’s for or against. Regardless, he shows an odd fascination for the subject. How creepy is that?

    Troy has chosen a very odd personal branding strategy — i.e., a pseudo-expert in both MLM and kiddy sex. Ick!

    Editor’s Note: Let’s keep the conversation on topic. I will be posting Troy’s article shortly.

  454. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 19, 2011 2:26 pm


    Bahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!……That is some funny stuff…Sometimes I just come for the comedy show.. 🙂

  455. das permalink
    October 19, 2011 3:04 pm

    Here is a classic Qrush quote!

    Bo buying three legs for your diamondship is not what Qrush calls growing quickly. That is what you call selling out for the money in an organization that designed their system wrong. You cannot play the innocent victim, when you schemed your way into diamond to scam the real pins of their fair share of the profits.

    Pot…Meet Kettle!

  456. das permalink
    October 19, 2011 3:28 pm

    Some interesting questions Orrin asked Bo. He should be asking himself most of these same questions right about now.

    1. How long do you stay with the sinking ship?
    2. Will Bo speak honestly with IBO’s about his debtload?
    3. Will Bo speak honestly about his wife paying the bills?
    4. What is the refund policy on the garage full of products?
    5. Is Bo still actively looking for a buyer and where does that leave IBO’s?
    6. Why wasn’t Bo honest about his pin working in Quixtar (for soooooo long)?
    7. Can Bo Short still have character and leadership after so many questionable activities (I did not have sexual relations with that woman)?
    8. Is anyone in Passport truly making money after expenses?
    9. Why doesn’t Bo speak honestly about his sales revenue?
    10. Are other Passport IBO’s tired of the fluff and looking for real data from Bo?
    11. Who is the Sweat family and what are their intentions on their loan to Bo?

  457. brent hansen permalink
    October 20, 2011 5:02 pm

    I received a message from Troy he said, ” Brent, sorry for the delay. Thank you for the feedback. Amthrax had public access to the article from the day it went live on the member site. I am not sure why they have not made it available to the community.”

    So if any of you who don’t want to pay $10 to subscribe to the “Advocate” website, apparently this article has been available to all of you, all along. Please contact Amthrax if you wish to access this article. Thanks!

  458. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 20, 2011 6:10 pm

    Thanks Brent~

    We have been here long enough to know Amthrax is ‘johnny on the spot’…so I am sure there is a reason and will be answering or putting it up.

    You say; “So if any of you don’t want to pay $10 to subscribe to the Advocate website?”….Did we give you the impression we did?…LOL…Thanks for the laughs… 🙂

  459. October 21, 2011 3:26 am

    Everyone, I just posted Troy’s article in a new post here. Feel free to comment there or here.

    Let’s keep the conversation on topic. I had to moderate several comments that I categorized as off-topic.

  460. whozie permalink
    April 10, 2012 9:56 am

    Sorry that I am a little late to the discussion. Nobody invited me!

    Let’s look at it from a motivation stand point. If he had penned the blog and had the access to make changes, why wouldn’t he have removed it by now? What benefit could he have by leaving it up? To continually garener speculation that he was behind it to tarnish his name? He is not that stupid. Leaving that thing could only lead to negative speculation to him, like this post on Amthrax demonstrates. If he had penned it, he would have taken it down as soon as we settled the lawsuit and took on Amway.

    I do not believe he was the author.



  461. April 10, 2012 12:42 pm

    @Scott – If he no longer has access to the Blogger account, he won’t be able to delete the blog entries.

  462. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 10, 2012 2:30 pm

    It doesn’t take a genius to figure out if Orrin is Qrush; based on the testimonies of those who knew for a fact he is, Orrin’s implied admission to guilt, well, read between the lines message the typical cowards way of avoiding answering honesty and openly the yes or no question.Neither he nor Troy had the guts to be honest, and either Troy didn’t ask or did get the answer and was too gutless to report it. Neither one have the guts to be honest.

    You whosie/scott are a perfect example of cognitive dissonance, it must make you feel better if you just believe what you ‘want’ as you ingnore the obvious. And it is flat out blantantly obvious Orrin is either paying people to clean up his reputation or has them under his spell to do it for free for the good of, which only works for people like whozie/scott to ‘want’ to believe.

    Looks like O is up to his same ole’ tricks. No surprise just a bunch of people he is gathering under his spell and doing ‘His’ dirty work of cleaning up ‘His’ reputation.

    That would be Orrin’s responsiblity to clean up his own reputation, No?. His negative actions got him ‘His’ reputation, so that should be the clue in how to ‘fix’ it.But hiring or getting the PR group to buy in and defend him… Fits right in with the MLM M.O.


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