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Dean Kosage Leaves WWDB

June 30, 2010

Update January 3, 2012: Dean Kosage, or at least someone connected to Dean, wants to take this blog page… down by any means necessary.


Dean Kosage leaves WWDB

It’s official. Dean Kosage has left WWDB1 to join up with another former WWDB Diamond Brad Wolgamott. They are forming their own System called VSix that will provide teaching and training to Amway distributors. Kosage appears to have his own System called Freestyle and Wolgamott has his own called VSix. They are collaborating together, however, with their two respective Systems.

Many moons ago, I wrote a post wondering if Dean would be leaving Amway and WWDB to join up with MonaVie. Turns out he left WWDB, but not Amway, at least not yet. With his own System, he’s poised to grab more of the System profits than ever before. In addition, this paves the way for an easier break from Amway in the future (should he decide to jump ship) as he doesn’t have to convince the WWDB board to follow him.

Distributors downline from Kosage are now faced with a decision: do I follow my leader or the WWDB organization? By building up a his own cult of personality over the years, Kosage hopes that his downline join him in his new System venture.

I’m eager to hear the spin from both sides regarding his departure. Will the WWDB leaders, who have already removed Kosage from the WWDB web site, badmouth him on the way out? Will Kosage shower WWDB with praise now that he’s on his own? Let the spin games begin!

Update: Here’s the voicemail regarding Dean’s “termination” from WWDB (link no longer works)2.

Update #2: I guess Dean and Brad Duncan won’t be driving in Brad’s Porsche anytime in the near future. The video below from Dean’s blog. They are heading to the River House, which is still for sale (price reduced!) at $17 million dollars.

Site visitors! What do you think of Dean’s departure from WWDB? Is it a good thing for both parties? Good for WWDB only? Good for Dean? Good for nobody? Leave your thoughts in the comments section below!


1 The AmwayBlog post is no longer available.

2 The MP3 is no longer available from the now-defunct AmwayBlog website.

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265 Comments
  1. Joecool permalink
    July 1, 2010 8:37 am

    Someone once told me that when a ship is sinking, the biggest rats jump off first. LOL.
    🙂

  2. July 1, 2010 8:57 am

    I thought WWDB was the BEST system to be a part of? Why would someone leave?

    I would leave something if the money wasn’t good enough to stay.

    I’m curious to see what the prices of Vsix are compared to WWDB.

    I’d REALLY like to see someone who has the money that the Amway guys say is possible, but only through the movement of products.

    Still think that we’ll see another mass exodus from Amway.

  3. Joecool permalink
    July 1, 2010 10:56 am

    They used to say WWDB was the BEST and the MOST PROFITABLE LOS, so why would someone want to leave the best and most profitable LOS? 🙂

  4. Joecool permalink
    July 1, 2010 12:56 pm

    Holy Moly Batman!

    http://www.amquix.info/kosage.html

  5. Anonymous permalink
    July 8, 2010 12:41 am

    News flash folks, he didn’t leave…he was booted out. Everyone knows that having a support system in place is key in retaining your 20k person group all over the world! I think you’d be an idiot to leave…biting the hand that feeds! They just couldn’t justify him anymore…word is, he’s been out of diamond qualification for almost 2 years now too…WW will allow you to speak for 2 years after you fall out, but then you’re off the circuit…that may have opened the perfect time for WW to cut their losses. He wants to be a rock star…and WWDB was fed up. Shores and the Duncan’s turned their heads on a lot of crap in the 90’s that Dean pulled, but the gamble over the past 10 years to edify DK paid off…the younger crowd adores him (if they only knew…as Dave Severn best stated…Pigs Don’t Know Pigs Stink)…but now they are having to manage all the negative PR and concern that has been created by WW tossing him out. Karma is a bitch.

  6. Tony permalink
    July 9, 2010 11:08 am

    Amway & WWDB’s compensation plan is the worst of all the MLMs out there. I know former high level pins that got out and started a new business venture purely bc the $ was far better than WWDB… plus they were making money in something tangible, not just in selling dreams of being rich and unemployable (which being a Diamond is still more work than most regular full time jobs… you just get more $ and can set you’re own schedule some of the time).

    But I love Joecool’s first comment about the biggest rats jumping ship first… and you nailed Dean Kosage there.

  7. Joecool permalink
    July 12, 2010 11:28 am

    It amazes me how someone can go from dynamic leader to a loser so fast in WWDB.

  8. July 12, 2010 1:24 pm

    It’s easy when your “best friends for life” turn your back on you.

  9. Paul Terry permalink
    July 26, 2010 8:20 pm

    He never edified the system. Everything that he has is because of WWDB. You wouldnt even know his name if it was’nt for WWDB. He will sink and fade, his ego will take him down.
    Im not in Amway anymore or WWDB I sponsored alot of people but they all quit, so what
    Im not the leader to make it work. Maybe I was no good at Amway just like most of you.
    But it’s still true about Dean.

  10. Mal permalink
    July 26, 2010 10:59 pm

    Well he made more money n has more freedom than most of u ever will. He will big in amway and duncan n shores will still reap the profits (and no further need to train him). Think about that.

  11. The truth will set you free permalink
    July 27, 2010 12:13 am

    Brad Duncan is the next rat to go down. he will do and say anything to get people to spend their money. All these years they asked us to follow britt but when britt had his personal issues all of a sudden not even a message about britt… it was just forget about him.. The Karma already started hitting his family 10 years ago, with the relationships (dru the loser), lost lives,greg the hypocrite etc…

    What did dean learn from wwdb…

    how to deceive.

  12. Tony permalink
    July 27, 2010 8:18 am

    Mal… Sorry… Dean doesn’t have more freedom than anyone else… probably less freedom. $ doesn’t always equal freedom, especially in the Amway business. I work 37.5 hours a week… I guarantee you he works more than that (I’d know since I was personally sponsored by him). Do I make as much $ as him? No. Do I have more freedom than him? Hell yeah I do. Dean is (errr, should I saw WAS) traveling the country doing board plans, one-on-ones, checking Amvox (or whatever vm system they are using now), calling his leaders, doing his speaking circuit, going to his local events, etc. Sure he has more $ which entails him more things he can do… but he definitely doesn’t have the time and freedom that they portray they do.

  13. July 27, 2010 9:47 am

    Tony – great comment. I think people at the lower levels in the business underestimate how much work is necessary to maintain an large MLM organization. They think that it’s all over once they get to Diamond… no, no, no… the work is just starting. You hit the nail on the head regarding the tasks that Dean has to do on a daily basis. All that worrying about his downline quitting or not being properly motivated has got to keep him up at night.

  14. Joecool permalink
    July 27, 2010 2:46 pm

    Lets face it, there is no residual income in Amway and the freedom they portray. It’s very simple to conclude that once you know that more than half of all IBOs never last a year and out of the remaining ones, about 95% of those are gone within a few years. If these diamonds could walk away and collect heaps of money, why hasn’t any of them done so?

    For one thing, the tool income probably stops once you stop, and then the rest of your business will erode the moment you stop building it. Sure you might collect some income for a while but with the “side volume” requirement and the attrition, I doubt that a significant income can be collected for any length of time once you walk away.

  15. Anonymous permalink
    August 27, 2010 8:59 am

    I am happy to hear he is gone. He had NO character or integrity to be a part of WWDB. All he was focused on was himself and getting laid by hot girls that would fall for his lying! WWDB and Amway are great organizations and he needed to leave a long time ago. Good Riddens!

  16. Tom permalink
    October 7, 2010 8:45 pm

    Time freedom…anyone who has ever been in an MLM has fealt that draw…the beautiful, yet deceptive combination of time and money. Excellent points by both Tony and Amthrax. I’ve had the “pleasure” of associating with very high pins in 2 different MLMs and the naivety is astonishing when it comes to rookie MLMers…even for well established/successful folks. Time freedom is the unresistable call of the Sirens…which have lured us all to the rocky shores. To actually believe that as a diamond or DD you can put it on cruise control is pure ignorance, not stupidity, but ignorance. Stupidity is when the fog clears (you’ve been “in” long enough and start to see glimpses of the facade) and you are still paddling as hard as you can towards the rocky shore. It’s all about motivation and turnover…I’ve never seen an industry with such turnover…over the course of 10-15 years, even diamonds and above will erode away. To be successful, long term, you need to build kings of your kingdom, but that still doesn’t protect you from the natural law that ‘the only constant in the world is change’. Brad Wolgamott was the king in Duncan’s business…natural law has changed that landscape….we could march right on down the list of all the diamonds that are ruby level and below…or think about all the people that have been ‘fighting the fight’ for the past 10-15 years that are not any farther in their business in the past 5+ years. Not to say many of them aren’t better people for following a dream, reading books etc, but the shear time/money it takes is incredible. That time and money devoted to another business, with the values and principles they’ve learned could have put them in a better situation than managing a platinum business….which, in my opinion, would be Hades on Earth!

    Most of us aren’t “haters”, just more informed than the ones caught in the fog. I would never discourage anyone from joining an MLM as long as they realize what they are signing up for. I have multiple friends that do well, but they aren’t ‘free’.

    Cheers!

  17. Sean Zupke permalink
    November 10, 2010 4:07 pm

    Look at it this way. Here is a gentlemen that has enormous talent and has reached the “top” if you will, of WWDB. I look at it as he wants to do more and build something else. He still has his Amway business that is bringing in money, he did not leave that, just the mentor-ship program of World wide. If he wants to build something bigger in another company or start his own, more power to him!

  18. November 10, 2010 4:17 pm

    What are you guys talking about. You guys don’t understand the word “success” when you reach that level, your job has just begun. Now you have a big organizations that depends on you. Yes you have freedom, but along with freedom comes responsibilities. It’s not just in amway. the same is true in every industry. You work hard to get on top. now you need to work harder to stay on top. But once you reach that level it becomes fun, a passion, a game. traveling the world, live like a superstar…etc. For example: Oprah, bill gates, michael jordan, kobe briant, donald trump, tiger woods.. all these guys work over 12 hrs/day. But they’are happy and they have lots of fun. They can at any moment take a month vacation if they. And sometimes you will find people reach the top then fall flat, just like in any industry. for example: MC Hammer, Mike tyson, many artists… They know how to get on top but when they get there, they can’t hang. Now it’s time to role your sleeve and play with the best of the best. And if you never had a passion for it to begin with, you are playing the wrong game. You will fall flat on your face. It does not matter how high you get.

  19. Tony permalink
    November 11, 2010 5:30 am

    Sean – not only did he leave the mentor-ship program of WWDB he abandoned his ENTIRE downline, yes abandoned them. This is a business that is built on trust and relationships and what does abandoning your “team” tell anyone about your trustworthiness or character. Dean is a slimeball, pure and simple. He left his entire download for his own greater good and ego of being “the guy on top” so that everyone worships him, just like he wanted in WWDB. If you were around him as much as we were then you’d know that.

    Mozart – Believe me… WE know that when you reach that level the work just begins bc we’ve seen it first hand. But you’re missing the point… what WWDB teaches and preaches is the freedom you get of not having to work. They get thousands of people hyped up on not working, etc when we know that you’re never really “free” like they sit on stage and preach. You are doing more work, in my opinion, than having a regular job. Granted, in ways you may be free, in a monetary sense (although not always, even at those levels), but the fact that you are always at upline board plans, doing your own plans, going to seminars, major functions, etc, you are doing more work than a regular non-Amway person.
    So yes, you do have more responsibilities like an Oprah, Bill Gates, etc, but it’s sickening to hear them preach to the newbs and everyone of how much FREEDOM there is at the top when it’s totally not true. And even if you build it big and want to retire and stop building the business so that you could actually be TRULY free and not deal w your business anymore… then WWDB hounds you day in and day out, makes you feel guilty everyday about it… just ask Scott & Chris Harimoto from Hawaii.

  20. November 11, 2010 8:02 am

    The freedom is not stop working. That’s insane if someone would think that once you reach the top, you would stop working. What they teach is that you would have the freedom to stop working for someone else. Control your own destiny. You need to understand that you need to duplicate yourself like the yager family. Dexter yager don’t have to do a lot because he duplicate himself. On another note, if you reach the top and you make a few millions dollars, in my opinion that’s enough to buy you freedom even if you don’t have the strength to continue building the biz. There no need to go crazy buying all kind of crazy things instead of having your money working for you. Successful people work harder then average. Everyone knows that, it’s true in politics and in the private sector. It’s always going to be that way because they average relies on you to create for them. The average does not want to think, they everything to be ready for them and they will pay top dollars for it. Only 5% of people in this world can be successful and maintain that level of success even after they leave this world. We complain too much, and blame others so much for your failure. You have to make a choice. Are you a 5% or 95%? I understand what you say about he quitting on his downlines, it’s part of life. Some of his downlines should be ready to spep up and take over. Just like when work for a private company, if the president quit or dead, the vice president must be ready to step up and get the job done. There is no time to complain and whine. Your upline is your mentor, not your God. If without your upline you can grow, you are not a leader anyway, you matter well go back to your day job and follow your boss around.Kobe Bryant does not need Phil Jackson to do his daily work because he’s a leader. The other players on the team need Phil to push them because they are followers. That’s the different between a LION and a CHEEP

  21. November 11, 2010 8:11 am

    Are you a LION or a SHEEP or at least a a sheep that wants to become a lion

  22. CGC permalink
    November 11, 2010 10:01 am

    “Are you a LION or a SHEEP or at least a a sheep that wants to become a lion” You sound like a brainwashed sheep. I’ve never heard a real business person talk in such empty platitudes.

    “Dexter yager don’t have to do a lot because he duplicate himself. ” Or maybe Dexter Yager don’t need to do a lot because he’s at the top of a pyramid, and though he adds no value, all those sheep under him keep sending up their wool.

  23. November 11, 2010 11:25 am

    I like the fact that you think I am brainwashed. Every human is brainwash. That’s we are the source of our association and our environment. What we hear and see, we become. Dexter yager is the head of his organization, the CEO of the company is the head of his organization. Are you the head your organization? If you are good for you. Maybe you are a lion. A lion is a leader that leads a team to success. A lion never calls himself a lion. Others call him lion. I can’t call myself a sheep or a lion. I can’t judge myself. But I would love to lead my organization to success, and share the success with all my associates. That what most head of an organization does.

  24. Tony permalink
    November 11, 2010 12:19 pm

    Mozart is obviously still in the forest because he can’t see the trees. He’s still one of the countless many that are still in the dream phase of Amway… and Dexter Yager’s group (not even WWDB).
    You say it’s insane for someone to think that once they reach the top that they’d stop working, but yet go on to say that once you make a few million how you could stop working.
    And PLEASE do not sit there and try to preach to us about how the system works… we’ve been there, we’ve seen how it works and we’ve been smart enough to know it’s a sham for 99.9% of the population (remember, I were personally sponsored by Dean Kosage himself so I think we have a pretty good insight as to how the system and big pins REALLY work).
    Your examples make no sense about CEO and successful people, etc… you’re just regurgitating your upline.

    The facts are the business does give people a dream and can (that’s a big CAN) make people better overall people with the positive books, functions, etc. However, big pins do NOT have the freedom of time. Do they work for another person? No, not necessarily, but they do have to work for the downline for their upline and for themselves, so it’s not like they preach on stage about being able to do whatever you want, whenever you want.

    And the “are you a lion or a sheep?” comment… you are a sheep because you are just following everyone else in the business… same comebacks, again regurgitating what you hear from your upline.

    And this is about Dean Kosage. Dean quit on his team… that’s the point.. it has nothing to do with that being life and now his downline has to step up and take over. This is about Dean crapping on them, not about how it’s now their job to overcome the douchebag that just reamed them with no lube.

  25. November 11, 2010 1:12 pm

    You talk a lot. Answer the pholliwing questions: if you decide to go diamond in Amway, how long would that take you?
    How much do you think a diamond makes per year?
    However long that takes you, do you have a better to generate that kind of income now?
    If yes, r u working on it? Seriously
    If you are good luck.
    If not. You might find yourself doing the same thing that you are doing now 5 years from now. You might get a raise or 2, a promotion, change company… But inflation is guaranty to go up at a rate of 1% per year, at least that. If one person accomplish something any one of us can do it too. Amway generates 1000s of diamonds. That’s enough proof that u or I can be a diamond or we can find 1000s of reasons why it does not work. For everything in life there are people that are going to justify it does not work and there others who are going to make them work. If you justify why something does not work, you will never do it. Just like some people justify that flying does not work, they don’t fly. Driving us too dangerous, they don’t drive. Boat does not work, they don’t sail. If you dont think Amway does not work. Just don’t do it. Millions of people fly every day, billions of us drive everyday, millions of people sail everyday, thousands of people are becoming diamonds every year. Airplanes works, cars works, boats works, amway works. Ask yourself this last question. Is it me or is it Amway? One of the hardest thing in this is for people to point fingers at them instead of others. People go to school, then they can’t find a job, they say school does not work. They try for the NFL they don’t get drafted, they the NFL does not work, they don’t do their work, they get fired, they say the company is a joke, they try Amway, they quit, they say Amway does not work. Everything works except that not everybody works

  26. Tony permalink
    November 11, 2010 2:14 pm

    I read the first 3 lines of your response and then decided to stop. First either you are a child and just can’t spell or you don’t have a grasp on English. Who spells “following” with a “ph”? And I do believe it’s YOU who is the one rambling and interjecting your Amroid ways of thinking into a forum about Dean Kosage and how he screwed WWDB and his downline.

    But now you are talking about where I’ll be in 5 years? Boy, that sounds like the opening line of a prospect or a one-on-one. I have a question then… is this Amway?

    Haha… trying to talk to me about being a diamond and even if it take 20 years how better off you’ll be. How about you look at the stats of how many people who are in the Amway business actually become Diamond. And if your argument is all about how much $ you make at the end… then you’re shallow and a moron. Regardless of how much I make per year at my J-O-B… the time I don’t have to spend at rallies, functions, board plans, ordering, etc and mentally not having to be married to keeping my Amway Radar on 24/7/365 trying to get anyone I meet to see a plan or become a downline… I’ll trade the freedom from being in the Amway business for a $40,000 a year job any day. You’re tied to Amway and Dexter Yager… your every waking moment is about building a business, everywhere you are you are in Amway mode… the grocery store, the waiter at the restaurant, your dentist, your co-workers… your mind is ALWAYS in Amway mode and like I said, the freedom of not having to think about that 24/7 is so more freeing than being a Diamond millionaire (by the way, making most of that money from your speaking circuit and tool sales).

    I want you to revisit this forum a year or two from now when you’ve finally gotten out of the forest so you can see how right we were. Right now you are JUST A SHEEP in the herd.

  27. November 11, 2010 8:26 pm

    Success is not for everybody. Remember that at your 40,000/yr job you are working a successful man who works day and night to create a job for you while you’re watching oprah and judge Judy from your TiVo. A sheep is someone whose always pointing fingers, have an excuse for everything, it’s never his fault, others have to create for him, always working for someone else, they are followers, zero avcountabily, they only thing they know how to sell is time but not their tv time. I have not had a job since November 2008, I make 6 figures income for 3 straight yrs, no boss, no excuses… But I don’t know how to spell following. That’s for Sheeps to do, they pay attention to details, things have to be perfect, the world has to be perfect. Why is it cold, why is it hot, why why why. Sheeps are good candidates for jury duty. They like to discuss, criticize and judge. If I am a sheep, I am an unusual one. How about you sir. Are u a sheep or a lion?

  28. CGC permalink
    November 11, 2010 8:59 pm

    Poor Ms. Saint Cyr, she hasn’t the time to even watch TV, let alone bother with spell check or come up with a complete sentence that doesn’t sound like a rehashed line from some second rate motivational speaker. And pay attention to details, like the truth? That’s for sheep!

    Is she not working for someone else? Her uplines or Mr. Van Andel and Mr. DeVos?

    And there’s more to life than the number of figures in your salary, there is time well spent and feeling good about what you do. Not everyone enjoys hassling everyone they meet about joining their business, nor do they feel so great about getting someone into something that most likely will lose them money. But carry on Ms. Saint Cyr, trolling for recruits on internet comment boards and wherever else you may prowl. Keep feeding the lions you long to roam with.

  29. Tony permalink
    November 12, 2010 5:16 am

    Did I say I made $40k a year… nope. I said I’d rather make that $ and still have my own time and my own freedom to do what I want… not be subjected to having the Amway mentality 24/7/365 as you do.
    And you can say whatever you want about how much you make, it’s the Internet and people lie and make up stuff just to try to prove their weak points (starring at you!). Hey, I make 7 figures a year and have not had a job since October 2008, so I guess that makes me a way better than you in your description.
    And you’re completely wrong about what a sheep is. A sheep is one that is a follower and can’t think on their own… who is a cookie cutter of the environment they are a part of… ie- the Amway business… YOU!!
    Your posts make you sound like you’re so great and entitled to be a wonderful person based solely on you being in the Amway business and how successful you are. Sorry, but that is not what life is about. It only shows your character and how you believe you’re on a pedestal, trying to preach to anyone that will listen. You are nothing in the grand scheme of things, even if you do make 6 figures (which I know you aren’t making 6 figures in the Amway business – I know this bc of your still immature ways of trying to defend the Amway business bc if you were making 6 figures in Amway you’d probably be a Ruby or Emerald and everything you said shows your new to the business and again, just regurgitating everything you hear from other… ie- can’t think for yourself).
    Go build your awesome dynasty in Amway… no one else in this world will really even know or care of your lion “prowess” because as you have clearly shown, the only person who thinks you’re a lion is you.
    And as you so eloquently wrote yourself “A lion never calls himself a lion. Others call him lion.” BURN!!! You’re a self-proclaimed lion, which makes you a SHEEP! Keep believing the lies, they obviously make you feel superior and good about yourself. Someday you’ll realize you aren’t as great as you think you are.

  30. November 12, 2010 8:05 am

    I did not mean you directly that makes 40k/year. I never called myself a lion. A lion is a leader of a big organization, private or public sector. It does not matter how much money you or I make. That’s not what makes you a successful person. There lawyers, drs that makes millions but have a stressful life. That’s not success. I have not been in Amway for a long time. I don’t make all my money thru Amway. I own an insurance agency in Brockton Ma. I know there lots of money to be made thru Amway. It’s not easy because all the people that fail blame Amway, and others pick up on that. Amway gives you 30% to sell, if you help others sell, they will give you a bonus. If you compare Amway products to wholefood market or GNC store, Amway is cheaper. If u r in a bad team, you think is bad, your team is bad. Just like a bad team in the NBA, a bad team in the NFL… You are great guy, there no need to bring anybody down. We are just sharing ideas. Good luck in life. We can agree to disagree. If you ever in the Boston area, we can meet for lunch.

    To CGC. I don’t how you think I am a woman, Mozart is a man name.

  31. Joecool permalink
    November 12, 2010 9:32 am

    Mozart, can you name two or three people who make tons of money from Amway and get to sit back and relax and do nothing to get that income?

    Not everyone who fails blames Amway. Many blame their crappy uplines.

  32. Tony permalink
    November 12, 2010 9:51 am

    In addition to what Joecool says I don’t blame Amway or WWDB or my upline. My upline Emerald was working directly with me, so how could I fail? I blame myself mostly. I think it’s a culmination of everything, but the fact is I didn’t put in the work or feel it was happening for me. Amway obviously has proved it works bc they are a huge company, the system works because there are big pins that have gotten it to work (mostly the ones that got in on the system decades ago before Amway got its bad wrap). But there are many people who actually do take responsibility themselves as to why Amway didn’t work for them, and I’m one of them.

    Like I said… there’s still blame for Amway… not a great payscale for what you have to do… blame for upline… motivation tactics used don’t work for all, greedy, really only in it for themselves and not about helping others, etc. But all in all its yourself you have to look at in the mirror for it not working. There are much better MLMs out there that don’t have the bad wrap Amway does that you can get in on earlier and make $, that also have much better kickback/payback scales, not this 3% residual bonus or small amounts of PV.

    I’m getting off track again… but the final word is if you fail you mostly have yourself to blame.

  33. November 12, 2010 10:11 am

    No joecool, I don’t know anybody that makes a ton of money and does not work hard everyday. I don’t thing that exist. To maintain the level of success in anything, one must keep working. It’s not working hard, it’s working smart and doing something that you have a passion for, and you so it on your own terms and conditions. It should be fun and energize or it’s not worth it. I have learn so much thru Amway that even if I don’t find success, I will have all the tools to create it somewhere else. You can say that you don’t have to join Amway to develop yourself. While you might be right, most of us don’t go out and buy tapes, go to biz conference, read motivational books to develop themselves. Most of what we know come from our education system, the government and the media. I am very glad that I joined Amway. You are that some uplines are not up front with their downlines, which is not right. The downlines are responsible to do their own research. It the same thing for school. Some people back to school, get a $30,000 loan only to find out that there thousands of candidates that have the same certificates for yrs and can’t find a job. You can’t blame the school. You make bad choices, you learn from it and move. No one make the perfect choice everytime. Thanks to all of guys for sharing your thoughts. I learned a lot the past few weeks about Amway and biz in general. I am very glad that I had a chance to share my thoughts with group well inform guys like you all. We will definitely stay intouch thru thi blog. I will let you guys know a year from today how my Amway biz is. Good luck to all of you: Joecool, CGC, Tony and the rest. This might be my last post for 2010

  34. November 12, 2010 10:25 am

    Base on your last post Tony, I agree with you 100% that is so true about GREED. There might better MLM out there than AMWAY. But you have to pick and stick to it.

  35. Joecool permalink
    November 13, 2010 12:04 am

    Mozart,

    I just need to know why you think a business where more than 99% of the people lose money is a good idea? Seriously. Even those who work hard get hosed.

  36. November 13, 2010 5:45 am

    Just like a basketball or a football player knows only one out of a thousand can make it to the pro. Once they believe they can, they work hard at it. Some of them made it, some of them don’t. In Amway one out of 100 will find some form of success. I believe I am that “one”. When Obama told people he wanted to become the next president of USA. The world thought he was crazy, but he believed. I know it won’t be easy, I will be a diamond by 2013, help a few people make thousands if not millions. Then I will deal with the problems when I get on top. Maybe I am the guy whose gonna fix their system.

  37. Tony permalink
    November 13, 2010 7:53 am

    C’mon Mozart… 1 out of 100 find some sort of success in Amway? Where do you get these numbers? Then again, I guess it depends on what one defines as success. Is success becoming a better human being by reading the positive books, being about more positive people? Maybe. But if you are defining success monetarily, then no 1 out of 100 isn’t even close to realistic.
    And I’m sorry, but being Diamond by 2013 probably isn’t realistic. Who is your directly upline? How often do you have direct contact with an upline Emerald or better? If you’re not meeting directly with them at least every other week then Diamond isn’t in your near future.

    The thing here Mozart is that several of us on posting here have been right where you’re at now. Big dreams, big plans to help hundreds of others and be Diamond in 5 years, if not sooner. You can have the biggest dreams and goals and put in the work day in and day out and it may not work out. I personally sponsored a go-getter back in 1994 who has since been working with Dean Kosage. This go-getting married another go-getter like in 1997. They’ve been working the business hard weekly since about 1998 and working directly with Dean up until he jumped ship. You know what level that go-getter, working every day on their Amways business couple got? They were Platinums.

    So 16 years in working directly with at least an upline Emerald, putting in the work, the plans, etc and they are at the worst possible level to be at… Platinum. Which Tom’s post above was so eloquently put… would be like Hades on Earth.

    Just imagine all the $$ they’ve spent on book, tapes, functions, and even moreso than that, all the time they’ve spent from being with their children, having relationships with anyone they’d like (not just other Amway people). Like I said before, Amway helped me become a better, more confident person, but that is about it… monetarily wise it broke me, just like it does to 98% of the people who join.

    I wish you the best in becoming Diamond by 2013. I hope you come back to this post then and tell us you made it. But I’m putting my money on that you’ll soon be someone posting the real deal life of Amway like we are by then.

  38. November 13, 2010 8:29 am

    My upline diamond has been in the biz since 1997, my upline patinum is a q12 since 2001. As a q12, you make about 50,000 per year plus a q12 bonus of 20k. That’s doing it part time with still a full time job. Even if one spends $20k in tools and functions, he still makes another 50k part time. A Q12 is a great achievement. Again you are right Tony, it’s a long short but it’s possible. Thanks for your support, I will definitely come back and share what I learn, good or bad. I talk to my upline diamond all the time, they stay over my house once when they were in town for biz, I work directly with a q12 platinum. I feel like I have an edge on those guys. It’s up to me if I want to put in the work because I am doing ok in my profession. That does not make it easy for me to be extra motivated. Motivation is the key to build an MLM biz.

  39. honesttalk12 permalink
    November 13, 2010 2:31 pm

    Mozart saint cyr & Tony-

    After reading a couple posts between the two of you here it likes you two could be the exact same person talking to themselves through a time machine. Tony has been in both seats and Mozart just the first stage.

    Mozart – The fact that the upline doesn’t discuss the profit % from tools in any forum with regular IBOs is a big deal because it’s indicative of the overall deception that is going on at the higher levels of the MLM BSM group. The main message is simply “if I can do it, you can do it… because you have access to this great opportunity just like me” but that isn’t true because their lifestyles are mainly prop’d up by BSM profits which you in fact do not share in.

    It’s not the same opportunity at all. And you’re technically not a “business owner” because if you owned anything you would know what % of the larger pin’s incomes are from tool sales. IBOs are just reps hoping what they are hearing is the truth.

    They justify their tool profit deception one step at a time, and before long their message has become a complete lie… hitting rock bottom when they try to use “God’s love” or “God’s blessing” (as Brad Duncan does) as a motivation tool to keep you involved and buying into their system so that they can flaunt a faux lifestyle and support their efforts to generate money at the expense of almost nothing.

  40. Joecool permalink
    November 13, 2010 5:44 pm

    1 or so out of 1000 make it to pro ssports? Yeah, but athletes know full well it’s a long shot. Some of them don’t play only to make it to the pros. Conversely, Amway is presented as a way to make money. That anyone can do it. The sad reality is that less than 1 in 20,000 IBOs or so ever reach diamond in the US. Even the platinum level, one can lose money by following the system.

  41. Tom permalink
    November 14, 2010 6:53 am

    Honesttalk12:

    Very well put! I have been a voyeur in over the past week on the correspondence going back and forth and glad that it boiled down to mutual respect of some sort…shows maturity, versus just shooting flaming emotional arrows at each other.

    At one point when I was ‘in the fog’ with an empty glass of kool-aid in my right hand I would have probably fought on this blog tooth and nail, but it took about 3-4 years to see enough “stuff” that made me open my eyes, mainly the upline I was working with (whom this blog is about). I’ve got a couple things to add to the blogs over this past week:

    1. I’m pretty sure Dean Kosage was removed from WWDB…now I don’t know that for sure, but I’ve heard conversations from Diamond and above pins…but who knows what is the truth at that level. It seems the large pins will ‘bend’ any truth to keep their business together or the $ coming in, so who knows. The word on the street was that he fell out of Diamond qualification over 2 years ago, but WW will let you speak on the circuit for 2 years to get back into qualification (you have to as there have been soooo many going backwards and not many new qualifying Diamonds). At the end of 2 years, WW gave him the boot. If any of you had the ‘pleasure’ of being around Dean, he has always wanted to be the ‘rock start’, which is fine, but I guess WW didn’t feel it was conducive to his group. I’ve had multiple conversation with some of Dean’s first directs that ended up leaving the business because of Dean, as well as myself and a chunk of my group. He got involved with some guys in S Cal, that seemed to be reputable (Jim Bunch etc) in the PMA/Life Coach arena and is leveraging some of them with his new ‘group’, Frizzle. I do feel bad for his group…WWDB has always preached, “don’t follow the man, follow the principles” and I can’t understand why anyone would voluntarily leave WW to follow Dean, who kicked his mother-in-law in the gut and who was very abusive to his ex-wife. The dangerous aspect of MLMs is they promote hero worship…they turn big pins into ‘rock starts’ (maybe Dean isn’t to blame..LOL)…and people will follow that lead and defend that individual to the death without even knowing the person…that’s a dangerous environment to create. Much like the sporting community and Hollywood enjoys. Did any of us really know Mel Gibson or Tiger Woods?! LOL…get my point?

    2. My other point is to back up Honesttalk12 post concerning the tools money that creates the lifestyle. I could go on about 4-5 personal situations that opened my eyes, but will just share this latest one. About 8 months ago, I had a chance to golf with a guy by the name of Bob Crisp. Bob was a 70s and 80s Triple Diamond (or something) with 15-20 Diamonds in his group. That house of cards all came raining down in the late 80’s early 90’s, but he talked openly about Amway etc. He was in an E Coast group. He said at the height of his business he was making 2 million/year…$500k of that was from Amway products, the rest was speaking engagements and tool flow. He did loved the Amway business and had nothing but respect for it, so I asked why hasn’t he gotten back in to build another group (as he has built a few huge organizations in other MLMs since). He flat out said he would in a heartbeat if Amway didn’t have the worst compensation plan of all MLMs out there. He laughed and said how amazing it is that people just sign up for MLMs and they don’t do the research etc.

    This post isn’t to discourage any IBOs out there as (and I don’t say this facetiously) you could be that 1 in 20,000 person that reaches the level of Diamond. I’m just sharing some truths that need to be taken when looking at these businesses.

    I credit WWDB for giving me a different perspective on steering my own destiny and the importance of owning a business, but that’s it. When I left the business in 2000, I often wondered, “what if”…for about 2 years. But then realized I had made the right decision as I’ve started 2 companies since and bought another, met my wife, had 3 kids and can develop friendships without any underlying motive 😉 I see couples in Dean’s business that were Pearl, Directs, and Ruby that have not moved very far in 10 YEARS! And I considered these guys as sharp as they come…know the system, were taught well by Dean, willing to ‘pump the pump’, had support at home etc etc. I often wonder where that trail will end…hopefully at Triple Ripple Diamond. Now that I think about it, I do know that the Ruby is now Emerald and a 2500 is now Direct….but 10 years?!! My, unsolicited advice…take those principles and the time/money you’re dumping into Amway and apply them to a ‘normal’ business…I know that is blasphemy in WW, but it actually works…build up a portfolio of companies and sell them…then you can actually retire, with out having to keep the motivation in your group or council your downlines’ marital problems…please shoot me!

    Good luck to any IBOs out there building!

    Anyhow…that’s all I got to say about that!

    PS I apologize for any grammatical errors as this was not proof read 😉

  42. WIlliam permalink
    December 6, 2010 8:25 am

    Mozart, I’m an IBO and I’m (somewhat) sympathetic to business practices. I do however note that you are using “40K job” as a slur. Careful. We’re not superior to others just because we’re in the business or making more money. Especially in an economy like this be careful about talking down in a dismissive manner to people and “their 40K jobs”.

    Also, one thing I’v noted about IBOs is that many of us are incredibily insecure in that we think Amway is the ONLY thing one can do to succeed in life which is not true. People have different goals and motivations. If they dont’ want to do Amway, it’s ok, and we should be fine with it. And I say this as someone who thinks in terms of income that there is no investment that beats requalifying as a Q12. Even within the business, some just want to get exposure to positive environment, others just want the products, others just want to go platinum, others want to go EDC like Dean-o. There should be room for ALL of that. Neither is “wrong”.

    For reference I’m on the east coast and part of the Britt LOS. I’ve been”active” for a few years, so I’m not a “critic”.

    Mozart, you do not come of as someone who can empathize or who has humility, two qualities that Rich, Doug and Steve have in abundance.

  43. December 7, 2010 6:19 am

    Thanks William for your comment. I did not mean to come down on the 40ks out there. I was there once, most of my family members and friends are there now. And I love them dearly. One of the things that you said I also like. Amway is not the only way to find success, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a person who does not want to try Amway or someone who tried and quit. The only concern I have is when people fail to accomplish something, they refuse to point the finger at themselves. This is not just about Amway, it’s about life in general. That’s one of the reason why the economy is where it is today. Everyone is pointing fingers at the government instead of themselves. Amway works, it works, it works just like you start your car on the morning. If your car does not start on the morning, don’t blame the car, blame yourself because it’s some service you were supposed to do and didn’t. Great post William.

  44. Joecool permalink
    December 7, 2010 9:14 am

    Amway works just like how a lottery works. Many people lose and a few win. Those who don’t win just didn’t select the right numbers. The lottery shows off their winners ot promote sales but you don’t see the millions of losers. Just like how Amway is promoted.

  45. December 7, 2010 9:45 am

    There is no work involve when playing the lottery. You just punch some numbers, then relax and hope to win. Thank you Joe. Now it makes perfect since why many IBOs signed in then go home and wait for a check. They think they’re playing the lottery. I have not met any Amway distributor that makes money by accident or by luck. Each on of them told me how hard they had to work to make it. All the sacrefices they had to make for success. Thanks joe for opening my eyes even more. On the other hand, when only 3 percent of people in this world are successful, it’s almost the same odd as playing your local “numbers” game. You are so right Joe. That’s why so many people play the lottery, they are looking for a short cut. In Amway, the road is however long or short you want it to be, but for sure, there are lots of bumps on the road before you can make it to the finish line. And once you make, your job has just begun.

  46. Joecool permalink
    December 7, 2010 12:33 pm

    More like Amway is a mouse on the exercise wheel. No matter how hard the mouse runs or no matter how long the mouse runs, he doesn’t get anywhere. That’s how the wheel is designed. That’s how the systems are designed. How many new diamonds are coming out of your system? *crickets*

  47. December 7, 2010 1:57 pm

    You are right joe. I could not say it better myself. That is world we live in. That’s the way the system is (the global system). Wether or not we do Amway. We are all part of the global system. Yes it’s not ez to be a diamond. But you can be a platinum q12 making $50,000/yr plus $20,000 extra to cover your expenses. As a part time IBO. My direct upline is a Q12 for 3 yrs in a row and he’s still keep his full time jod as a state employee. While most of us are running in circle, there a small percentage of us, I mean small making things happen. Not just in Amway but in this world.

  48. Joecool permalink
    December 7, 2010 2:04 pm

    The systems attached to Amway is a waste of time. The system costs OBOs more (collectively) than the bonuses IBOs generate as a result of the system. The only winners are those who sell the system.

    How dyou know you what a Q12 earns and how much they keep? Can you elaborate?

  49. December 7, 2010 2:56 pm

    As a Q12 you don’t sell the system. They may pay you like $500 to go speak at a local seminar. To be a qualified Q12, one has to maintain a 7500PV as a group for 12 consecutive months. Then you will get $20,000 extra bonus for that. Amway publish the list for the public. Again you are right lots of IBOs spend more money and do nothing. Again it has nothing to do with Amway. We as Americans we do that all the times. Go to school that never use, by extra car just for fun, buy “as seen on TV” just because it looks cool… You are right most of us want to build the biz, then we get lazy or distracted or quit. Once you do that, just like when quit school, or don’t like the new car you bought, you don’t get your money back. Why do people think that Amway will give them money wether or not they do anything? Amway works but unfortunately most people don’t want to work unless it’s 9 to 5 and they have a boss

  50. Joecool permalink
    December 7, 2010 3:34 pm

    Amway is supposed to be a business. Comparing it to school or buying a car is a silly comparison. And the fact is that most IBOs, even those who do a lot of work, don’t make money. The tools and functions are just leeches on the Amway business ans is the root of many problems associated with the Amway business. By the way, if I buy a car and don’t like it, I can still sell it for something. What’s your Amway business worth?

  51. December 8, 2010 6:49 am

    I would for you Joe to explain to me why you think the system is the problem? Before you sign up, your upline tells you that there is a system in place that cost about $100/month. With the system you can accomplish your dreams faster but it’s optional. Without the system, you can still build your biz, we still have lots of free open meetins, one on one sessions, phone conferences, workshops. Etc… All these are free. We can even lend you books and tapes. The only thing is, you can still make lots of money but if you are not part of the CORE system, you will not qualify for extra bonuses. The system is created by emeralds to diamonds they can profit or take a lost just like in any biz. Explain to me what’s wrong with that? I have people in my team that are not in the system, my upline and myself work with them on a regular basis. We understand that not everyone can budget $100/month extra. We help them make some then they can use the profit for the system

  52. Tony permalink
    December 8, 2010 7:04 am

    Mozart… I’d love to see your answer to Joecool’s question before you go asking him a different question and changing topics. You were comparing how IBOs spend $ on the “system” yet do nothing. Then you somehow compared that to buying a car for fun and getting nothing outta that car.
    So Joecool replied that at least when you get a car you can sell it again (thus getting partial reimbursement back for the time and $ put into it)… so his question is still on the table… what’s your Amway business worth when you’re done with it or decide you’re done putting your time & $ into it?

  53. December 8, 2010 8:06 am

    Of course tony, just like you can sell a used car, you can also sell used books and CDs you get from the system. People sell them all the times on eBay and amazon. Of course you can’t sell functions and seminars those are informations and trainings that you get to use in your everyday life. Just like you can not sell a university course you took that you don’t feel you need in life. In Life you make choices and blame no one but yourself. Just because something did not work for you, it does mean that thing don’t work. Amway works and it does for 1000s of people just like you and me.

  54. Joecool permalink
    December 8, 2010 9:16 am

    You can sell your used tools on ebay for pennies on the dollar. I have never heard of anyone getting refunded on a function. Mozart, how can an IBO spend only $100 a month on tools? If you attend major functions, those tickets are $100 and up, not to mention travel costs. Many IBOs need to fly to get to major functions.

    Just add up tools costs. Voicemail $30, standing order $36, or you may get cds cheaper but you would have to pay $50 a month for premier membership before you get cds for $2.50. Book of the month $10, open meetings, website fees. Plus you need to buy additional cds as you can’t listen to the same ones day after day. There’s no way you can run your business on $100 a month to cover your tools.

    Then factor in that most IBOs get only $10 a month from Amway and the losses mount.

    As I said, you buy a car that you end up not liking. Well, the car still gets you where you need to go and you can still sell the car for most of your initial cost if you haven’t used it. If I ran a McDonald’s and paid the big upfront fee, I could still sell the business and get back more than I initally invested in it. Real businesses build equity. Try selling an Amway business. You’ll get next to nothing just like when you sell used cds and other training materials. Just go look on ebay and see for yourself.

    Also, if you could sell your Amway business, why are there diamonds to quit and resign? Why didn’t they “walk away” and collect residual income or why didn’t they sell their businesses? The answer is obvious but you don’t want to admit it.

  55. December 8, 2010 12:07 pm

    The question I have for you when where you in Amway? all those cost you mention don’t exist. There is no Voicemail cost, there is no website cost, you don’t buy any extra CDs. If the function is far away, you don’t go unless you’re at platinum level. $135 cost for a function is only per quarter. When you add up all the cost associated with the system. It cost you $100 to $125/per month. Call any active Amway distributor, they will tell you. There are exceptions. If you live in an isolate area where the closest function is 500+ miles away, you have no upline in your area. Well of course it will be harder for you to build an amway biz. But on the flip side, it’s a big opportunity for you at the same time because it means Amway has not yet develop a big enough group in that area. Most of everyone you would talk to would have no clue what Amway is. I have been in Amway for about 8 months. I have spent an average of $85/month so far. Because I live in the east coast and everything is close by. I never had to travel for more than 200 miles for a function and we always do car pool. Yes you are right some people do spend too much in the system because they don’t understand business and they don’t good uplines to control their expenses for them.

  56. Joecool permalink
    December 8, 2010 12:59 pm

    When I was an IBO is irrelevent because the same stuff happens today as back then. There is voicemail. It’s called communiKATE, or KATE for short. If you don’t have a website fee, it is because it is likely included in some other fee you pay like the premier club or whatever it is called.

    If you aren’y buying extra cds to give away and to listen to, then you are not a leader and you are not a serious IBO. If you don’t attend ALL functions, you are not CORE and you won’t succeed or gain any favor from upline.

    If you spend $85 a month on tools, you are still losing money unless you have attained 1000 PV or more. But even if you did attain 1000 PV, your downline are losing money.

  57. December 8, 2010 1:35 pm

    That’s the mistake that most IBOs make. They think if they don’t everything their uplines are doing. They’re not part of the team. In any business your investment should Be in line with your profit. As your biz grows, you invest more. Not right off the bat. And also to be in biz, u need to think like a biz man. A month where you have a net lost in your biz can still be positive because biz can grow and have a net lost because you invest the profit back into the biz. When you buy tools for your biz, you go to functions…. Those are not lost. They are investments. When you work for company X, they pay for you to get training, go to functions… They invest in you. Because it’s their company. In Amway, you are company X, if you don’t invest in yourself, who should do it for you? You think a big company is not going to train their employees because a someone will make money on books and functions? Why do IBOs think that books and functions should be free? it’s because they have the “employee” mentality. When you work for a company, you pay for the training indirectly because they only pay you about 1/4 of what you work for. They control your paycheck. In Amway you are in control. Thats where the problem is. Most of us, dont want to be in control of anything, never mind a biz.

  58. Joseph "RhinoXeros" Thorpe permalink
    December 8, 2010 1:52 pm

    First off i would like to end all this debate and add some insight into the so called “fog” that surrounds Dean Kosage. My name is Joseph Thorpe or better known as RhinoXeros i am a freelance CG Artist and Web Developer and i am based in San Diego, California. I was first introduced to Dean by my girlfriend who was at that time roommates with Deans girlfriend. Upon our first interaction with each other i sensed something quite odd about him he was dressed quite well and his demeanor was something that reminded me of someone who had something to prove. We ended up going out to get sushi that night and during the entire evening the conversation was all about Dean’s new loft on 6th street and f. Apparently he had just moved here from Seattle and had purchased two condos and had the walls separating them torn down to make one big condo. My good friend and another freelance artist named Tasso was the person who designed his loft. So that was our first meeting with each other and i would not see Dean for maybe another 2 years or something like that.

    So being a freelancer i’m always out and about in downtown San Diego better known as the Gaslamp. And at that time in my life i was super heavy in the torrent scene or pirated software matter of fact i had an image built up that i could get you anything you needed and i pretty much could. Well one day at one of my favorite haunts Starbucks on 5th and f street one block from Deans Loft i ran into a Davin Fung who was going under the guise of Dean’s Personal Assistant however i would later learn that he was just a pawn or slave for Dean and endured some of the most hellacious treatment i ever personally witnessed someone go through(i will embellish on this later). So Davin sits next to me one day and being an IBO himself starts his spiel on me asking where i am in life do i have dreams and you guy’s know the spiel stuff. So i politely make it clear that i’m fine and all and am trying to get this job done that i had for a client which i showed him upon seeing my desktop Davin noticed i had all kinds of software Adobe, Office yata yata yata and that it was really expensive software and asked me what i did for work. So i addressed myself as a freelancer and also as a computer hacker Davins eyes lit up when i said this and asked me if he could get some programs from me. I said sure i charge 15$ for any program he then gave me a list and left.

    Well a couple days later Davin comes back to me with an external hard drive and i transfer over the programs he needed and helped him install them as some were kinda tricky to get working as they required a proper order that they needed to go into. Upon completion of my task Davin gave me 200$ something like 160$ extra what i needed for the programs i looked at him and said this is too much are you sure and he said you just saved me a crap load of money can i get you anything else and before i could say anything he grabbed my Coffee cup ran downstairs refilled the cup and bought me a sandwich. I said well thank you sir and we exchanged emails and phone #’s and that was that.

    We would occasionally bump into each other at coffee shops and converse about this or that
    and i noticed that he was always on the laptop or iphone and i mean constantly from the time this dude woke up to the time he fell asleep from sheer exhaustion the guy was like a cyborg. One time i was smoking a cigarette outside of an It’s a Grind and I heard this shouting coming from around the corner and i mean angry vile shouting we were in east village where a lot of crazy homeless people tend to wander around so i cancelled it off as some weirdo. Well a couple seconds later i see Dean Kosage on his Iphone with his ear buds in yelling “you stupid useless mother fucker i own you your a fucking retarded ass piece of shit do you hear me i pay you to do one fucking thing one fucking thing and you fuck it up get it done Davin and i mean now”. Well it had been awhile since Dean and me had saw each other and i had changed my hair cut and clothing style so he didn’t really know who i was but i knew who he was i have a photographic memory(i forgot 2 mention i am also a professional chess player). So Dean starts off running he was in jogging gear and that was that.

    Now the year is 2009 and towards the end of July i had been living up in San Francisco and returned to San Diego. My second day back i go to my favorite Starbucks again on 5th and F street. And there i see Davin like always hunched over his computer typing furiously and talking to like 5 people at the same on his Iphone. He see’s me and stops everything and ask’s me how i have been and blah blah blah. I say good just got back into town and stuff he then asks me if i was still doing Websites i reply yeah i sure do and right now i’m in a kinda hump why do u know some who needs a site he says yeah come by the loft tonight around 7 and gives me the code to the security door. So i show up and Davin being something like a butler opens the door takes my jacket hangs it up and walks me down this corridor that opens into the loft’s main room and there is Dean Kosage. Dean is sitting at his desk feet up looking outside at the people walk by and act’s like i’m a surprise he then greets me and snaps his fingers at Davin who like a puppy dog who has done something wrong scurries off and a few seconds later returns with Tea and cookies and asks if i need anything else. Kinda put off by walking into Hugh Hefners garage i say nah dude i’m good thanks. So Dean brings me up to speed on his website and how his previous developer ran off with out finishing the job and asks me if i can get it working and online for him. I look at the site and notice it’s like really cheesy and offer a new design to him that i had made in Flash. I was kinda hurting for money at the time and wanted to get a little more from this job then just a 2 hour revamp. Dean loves the interactivity i show him with my design and loves even more that i specialize in optimizing sites for mobile phones and my SEO i know how to get your site within the first 4 links on Google: ususally first depending on content. So Dean asks where i’m staying and how long will this take to do after some blah blah blah Dean say’s why don’t you just stay here so we can work together and i will pay you blah blah blah and you can have free access to anything you like. Being a super nice loft in one of the best spots you can possibly have in the Gaslamp not too mention he had business level connection to the internet like T2 connection i was like ummmmmmmmm sure dude sounds great.

    Well i get to work and start doing what i do Dean is constantly behind me watching what i do and commends me on my speed with the programs i use. I blaze through image editing in photoshop like a machine you learn how to do this when your a freelancer and really need production not too mention money. Well a couple days go by and Dean is like ok i like this i like that i don’t like this can we change this blah blah and i say well this is linked to that if we change this we have to change that too. He says i don’t care make it happen so i say ok this will take more time to complete he says whatever take as much time as you need i love it.

    So a couple more days go by and we get something close to a beta done and after some thought Dean scraps the idea and comes up with a new one i again say this is goin to take more time yeah yeah he says. Well Dean has to go out to i think it was Denver for a speaking thing and then has a trip to Orlando for some Achievers thing. over the course of the 1st week i am brought upto speed on what Dean Does. He’s an Executive Diamond for some company named World Wide Dream Builders. And has this group of people who oddly enough are all from Seattle and all live in San Diego but do not live like Dean doe’s. I later find out this is his Team and that the loft isn’t his personal abode but a meeting place for getting this weird mixer things going on. Basically it was designed to be extravagant to oooooh people that the team had found out and about and invited to meet with Dean.

    Another thing i should mention is that Dean Kosage likes nice things he drives a porche cayman that looks like a mini batmobile wears clothes that are custom designed only drinks perfect water smokes only the best Marijuana money can buy (oh yeah i forgot to mention that the loft just happened to be right above a dispensary the Kush Lounge) Which every night after around 2 in the morning i would close my laptop and we smoke pot and play rockband or watch shows on his big ass projector screen that can be seen from the street.
    Dean has no schedule he wakes up when he wants and sleeps when he want’s he mostly stays up until like 6 in the morning and then passes out on his couch. When he wakes up he grabs his surf board and drives to La Jolla to go surfing in the evening he returns to see what im doing and yells at Davin for like at least an hour. Dean treats Davin like a beaten housewife constantly on him about how he’s stupid and is not concentrating on this or that. Dean has no accountant Davin doe’s all his paperwork for him and for free. Davin washes his clothes books his trips to his seminars coordinates everything for him and schedules who is coming to the loft and oh man it’s crazy what this guy doe’s. (For anyone who thinks there is freedom related to this business or to Dean Kosage you are dead wrong and are smoking crack.) This is how Dean get’s what he wants he uses this weird image of being successful to entice people into doing things for him. I have personally witnessed Dean use his influence to have sex with a number of his downline and when i say personally i mean i walked in on him a couple times (one person i will mention is K. R. (EDITOR’S NOTE: Edited name out) who i feel mostly sympathetic for as she’s very nice and kind and has a great personality but is kinda like a groupie with Amway). Or have woken up with women leaving hair all messed up wearing different clothes yata yata. Ok can go on and on about Dean and his mystique here but im going to get to the meat and potatoes of why i posted this here.

    As i said i was given a task of designing his website (which i recently checked out and is down because he has not payed Godaddy for the hosting hmmmmm can’t afford to pay the payment is what i’m guessing). Also just to clarify i am who i say i am feel free to google RhinoXeros and the second link goes to Dean’s Website and if you read the cache u will see site design by RhinoXeros also my torrent status shows up too which is where i will begin this with. One night Dean Kosage asked me if i could really hack computers and websites i said yeah i don’t mess with peoples bank accounts though why what’s up. Well he googled his name and right there in plain sight alternating from month to month with the first link on google was a page about his divorce this is the link http://www.amquix.info/kosage.html Dean was so disturbed about this showing up when people googled his name that he wanted something done about it. I said well i can’t remove it from googles database cache but i can bring down the site that is hosting the page so if someone clicks the link it will never show up. But i begin to explain that the page is cataloged on Amquix and that removing just one page will bring awareness to something namely being your page is removed and could create more controversy vs just leaving it there as it just proves your like every other human on the planet and have a scratch. Dean becomes irate and starts to talk very very very very evil things to me and say i fucking hate the guy who wrote this artcile about me he’s a piece of shit loser who just follows successful people and trys to be like a Perez Hilton.

    He needs to be taught a lesson and says he would pay someone to make him dissappear. I deciding that maybe i can make some more money and just leave begin to play mental chess with him and tell him i have ways of making things dissappear how serious are you. Dean’s eyes light up like the joker from batman(which is kinda funny as Dean Kosage really does think he’s like Bruce Wayne and has said on more then one occassion that he want’s to do cool stuff like Batman does and then switches and says he want’s to be a part of something cool like robbing a Casino like the movie Ocean’s 11 Dean’s favorite movies are Batman and anything robbing stuff with a team). So as i said i start moving pawns towards Deans ego and declare that it will cost this much to do this or that and Dean pays me cash and i keep playing the game with him. I’m going to end this with yes i took the money and no no one ever got hurt because i am not stupid.

    I later came to find out through people like Bryan Gallingher and other people from his Team that Dean sold the loft and is now living in a downgraded beach house in Encinitas California with another user of the people a miss N. B. (EDITOR’S NOTE: Edited name out). His bullcrap companies named StarAlerts and Defining Moment’s (which Dean never payed me for designing the logo’s) have been shut down. He is more then a Rat he is like a Capybara i am really good friends with his Dad Ron who even he himself discredits Dean as a user of the people and is like that because of his Cocaine dealing mother who was a drug runner down in the florida keys and kidnapped Dean and his brother form him.

    Dean even acknowledges this but whatever all i can say is that i feel sorry for all the people he has fucked over and this includes his downline who a lot of them are really good people with good hearts but are as gullible as naieve children at church.

    My good friend Tasso who designed his lofts was never payed for his work only given a free membership to become an IBO of which he declined and like me was allowed to stay at the loft rent free for a couple months. I can go on and on and on and on and on but i actually have a life to get back to and just happened to come across this page while searching for something unrelated. when i saw that he left WWBD i became interested as to what he was up to these days and read a couple posts from people who are just throwing straws in the air. Here’s the truth on Dean Kosage ~ Dean is broke as a joke he had to return his porche and drives an xterra, The only money i saw Dean make was from his seminars charging 20$ a pop on head counts. I did see 2 check’s come from Amway in the total amount of 150,000$ which is far from what a so called Diamond earns. This bizness is bullshit and like a good friend of mine said once before you have a better chance of selling crack on street corner and not getting busted then you ever do as an IBO for Amway Global. There are a billion ways to make money in this world and this has got to be one of the shadiest ways i can think of. I for got to mention that i have been homeless in San Diego a couple of time in my life especially with the Economy the way it is super hard to get clients sometimes but even being homeless i was more Free then anyone involved in this business will ever be good day everyone ~RhinoXeros

    Editor’s Note: Edited out the names of two people mentioned in this article. Let’s keep the focus on Kosage.

  59. December 8, 2010 3:18 pm

    RhinoXeros – That was perhaps the longest comment ever posted on this site. I hope Kosage didn’t ask you to come looking for me. Very interesting background information you’ve supplied about Kosage.

  60. Tom permalink
    December 8, 2010 3:48 pm

    Amen RhinoXeros…that is the same “shade” of light that I had seen Dean in. It’s AMAZING how many sharp people can’t see the forrest from the trees. It took me a few years of having personal contact with him, but when it came apparent, I pulled the rip-chord! Interesting background on the Florida keys etc. He used to lie about so much shit, just to keep the image going…a very interesting individual. I’ll give him credit where credit is due…he is a master manipulator…which is a key component to building a MLM business. In the end, he will loose…conducting yourself in that manner will eventually catch up to you…World Wide evidentially had a belly full.

  61. Joecool permalink
    December 8, 2010 4:28 pm

    I wonder what Mozart has to say about this. It sounds like a truthful, albeit long comment.

  62. December 8, 2010 4:42 pm

    Thank you R. X for sharing this post with. Now I have a better understanding what some people could go thru if they end up having an Upline like Dean. It makes sense why these IBOs hate amway the way they do. Unfortunately Dean was just a bad Egg. I am shocked that he was around for so long. I am one of the fortunate one that happens to be part of a great team where your uplines all the way to diamond are very good people, lots of integrity, honesty…. I guess you do have to be a little bit lucky after all.

  63. Joecool permalink
    December 8, 2010 5:18 pm

    Mozart, most likely Dean is simply a “duplication” of his upline in WWDB. That is what they teach afterall. That’s why more than onw diamond in WWDB had their homes foreclosed and one of the WWDB leaders apparently had bankruptcy problems.

  64. Tony permalink
    December 8, 2010 5:18 pm

    RhinoXeros… long post, but WELL worth the read. Great stuff and like Tom said, having personal contact w Dean for years it was apparent the person he really was. This Tom guy is very bright… sorta feels like we’re somehow related, like a brother if you will.
    Anyways, it’s amazing to see Mozart’s response… still in the forest, thinking he’s the one IBO that’s got it all figured out.
    Mozart, it’s not just one bad egg… it’s the system. Dean was this way WELL before he was in a big pin in Amway (World Wide Dream Builders), yet it was his upline and yes cross-line that edified him to the world of Amway and all lines of sponsorship, swept events that happened (like the ones mentioned by RhinoXeros’ link) that are also to blame. It’s all about the $ and misleading the downline to believe that stuff doesn’t happen… to get you believing how great is really is at the top (actually isn’t). Good luck to your Mozart… I like your positive attitude and goals that you’ll make it… I hope you do and start to turn around the bad rap of Amway. But don’t forgot, so many people have been in your shoes and had the same thought, beliefs and goals you did (as probably even better business sense) yet have not succeeded thru yes, their own effort, but also have been let down and bled try by their uplines.

  65. December 8, 2010 6:37 pm

    I am in a different group, wwbd. The yager system has more integrity than that. That system is been around for 35 yrs. I have not heard or read this type of nonsense I see you guys post in this blog. Even the fees are totally different. It’s like this out there with you have to deal with people. A lot of us, if we know what our bosses do behind closed door, we probably would not work for him. That’s why when you become a superstar, you have to have a different set of values. Dean blew it. That’s one of the reasons why so many people can make it to the top but can’t hang. Because are to human. Too much temptation. When they say “mo money mo problem” that’s a true statement. To lead a group of 1000 or more people, your integrity have to be at peak level. That’s most people can’t maintain their level of success in many areas in life: politics, sports, business, entertainment…. If you go behind close door on top CEOs in america, you will find out that there lots of BS going on out there. Most of them know how to cover their mess under the rug.

  66. Tony permalink
    December 8, 2010 7:00 pm

    8 months in the business and you’re the expert on different lines of sponsorship. Of course the one you’re in is ALWAYS the best one.

    “The yager system has more integrity than that.”

    Get ready for it…

    Here comes that INTEGRITY!!

    http://www.amquix.info/yager_harasment_suit.html – Dexter Yager
    Charged with Sexual Harassment

    And this was just the first thing I found on one search page! Sorry Mozart… but you should take your foot out of your mouth now.

  67. December 9, 2010 4:29 am

    Trust me Tony. I know about Dexter yager. The man Is far from perfect. If I was a woman looking for a date, maybe I would not dial his number. But when it comes to network marketing he’s good. Just like tiger woods is a bad guy but if you want to play golf, he’s the guy I want to talk to. Same for Clinton as president, same for Kobe bryant as a basketball player. The reality everyone of us has a baggage of crap. We must all understand that life is not perfect, people are not perfect. You just to find out what’s about that person and that person strength. The government is corrupt, we deal with it. Bank of america is corrupt, we deal with it. Wal mart is the worst, we accept it. The pharmaceutical companies are killing people. The same group of people that don’t want to build an Amway biz because of corruption are working for those companies and or using their products everyday. Can you imagine if the ex executives from walmart expose whats going behind close door. Do you think any of us will do biz with Wal mart. Amway is the 43rd biggest private company in america. By nature, the bigger you are the more corrupt, less integrity. If Amway is that bad, I wonder about the first 42 companies. We are not even talking about the publically trade companies. They are the worst. They take people money and split it between the top executives of that company. If everyone try to cash in their shares, the company goes bankrupt. You can either play the game or someone is playing on your behalf. We are all part of a global corruption system. If you don’t do any research, you don’t know. But if you do your research u will find out there is no different between a pharmaceutical company and a drug dealer except that the drug dealer kills one person at a time the pharma company 1000s at a time and he has FDA to back him up. Go find out what your company is up to my friend, you might be surprise. Today you might go to work, your boss tell you, great job, you are the best, we are very happy to have you in our team. And tomorrow that same boss tells you that today is your day with us sorry. That’s what’s going out there right now. Those are the companies you trust?

  68. December 9, 2010 4:41 am

    You can tell that you don’t want to do Amway because it’s not easy; simple but not easy. But because it’s a bad company. Go do your research about companies that generate 10B dollars or more per year and tell me what you find out about their integrity. Whenever you have to deal with people left, right, up, down and center. It’s a tough game. Amway is a strictly people biz. That’s makes it simple and hard at the same time. Or you can make a decent living and chose not to deal with people until you die. That’s ok too. 80% of us chose the latter. It’s been that and it will continue to be that way until the end of time.

  69. Tony permalink
    December 9, 2010 5:09 am

    I’m just pointing out that your LOS doesn’t have any more integrity than any other. Again, you’ve been “in” for 8 months… you don’t know the half of it yet.

    Anyways, I think we all can agree on this blog that Mozart is a noob and is in the same frame of mind that we probably all were when we were in the business. Like the rest of us have experienced… “with time comes wisdom”.

    So as RhinoXeros’ post so eloquently did… let’s get back to the subject of Dean Kosage and what a DB this guy really is.

  70. Joecool permalink
    December 9, 2010 9:10 am

    Mozart, Tiger Woods for example, took a huge hit financially when his scandal was exposed. Bill Clinton was embarrassed, Kobe had to go t court to clear himself. Dexter just denied it and his groupies all believed him. Dexter was arrogant enough to make a speech where he refered to himself as God. Here’s the transcript:

    I love you like no other, my hand is on each and every one of you. I want you to forget your circumstances and build this business like you never have before. Your time is running out and there is much to be done for my Kingdom. Don’t worry about things of this world. I have overcome the world, so I can overcome any situation that you might have. I hold the universe in my hand. Do you not think I can hold you also? I am not a man that I should lie, so when I tell you I love you I mean it. When I say I will take care of you, I mean it. Just love me and trust me. Lay back I will catch you. I will be your cushion. Just come and sit with me and get to know intimately for yourself. I will put people in front of you. Trust me! I will change your circumstances. I will change your life if you will just let go and let me. Your time is coming. You are my precious child. Be aware of this one thing. Let it sink deep into your spirit that I love you right now, this morning, just as you are. Stand up, believe in ME. Be counted in My Kingdom and I will bless you beyond measure, your measure, not mine! Throw away the things that are keeping you bound up and I will replace them with the fruits of my spirit. Love, Joy, Peace, Gentleness, Kindness, Longsuffering. You will become a beacon for Me and I will bless you.

    Dexter Yager – Emerald Meeting, Heritage USA

  71. December 9, 2010 9:43 am

    I agree with you Joe that Dexter Yager is far from perfect. But it this who is close to perfect?
    If I worry about someone perfection or close to it, I would not work with anybody, not even myself unless I am in denial. But if I need some tips about building a MLM biz; Dexter Yager is good person to talk to because hi did build his organization from scratch. If anybody believe that Dexter is their Dog, that’s their mistake. If Dexter believe he’s God, that he’s problem. Lots of people just like Dexter believe that God speak through them. It’s anyone’s choice to whether or not they believe Dexter is God or their partner, their Pastor or anybody. What does that have to do with building a biz. You don’t have to take everything that is the system to build your biz. You take what you believe would work for you. There are people that don’t believe that there is a God that build big biz. Same thing with politics. Mistakes that we make, we want someone to be just like us to work with them except of course when we are looking for a job, then we can compromise. In this world, especially today, we need to learn how to work with others despite our differences. The group of us that are willing to do will be far ahead of the game. For example: so many rich white guys don’t like black people but they pick them to play in their professionals teams (basketball, baseball, football…) because they know these guys can play. Who cares they live in the projects, they have 5 different babies mama, they have tattoos all over their body, they don’t dress proper, they beat on their women, they do drugs and carry guns with no license… Who cares as long as they bring the bacon home. That’s how successful people think. If you want to be picky, your choice. You will spend the rest of your life looking.

  72. Tom permalink
    December 9, 2010 2:03 pm

    Mozart…I do appreciate your cool headed debates and a lot of the stances you take are quite valid. Here is my issue with a lot of big pins and the ‘chinches in their armor’. We all have made mistake in life, no doubt. Where I have one of the biggest issues with MLMs in general is that these organizations, be it WWDB, Yeager’s/Britt’s group, etc have always taught “don’t follow the man, follow the principles”, yet behind the doors many don’t practice what they preach. It’s as bad as Jimmy Baker etc. Dexter and his infidelities, Bill Britt the same, Dean Kosage, Brad Wolgamott and ALL his girls (now no longer part of WWDB), Samir Attalah, Brad Duncan lawsuits, Jim Harstard out of Minnesota (stealing $ from downline), Greg Duncan and his bankruptcy, all the divorces etc etc. Hey I don’t have a problem with everyone’s “chinches” as long as they don’t get up on stage and preach about family, values, morals, money management etc. It’s tough to build an Amway business in general, but when the normal prospect is going to go home and Google Yeagar, Britt, Kosage, Duncan etc…now you have to deflect and manage that as well as the “yeah, my aunt was in Amway 20 years ago” or “I’ve seen this before”. Can’t even imagine trying to sponsor people after they see Dean speak…LOL. I had one of his downline call me and ask if I would take off some of the true posts I put up…I felt bad, but I think it’s more important for the truth to be out there.

    Keep fighting the good fight out there! I know there are great people in the biz, but it’s always the bad apples that really stink it up. That’s what this sight is exposing…the rotten apple that got booted from WWDB. I learned a ton in the Amway business and the WWDB system…made me think more as a business owner at an early age.

  73. December 9, 2010 3:17 pm

    You are right Tom. Google is good and it’s bad at the same time. If people are making decisions base on what they read on google their lives will come to a full stop. Everything you google the negatives are always on top because people click on them first because they have more drama. All these guys you mentioned are bad but they also have some good character as well. But you will have to go thru all the negatives to get to that. If you google: Jesus, god, the US government, Wal wart…. You will go thru so many neg. Blogs before some good ones. It’s ok to know what’s out there to keep in mind and keep yours eyes open. Because there are 2 sides to every story. No one should make a decision base on someone else anger. That information can be bias, but it can be useful in the future. Everything that I learn here will help me build an Amway biz because I learn so much from you guys here in this blog. Now I know what to watch out for from my uplines. Unfortunately, like you said, there are people that would see all this and quit right away. They don’t even know that maybe they can make a difference in the biz. Sometimes what you don’t know can’t hurt you. Because of the Internet, we know too much too soon. It makes us make impulse decisions most of the times. We will never know if it was the right decision. Compare if you truly try it and it does not work, then you know for sure what the right decision is.

  74. Joecool permalink
    December 9, 2010 5:23 pm

    Mozart, don’t you see red flags with all of these WWDB leaders getting into these situations when standing on stage proclaiming to be holier than thou, saying Amway saves marriages, etc etc. Makes them hypocrites and liars, but not one of them has been held accountable.

  75. CGC permalink
    December 10, 2010 1:03 pm

    True that you may find something negative about almost everything, but there are some things for which the negatives override the positives. Amway is one of those.

    There may also be two sides to every story, but that definitely doesn’t mean the two sides are of equal value. One side may have lots of facts and evidence to back up their story, while the other has nothing but unfounded assumptions, opinions or lies. You seem to believe that the more you know the worse it is — ignorance is bliss.

    The real problem isn’t too much information, or even shady uplines, the problem is that there isn’t much of a market for Amway products when you take away the business “opportunity”, so you are doomed to be a pyramid of auto-consumers.

  76. Kris permalink
    December 10, 2010 7:35 pm

    Wow, what a bunch of nonsense. Reading through the comments, I’ve never seen so much BS all in one place. It’s all opinions, assumptions, and complete bull.

    Look. Sometimes people get too big for their britches. I don’t know the specifics of Deans departure, but I can say it wasn’t a big surprise when the announcement came. There are specific guidelines and principals that WWDB teaches and Dean was consistently operating outside of those boundaries. It was never anything super serious, just lots of teaching along the way that wasn’t consistent with the direction the rest of the leaders were going. Like any company, when one of the key players starts heading another direction and refuses to make course corrections, it’s time for that person to move on. That’s the case with Mr. Kosage. He had different ideas about the course WWDB should take and the the rest of the leadership didn’t agree. So, he decided to break off and do his own thing.

    I don’t know what it is about Amway, but it’s like a religion to hate it. Reason is rarely employed and honest, logical debate is practically non-existent. You people really need to find something better to do with your time.

    Regarding Brad Wolgamott: He’s a passionate leader, and certainly a hard worker. But he struggles with some personal issues that ultimately cost him everything. I won’t get into his personal life, but after years of the other WWDB leaders trying to work with him to get him back on track, he was ultimately asked to leave the organization.

    Brad’s and Dean’s departures are unrelated.

  77. Tom permalink
    December 10, 2010 11:11 pm

    Opinions, assumptions, and complete bull….hmm…how bout real life experience interacting with some of these ‘big pins’…that wouldn’t be categorized as assumptions. Go spend a week with Dean, you’d recant you statements. Dean and Brad’s departures were unrelated?….how bout they exposed themselves as not having the values and character they were preaching about “sooooo passionately”. WW HAD to cut them loose….the hypocrisy got out of control. As much tool/cash flow as those two were creating, WW could only turn their backs for so long. Neither one of them has a shred of character and are weak…that’s how their departures from WWDB are related. Sign me up on how I can follow their lead through life.

    The problem with all that have/are drinking the kool-aid is that they don’t want to hear or see the ugliness. I get it, it’s human nature, you’ve invested too much time, energy, and money…you’re out busting your ass prospecting, doing 1 on 1’s, going to functions, being ridiculed, taking “no’s”, reading, duplicating, teaching etc all in the name of creating a better life (time & money). Hey, it’s no fun when your upline Diamond or your “heros” in the business turn out to be schmucks. Are they human, absolutely, but these huge systems make a shit load of money by creating “heros” and larger than life individuals….it’s no realistic. Being a WW Diamond would be a nightmare…the glass house that you are confined to would get old, no matter your income!

    If you are a ‘stone throwing’, your glass house will shatter..ie..Dean K and his drug taking, womanizing, rock star wannabe, mother-in-law karate chopping ways destroyed his relationship with WWDB and split up his business. People actually believe he left WWDB…ha ha, I can only imagine how much income was snatch out of his pocket in tool flow and speaking engagements when he was bounced. Kris, for the record, here comes an opinion…I’m going to say he lost 60-75% of his income. “Dean had different ideas about the course WWDB should be taken….”, wow…you really believe that? Spend a week with Dean…he would invite you to “come and investigate my team”. Entertaining stuff!!

    Last point…some of you want to compare the corruptness/lack of values of some Amway folkks and the J-O-B world. Apples and oranges. Funny how IBOs want to compare the two when it benefits their argument, but spend 90 minutes in a board plan explaining how different an IBO position is vs the J-O-B. Good stuff!

  78. December 11, 2010 5:33 pm

    Tom you are right once again. We do compare jobs all the times with biz. We can still do even here. Yes you are right the good thing about job is that you are guaranteed to get pay no matter how lousy your boss is as long as they allow you to put the time in. But a the same time if your boss is lousy. For how long can you keep this job? But on the other in bi, z, you success has to do with the entire team success. You are taking a much bigger risk here, You must rely on others to do their share. At the same time, reward is endless if you play your cards right. It’s the same thing, You can keep your money safe in the bank knowing no matter how bad the bank screwed up you will always get .5%. Or you can take big risk at the stock market with your hard earn money and hope the big cats are not playing casino with it, drinking $5000/bottle wine, smoking cuban cigars, enjoying the ladies in vegas for $1000s/night, Cheating on their partners left and right…That’s a big risk you are taking. The stock market can be a much bigger scam than amway will ever be. But most fo us agree to have our retirement money there because it’s government regulated. What’s going on behind close door in wall street, you can put 2000 Amways in there and it’s still will not cover 1% of the BS that’s going on there. I would much rather risk my own money myself than let the top 100 companies in wall street making trillions on us. What happened with Madoff is just the beginning of the end of wall street. Worry about Amway instead of your 401K. Many of us believe if our government does not promote or support it, it’s not good. Big big big mistake. Top 100 companies have more control than the government. It’s called Lobbyist in congress.

  79. Joecool permalink
    December 13, 2010 9:12 am

    The stock market or a job still pans out better than Amway. In either a job or the stock market, there are no “tools” that cost more than what you earn in the job or what you invest in a 401K.

  80. December 13, 2010 9:26 am

    Of course there are service fees that you pay every month, every year in the stock market. Those are tools to maintain your portfolio. At your job, there are plenty tools: desks, computers, phones, printers…. Your boss pay for them for you so he can pay you pocket change. But in Amway, you pay for your own tools because you are the boss. No one dictate your income, you do. You can chose make nothing, a little, or a whole lot. Up to you.

  81. December 13, 2010 9:28 am

    Everyone – Let’s steer the conversation back to Kosage. Any off-topic comment may be moderated. There are plenty of other posts on the site that directly discuss tools, profits and loss, etc. Thanks.

  82. Tom permalink
    December 13, 2010 10:01 am

    Amen…I know it’s a tough stance to take in defending Dean Kosage, but it seems anyone that tries ends up steering away from the subject matter…go figure.

  83. Joecool permalink
    December 13, 2010 10:41 am

    Sounds like Kosage is of questionable character and apparently does not have untold wealth as many WWDBers want to believe.

  84. December 13, 2010 9:07 pm

    Kosage alludes to a recruiting system that is not taught by WWDB. Apparently they don’t know what they don’t know. LOL

    Amway is still the top dog in the arena, tho. they have the best branding campaign of any mlm, which is huge, but also, the concept is a “no-brainer” for anyone with the resources, determination, and know how.

  85. Joecool permalink
    December 14, 2010 8:46 am

    Is Amway a no brainer or for people with no brains? LOL

  86. December 14, 2010 10:20 am

    Be careful joe abou what you are saying. There are some great well respected, well known individuals that are part of the Amway family: Collin Powell, the bush family… And many more. I don’t these folks would stand behind the Amway and even build an Amway biz themselves if they did not believe in it. You want everyone to quit Amway because it left a bad taste in your mouth.

  87. Joecool permalink
    December 14, 2010 10:30 am

    Amway the corporation is very successful. However, IBOs collectively are a mess. Add up the tool cost for a group and add up the bonus for that same group. It will paint a picture you won’t want to see.

  88. aurora permalink
    December 20, 2010 8:00 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  89. honesttalk12 permalink
    December 24, 2010 7:58 am

    Aurora-

    You were definately in WWDB! From my experience in WWDB and then talking to others from similar BSM heavy groups, WWDB is one of the groups that takes their “mind control” type activities to the extreme for sure. It’s groups like them that produce people that label Amway Support Orgs as “cults”, I’m not saying there are or are not a cult but many of their leaders certainly push it to the limit.

    I was in the Duncan line, cross-line to Dean K. Much of it seemed to start with the Duncan brothers, which have taken their own bite of justice too btw. Brad D lost Wolgamott, Kosage, other larger up and coming pins, and probably 1000 of people … and Greg was simply exposed to be a complete liar, financing his faux lifestyle for decades only to have the lie come crashing in on him.

    Ouch. Almost starting to look Bernie Madoff-ish around WWDB.

  90. aurora permalink
    December 25, 2010 3:50 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  91. honesttalk12 permalink
    December 27, 2010 7:53 am

    Wishing and/or hoping either good or bad on someone doesn’t have any effect anyway … the point is they’re chickens are probably just coming home to roost.

    Oh, and along with all the time driving here and there and waiting for God knows which “leader” … don’t forget about spending 1000 of dollars (Functions, Vmail, Membership, Website, CDs, infosystems … etc) a year and all the profit going to the WWDB diamond leadership.

    Your group is so broke from buying everything WWDB they don’t have any money left to buy things that actually pay themselves and you profit.

  92. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 1:13 am

    I agree that wwdb is way off track but just as a fellow critic you same 3 guys seem to hate on Dean so much it really discredits you all

  93. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 1:22 am

    And tony I have watched your comments for almost a year now and it is apparent you claim to have been personally sponsored by dean but your anger is so strong it makes me think you have gay tendencies wasn’t that almost ten or more years ago you worked with Dean ? For someone to hold onto that much hate you either where his lover or you are lying. why don’t you boys stick to the real situations so you have more credibility. Plus you all act like you are not F@# ups , or made mistakes or , pissed people off. I truly do want to expose the cult like nature of WWDB but you boys keep hurting that cause because you seem to just like to hear each other talk on blog … it is like your own personal jerk circle. No one person is that off track , I knew dean for the past 15 yrs and I am no longer in the business.. but if tony you are the little scared guy I knew that was personally sponsored by dean , you got kick out of his business for bouncing checks and stealing your downlines money LOL … then you jumped over to another leg of brad duncans where you failed again .. so bro despite WWDB issues or deans you are a constant failure…

  94. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 1:33 am

    Oh and this tom guy , are you the hot headed red head who quit and left your downline who then moved on to platinum without you ? Are you not the guy who has a huge temper ( i mean it is sorta obvious in your post ) so I guess that is a stupid question. If we want to expose WWDB for its mind control and the pastor / adultery paul tiska then we need to be less like teenagers and more like professionals. Paul Tsika has comment adultery , drugged young girls , and had to leave town in a hurry after sleeping with other pastors wifes and daughters !
    I am more interested in that then trying to insinuate you boys know anything about Dean in the last ten years… shit you guys can’t even get the facts straight that his wife went to jail for abuse the night he called 911 … I know because I actually investigated beyond the scott larson fake post of what he calls police reports which actually where just the girls testimonies before they then heard the live recodings from deans call and took them to jail… you see why I am upset is for those of us trying to actually expose the wwdb faults you punks cost people like me time and energy when I track down your slander to find out you are just pissed off little kids form back in the day…

  95. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 1:56 am

    You might want to focus on the current issue’s and we could work together vs you all just trashing on people you knew from 10 yrs ago. Plus you all where little punks back then as well i knew some of you ( so don’t try to act as if you are not guilty ) Heck one of you got me in the business and I can blame you for dragging me into this and then bailing on me . Anyone can find a hater on anyone, especially from people who are in the public eye . Oh and btw Dean and all of you wanted to be a star, so do not act like it was just dean … and there is nothing wrong with that you fools … being a rock star would kick ass , so would being a basketball star ( my personal vision ) so would being a billionaire like richard branson.

    I have found way more people who appreciated dean and wolgs then hate them , in fact I even hear Dean is openly talking about how he is having to de program himself from WWDB , which you all hate but now you make fun of dean for leaving it ? Holy crud boys get your story straight.

    Apparently Dean says he left because he finally got big enough to sit on management team for a few years and realised he was not able to change wwdb ( the dream he always had ) plus after 20 yrs he realised he was creating dependancy vs giving people wings. So he walked away from his massive tool income and left all that money on the table ( you fools act like he made money ) come on boys get your facts straight. Now makes no money from cds, and or functions. I know this because I attended one of his events to check it out , In fact he cut the cost in half for his ibo’s ….He was very calm and felt bad about how long he himself had been under the cult like coolaid. He openly admits he loves to laugh and he also is quick to respond to a attack … something he has worked on for years … it was this strength that allowed him to go diamond but he says it is also his weakness…

    He even clean out his social circle of the little hero worshipers he had who had been living off him for years. So we might actually have a very powerful partner now is my point unless you boys are to much of a highschool crowd to think people can’t change in 10 years. If that is the case then you just once again will prove you are nothing but blog haters vs quality people trying to be bunk WWDB or things like it .

  96. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 2:09 am

    LOl you really allowed someone like RINO boy to join your conversations . once again when I tracked his story down I found out dean actually helped bail this guy out of jail to give him a second chance when he received a desperate call from a public court defender trying to find someone who knew joe. Dean knew of Joe from Davin and he let him stay at his downtown loft to get on his feet . after a few months he found out this drug dealer had moved in and dean had to have the cops bust in and kick these losers … once again this is all very easy to find… wasn’t joe in jail for child sexual crimes !! OMG people check out these folks before you agree with them ! you are so hurting our cause.
    Am I the only one who has actually followed up on all this crap you boys have posted on here ?

  97. Tom permalink
    December 28, 2010 3:09 pm

    Glad to have The cult on here now so that we have a legitimate source of information…a real Barney Fife with all his investigatory work on the ‘current issues’ at hand. Good stuff! I do appreciate the dual stance you are taking…with one breath you are working on exposing WW as ‘being off track’ yet the next breath is taking a very defensive stance of Dean…hmmm, interesting. Sorry if my personal experiences with Dean, reveled in this blog, are really thwarting you chances of partnering with Dean….damn that is comical! Boy, you need to go hack on another anti-WW blog…this blog is mainly about discussing our personal experiences with Dean. What’s your angle here…to expose WW or defend Dean’s moral compass? Sorry bud, but Dean was what made WWDB suspect…the lying, hypocrisy, no moral compass etc. I say that knowing we’ve all made mistakes, but none of us were paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to preached what we didn’t practice….hence WWDB. I myself am not hear to discredit WW…read my posts boy. Evidentially you haven’t, as I don’t blog angry…I don’t get caught up in the emotional arguments, but may write once/month to shed some of my own personal experience and I have always stated my time spent in WW, being exposed to success principles (mainly books) has, no doubt, gotten me to where I am today. Do you homework, go back and read….in fact, point out to me where my temperament is out of line.

    I do appreciated the ‘hot headed’ red comment….ha ha ha. You evidentially know me by my hair, my occasional temperament (being Irish and all) and first name. I did leave the business, but it was only because I couldn’t stand working with Dean and his ego anymore….as much as I enjoyed many aspects of the business and many of the people, I couldn’t go on. I moved on and didn’t spread the negative down line to my small group, who had been fairly insulated to the real Dean. We are all different, my personality didn’t jive with Dean’s, I wasn’t going to overlook the hypocrisy. The rest of my group would need to figure out their own relationship with him. Yes, one of my legs went direct…after 10 years of being in the business, 5-6 years after I had left. Excellent for them, but 10 years to Platinum?…ouch!!! I took my skill sets and with in 3 years developed a business producing over a million dollars/year and now have 2 more. Leaving was, hands down, one of the best decisions I’ve made in life…it opened the doors to really living life, not being controlled by WWDB propaganda. I only wish my old biz the best of luck…they see Dean in a different light that what did, we agreed to disagree.

    You pegged me, which is fine, I’m not here to hide. I’ve come to the conclusion you weren’t associated with my group because your Tony scenario was way off.

    Using a handle to disguise your real identity…interesting as well. In the end, the smell coming off your posts are that of someone who has been tasked by Dean run some PR spinning. “Let’s expose WWDB and lay off Dean…try to get him partnered up with us”…really?! I’d hate to miss out on Dean as a ‘powerful partner’…LOL. What do you think folks, should we ‘partner’ up with Dean and The cult? How bout this The cult….on your next post reveal your identity, and how you investigated ‘the truth’, besides stating you “tracked it down” or “apparently Dean says”. Post the 911 police call etc…shed some light. It would only make sense if we are going to move forward to build this alliance with Dean against WWDB.

    – the angry red head

  98. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 4:03 pm

    Seriously you are now concerned about my quality of information ha ha 🙂
    You have not worked or been around Dean almost a decade. If your goal was to help save people form wwdb then of course he would be a huge partner.

    oh and the public ( 911 call you can find ) as well as you can take more then 10 minutes to consult a actually lawyer to see that those are simply the girls statements ( which where dismissed ) on the spot ! As the police took the girls to jail. Funny you don’t here about that happening do you ?
    Gee the girls went to jail for just no reason huh ? yep the police just took deans word because he was a guy against 2 girls LOL … shit you really don’t know anything about police work then do you ?

    Or the fact he raised his daughter and home schooled her ( while you are still stuck in college memories ) gee can’t even give the guy some credit for that huh ? what a loser you are , especially to use the word hypocrite when you are the definition of it.

    What is odd is 10 yrs later or more you seem to still want to bag on Dean , when we all saw you act foolish and upset people as well. I have heard tons of stuff about you over the years and about your wife. You talk as if 23 and 25 year men have it all together and how Dean was morally off track LOL really compared to who morals are you now the police for that ? What morals did dean or anyone violate that you did not ? hum lets see you both dated girls , you both slept with girls , you both got people in Amway .

    So i get it the fact that dean just made more money then you is the problem and the fact that more people wanted to follow him then you is the issue ? could it be your anger issue ? why people did not want to follow or listen to you ? seems your anger issue has you blogging about a year of your life from college 🙂 Funny most successful people ( like you claim to be now ) would not even bother.
    I only recently got on here because I was excited to see the changes and new directions of some of these guys. But a injustice is what i noticed when I saw you and tony acting high school on here.

    How come it is ok for you to change and not Dean ? Plus you left Dean if I remember correctly right in the middle of him going through a divorce so I am sure he was not the most pleasant person to work with anywhere near those times. Who would be sometimes RED HEAD people have bad season , but of course only a rational person would be able to understand that vs a hot head like you.

    But I also remember you leaving one group to work with Dean and singing his praise and you meant it unless you lied to me back then. I seem to remember you telling me you where going through some tough times yourself back then and it wasn’t all about Dean. So take some responsibility dude. Two young guys will fight sometimes that is normal as leaders emerge.

    On and on tony Milan , you really think you know what happened with him stealing downlines money and bouncing checks ? Really because I was one of those people he stole from so don’t talk about a issue you where not even around for. Tony only claim to fame is he used to be sponsored by Dean and he apparently brings it up to this day to get recognition ( so lame ).

    My point is you all just like me got sucked into something we ended up not liking. Tom and Tony seem to want to blame dean for it all vs WWDB or taking responsibility. Worse neither of you have even listened to Dean or over a decade and yet you have a feel for his heart or new directions or his intentions…. that my friends is just pure Cyber bully crap. Funny how it is ok for you boys to apparently blame others for what you did ( but now you are the only ones who can have a change of heart ? )

    Your info and outlook on this whole issue is 10 to 15yrs old, my god I assume you both have grown up sense i knew you , well so has everyone else.

  99. Joecool permalink
    December 28, 2010 4:44 pm

    Did Dean home school his daughter because he could not afford private school? 🙂

    Is he qualified to home school children? 🙂

  100. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 4:46 pm

    You know tom I just saw your response about Dean and his morals to Kris LOL .
    Who are you Tom the new moral Police ? Dean never claimed to believe or to uphold wwdbs strong christian beliefs.

    What womanising are you talking about his wife never accused him of cheating.

    Do you mean as a single he was not supposed to Date ? Dean never preached that ? So are you now trying to say he was off base because when he was single he dated ? Or because he liked music and has a band and love to play guitar ? Wow what kind off weird ass judgemental religion are you a part of now ? You sound like you joined a cult now. what do you do again what is the name of your company ?

    You also act like you know anything WWDB , you where never even around the leadership of WWDB , you have no idea how it works or what they stand for or what they do not. Plus again it was over a decade ago. You never even made it to a level to get to be around the lowest levels of leadership in WWDB so little red head ( hot head ) give it a break some of us actually did build this big enough to get some better insight.

    You act like you are a expert on Dean ( you have not mentioned one nice thing about the guy ) or that you where just like him. Let alone again You have not even been in the same state as the guy for over a decade 🙂 Oh So again you changed but he can’t ( gotcha ) Funny he is in great standing with Amway and changing the whole guru based systems . He is all about acceptance vs control now , and no hero worshiping , and no more putting off life until you make big money or hit a certain level … so uh yes wwdb did not like him teaching this stuff .. but I thought that is what you guys all wanted ?

    So are you really about change or just about a hate site on a person ? Because that is just damn foolish and called cyber bullying. Only hot heads or cowards have little hate sites up on a person.
    your hot headed comments are obvious.

    Dean never fit WWDB’s moral police and knew wwdb was adding on all kinds of rules that Amway did not have. So he never preached as you suggest things on stage he did not stand up to. He never when i worked with him pressured any of his personal or wwdbs moral beliefs on me . In fact he told me that I needed to figure out myself what my beliefs where and to not get sucked into the stage talk.

    Later when I had a chance to make big money outside of Amway ( good old stock days ) , he told me to go for it and to once again not to get sucked into the mindset that he had growing up that you should only build Amway.

    He was very supportive and helped me break away from the dependency I had on needing to go diamond. He reminded me the goal was to get free and happy and that I could do that anywhere . There are hundreds of recordings of Dean teaching this way for years so your view is way old or simply a twisted memory of a hot head who still blogs about this 15yr later LOL .

    Dean walked away form a huge tool income and it is easy to see he was not kicked out bro, he decided to leave because of all the bullshit you are talking about. He thought he could change it once he realised it was wrong inside the business then he realised he could not .

    That is character , he has been a great dad , supported his crazy ex wife, and now is leading change.

    Only a real loser likes to talk about a 2 year experience with a person from a decade ago as young men are starting out in life. I am surprised Dean has not shown up at your door step and exposed your dirty laundry to your wife.
    You seem to like exposing people dirty laundry or past or just mistakes …..I should tell Dean who you are now. Of course he might not even remember you ha ha now that would be funny. Here you are blogging about him and he is not even aware of you 🙂

    but for now I will start by googling your wife and family to see what I can dig up 🙂

  101. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 5:04 pm

    @joecool
    He hired a full time teacher to teach his daughter and his pastors kids and formed school with 3 to 4 students in it . We would see them all at events . He even flew in his ex wife for a few events like at diamond clubs he even invited her new boyfriend and now husband , he and others talked about it on cds and we saw them on the videos. How do you not know all this is you are experts on Dean ? Shit this is old news

    Again obviously his ex wife started the whole abuse type claims after going to jail for abuse !
    But sense that one night nothing else has ever come up .
    In fact she was constantly seen with him once things cooled down after a year or so . Funny abused people don’t fly on vacation with people years later once they are in new relationships . So again guys bag on stuff that at least is accurate.

    Reality is she accused him of that stuff after getting thrown in jail to try and keep her kid and to save face. ONce she was no longer scared that dean would take full custody then she stopped all the accusations. In fact Dean even helped her to become a police officer after that , because he had to be interviewed by her sergeant . Dean was very kind about not de edifying her ( have you heard his cds where he talks about this ) he admits the marriage was rushed and neither of them where prepared for it . He also talks about how it must have been very tough for her to back out of the marriage with the pressure from WWDB culture to stay married… He takes full responsibility putting both of them in a very tough spot .

    dean openly talked about all of this stuff on cd’s as well as live while he was going through it , he was pretty beat up and humbled by it all it is most likely what lead to him completely changing his styles over the past 10 years. Often times this happens when people you know go through a divorce or some kind of tragedy .

    and if this is a a blog about Dean Kosage then I can give my experiences with him as well not just red head boy 🙂 Unless this is just a hate site…. then people should know that and report it.

  102. Joecool permalink
    December 28, 2010 5:32 pm

    Of course, many of the things said by WWDB diamonds on stage and on cds/tapes were later found to be not true……… 8:

  103. Tom's Platinum Leg : ) permalink
    December 28, 2010 7:28 pm

    Just to clear things up, we went platinum in 11 months from less than 1000pv to over 10,000. It didn’t take us 10 years. Prior to that time we were about as focused on biz for a few years as we were drinking and playing hoops or video games. Having said that, our Platinum income allowed my wife to stay at home with our kids for the last 6 years and it’s been a great ride for us. We too have built independent business and made good money outside of Amway.
    I’m just surprised that you’d go on negative Amway blogs and post things about Dean almost a decade after having any contact with him. There’d be nothing for you to gain except satisfaction in possibly hurting another human being (or beings).

    I’ve had people in my group go to this, and other sites and come back to me asking questions about it so in all honesty, it’s affected us at times too—and you sponsored us into this biz. I haven’t ever shown the plan 5 nights a week and rarely ever even 3. I bet I put an extra 10-15 hours a week (and sometimes far less) into something that replaced my wife’s 45 hour (6 figure) corporate recruiting job. Am I free? Nope. But it’s a pretty hefty part time income and it’s treated us very well. We’ve made great friends, are able to give back to the community and partner with local schools to help provide some good/clean energy drinks to kids and put on events in other arenas where we can raise money and promote some good products.

    I just wish people would get the whole story. I appreciate that your posts aren’t ridiculously negative like some of them–so at least you’re mature in that. But why would you keep tabs on a relationship you had that went sour after 10 years and still make an effort to ‘slander’ the guy. (not sure if that’s the technically appropriate term).

    You left the biz suddenly without even telling your group. The guy you were supposed to room with at a function in Portland, ended up crashing with us in our room as he had no idea where you were. (didn’t get much loving in that weekend) lol. I don’t even personally care about that, as that’s not the point. Point is, that could have been looked at as a “dick move” (technical term) too—the only difference was that you were a 2500 making a dick move and not a Diamond. (or emerald at the time/whatever).

    My relationship with Dean has been awesome. Have we argued? Yep. Have I disagreed with him? Yep. Has our relationship always been perfect? Nope. The difference was that when the dust settled, we came together stronger each time and over the years it’s developed into one of my closest friendships–in large part because we work through things when we have differences. (sounds like my marriage—or any other long term relationship for that matter…) Honestly I’m sure I have more personal experience with Dean than anyone else on this site. He’s been a true blessing to our lives as well as our children. I personally couldn’t think of a better person (for me personally) to have had as a mentor. His coaching helped us make 6 figures outside this biz and have a strong (not gonna lie…….allllllmost) 6 figure income in this business for several years.

    These sites always amaze me. It’s like a bunch of high schoolers capping on ex girlfriends and boyfriends. The only difference was that in high school we got over those things in a couple weeks—-not 10 years. Come on man—focus on all the good you have in your life vs one relationship that didn’t turn out the way you wanted.

    I’m sure people have had some really bad experiences with Amway and/or individuals who have worked with the Corp. I am also sure that people have had those types of experience in almost every other organization/business/church out there in this planet called Earth. The stories I could tell from my years in recruiting in F500 companies would make Satan roll over in his grave (well, you get the point). Those stories aren’t just exclusive to Amway. I’ve had 8 years (ish) more experience on a daily and weekly basis working with Dean than anyone on this page. And I’ve had a great time with it and continue to. Just thought the other side of the coin should be heard.

    I’m sure everyone on here has some motivation. Mine is to defend a friend (Dean) and tell my story, which happens to be positive. Just make sure you check the motivation of the others on here because I’m not sure they’re as “wholesome”. I’m not out to hurt anyone. (even my old upline….. : ) ) as I said—the spin on your posts were positive for the most part (aside from personal attacks on-or a grudge with-an individual you haven’t had any contact with for 10 years).

    Can’t we all just be friends? : )
    Oh, and part of the reason I posted on this was because Amthrax is a pretty awesome name. Definitely more creative than the others out there! Now I’m gonna go play with my kiddos! Sorry if this is long… Good night!

  104. The cult permalink
    December 28, 2010 11:06 pm

    hey tony you really feel you are qualified to talk about what a LOS vs a LOA is ? or you think that one LOS is not massively different then another one ? Why don’t you enlighten us with just how long you built the business and how big your got , we can see where your info and opinion is coming from.

    So are you not aware each LOS and LOA is left up to be run totally by the leader as long as they follow Amways rules ? I am excited that Amway now is exposing the leaders of LOA who are not running things right. That is why I am here to help the good people in Amway realise they are not at the mercy of their LOS or LOA. To stop the cult like followings .

    Saying one LOS is just like another is like saying one insurance agent is just like another. what dumb F thing to say dear god , were you dropped on your head as a child ? you have no clue what the heck you are talking about ( GOD ) what a easy ass target you are…

    Oh thats right lets keep the subject on dean , humm well he seems to have moved on made big changes in life and now is helping to de program many of the people who drank the cool aid like he did. ( Oh i am sorry tom , let me guess now it is not ok to have a different opinion on this site about dean ) because if I can’t stand WWDB or any of the systems creating sheep , then I also must hate dean … so now I have a double standard huh , what a joke you are.

  105. Tony permalink
    December 28, 2010 11:16 pm

    Anyone else that is reading The Cults “social justice” posts… just read how his story and accusations just run all over the place.

    First, I think it’s clear The Cult is well… just plain dumb & ignorant. You’ve been watching my posts for almost a year? Funny, this post started in June 2010 and my first post was July 2010… yep, that’s almost a year. More like not even 6 months. And suddenly now just decide to start commenting on this blog after “almost a year”? More like you just found this site and thought how much Dean means to you and decided to defend his honor. That’s so adorable.

    Seems like all The Cults “info” is second hand, stuff he’s been told by others or by Dean himself (who obviously would be totally honest about everything *Note sarcasm) and/or is just posting to put up smoke & mirrors to try to save Dean’s name by trying to discredit Tom and myself and our own personal experiences with Dean. Oh and had threw a jab in a Rhino too bc of his own personal experience w Dean. Seems like the only ones you’re going after here are the ones that have the most direct knowledge and experience with Dean.

    It’s great to see your initial post and trying to define who I am or who Tom is. I’m sure others would agree w me here… no one has held any anger over the last 10+ years. It wasn’t until recently when it was known that Dean was booted from WWDB that we started talking about Dean and why this happened. I’m sure you can do your investigative work and find out this is the only post we’re on. And I’ve re-read my previous posts… there isn’t anything over the top about Dean. Just what we witnessed. Mostly my posts are about WWDB and the business itself. Again, all you’re doing is trying to discredit our own personal knowledge of Dean, his antics and things he did around us and what we witnessed. Accept it or not, don’t care. Who we are, what we do now, whether we made it in WWDB or not isn’t what this is about, but when you have no foundation of facts to stand on, that’s your only option I guess (talk about lame). Our experiences are facts. All you’re trying to do is fight a battle so anyone investigating Dean Kosage will find conflicting info here, and that’s fine, but you can’t change our opinions of Dean Kosage and his character, be it last week or 10+ years ago… it’s merely a blog to talk about our thoughts and experiences and if you and/or Dean can’t handle it, too bad. But your own words of stating how Dean wanting to change WWDB it and of itself proves the ego Dean had/has. What IBO follows a system and makes it to the pinnacle of success only to want to question the leaders and change the system in which made him successful? Sorry, but that’s the Dean Kosage I knew and have heard about. And man, if Dean is this great guy now that you talk about, I sure hope he doesn’t know you’re in his corner fighting his fight because if he does then he hasn’t changed at all like you say.

    You spew that you supposedly know us and all about us, but you know nothing except what your told. You say I got kicked out of the business for stealing my downline’s money. Funny, I didn’t get kicked out of the business at all… I quit. Nor did I join another leg in Brad Duncan’s line bc if you knew anything about the business like you claim, then you’d know that it’s against WWDB (and probably Amway’s) policy to jump to another leg in the same line of sponsorship, so basically you don’t know anything about me. But then claim later to have been my downline that I stole from. Then let’s look at your 6:42pm post… here you are now asking Tom if there was some brother named Tony… WAIT!!! Weren’t you in my downline? Weren’t you one that I stole from? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… talk about discrediting yourself. It’s apparent you’re just making stuff up to try to discredit us. Hmmm… fiction is fun for sure. I’m guessing your response to this post will spin everything you’ve said and you’ll back peddle trying to find anything else to look at with your slight of hand.

    You state “Tom & Tony seem to want to blame Dean for it all”, really? Where did we say that? We didn’t, you’re just projecting your idiocy into that thought. In fact, I posted that it was mostly my own fault I didn’t make it and some of it the business itself… I didn’t even mention Dean being the reason… and why should I since he was making it himself. Another random stab at trying to discount our experiences, but just made you again look like a Dean Kosage nut swinger. You claim to have “known us” and thought we’d grown up by now. I’m sure we’ve met, but I can guarantee you didn’t know us or even live in the same state.

    And how hypocritical is you preaching about Cyber Bullying? Never heard of that bc for one, it’s the Internet and anyone can say whatever they want… and second, what do you think you’re trying to do by posting on this blog. Hypocrite!!!

    Here’s an idea… post some of your facts you talk about. Why hide behind “The Cult” name and why not put your money where your mouth is like Tom & I have. It’s easy to get on the Internet and hide behind a fake name and just talk shit. Let’s get a first name which would definitely help identify how much you think you really know. I’m guessing you won’t bc you’re a “cyber bully” and a COWARD!!

    — The Little Scared Guy w Gay Tendencies

  106. Tony permalink
    December 28, 2010 11:44 pm

    HAHA… yes, I think everyone LOS is exactly 100% the same. Of course not. I don’t recall ever saying that, but I’m sure your self-talk made that up in your mind.

    Seriously, you have something mentally wrong. You read something, twist it in your head as to what you think was meant or said and then write a 1000 word comment about what’s going on in your head, answering your own questions. Then you just start typing to yourself like you’re talking with Tom again… CUCKO!! CUCKO!!

    And what does whether how large my business was or how long I built it have anything to do with my personal opinions and experiences w Dean Kosage or what I know or learned about LOS or a LOA? Nope. I suppose you have the exact number of how big a business is or how long one is in the business to have an opinion?
    So let me get this straight… in order for you to have a qualified level of opinion about let’s say football or basketball, you have to have played it to a certain level, otherwise anything you say should be disregarded. HAHA

    And I too am happy that Amway is exposing the leaders who aren’t doing things right… case and point of this entire blog.. DEAN KOSAGE!! Case closed.

  107. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 12:04 am

    It’s very telling that we are men enough to put our real names on here, but “The Cult” hides behind a FAKE!

    Then thinking that bashing what Tom does for a living now is somehow “digging something up” on him? That’s what I call lame. I mean “The Cult” doesn’t even realize what Tom’ role is… he just assumes, spins it, and then think he’s doing everyone a favor by giving us his “social justice”. The guy is clueless.

    He didn’t know a thing about us except what I’m sure he’s been told. Somehow I was Tony Milan, but now I’m Tom’s brother that I guess he got me confused with this Milan guy, but yet still has a whole lot to say about my character and doesn’t even know me at all… because all he is trying to do is defamate us as people, when this is really all about our own opinions and experiences.

    It’s apparent that The Cult just came across this site and is responding to all the posts he is now reading, not the crap that he’s been following this blog for almost a year. I mean the first sentence of his first post was full of shit… so it’s only logically that everything else he’s saying is full of shit too.

    Anyways… it’s clear those of us who have been around Dean know why he’s out of Amway and WWDB. We were in the system and in Amway and all have our own opinions. Everything else that The Cult is getting personal about has no relevance and is just libel because he has no proof.. he just pissed bc he loves Dean and we don’t and he can’t deal with it.

    Personally I think The Cult has been drinking Dean’s man juice for the 15+ years he said he’s been.

  108. The cult permalink
    December 29, 2010 5:08 am

    classic tony how you try to discredit the truth because it took me a day to figure out who you where , yes I first thought you where Tony Milan , mainly because I would never have guessed Toms brother tony would ever have thought he could have a opinion about dean let alone the business. Shit you barley even knew the guy let alone did shit with the business. I mean like you never did shit , just sorta hosted folks from what I remember and clung to your more popular brother. You know the sad kid in the corner. I was in the other tonys business and he was kicked out and he did jump to another leg micheal mortia infact …… omg now you are quoting Amway and wwdb policy ( shit really ) . well there is the general rule that people should not jump around but anyone who actually built a business unlike you or actually studies knows it happens all the time. People are let go and transfers happen constantly ( wow and you thought that made me look bad ) LOL … what a fake you are quoting more shit that is totally not true . All it takes is the upline signatures.

    Hey anyone want to ask around and see if people so transfer legs or even LOA’s , lets show tony what he really is a scammer with a brother trying to get business off a blog site .

    I was reading your post above giving out advice on Amway unreal , and bagging on dean , oh and yes TOM has been blogging about dean for years you dumb ass I never said it was on this post LOL once again the big guy needs brain food don’t ya 🙂

    So let me get this straight you think someone who fights a system for years and believes if they get big enough they can help improve it is a ego out of wack ? OMG then how does anyone change and sport or a business you dumb ass … plus you once again act like you knew dean for even 2 years out of 22 yrs when he was a college age guy going through a divorce WOW ! You are so smart …

    Or the fact that after years someone might decided through travels and experience to shift their beliefs ? GEE dumb ass how do you think this country was formed ? How do you think Apple computers was formed .. by people breaking away and improving something or shifting it entire culture.

    Is this really about you still being to shy to get a date like when We knew you big boy ?
    couple of brothers , 10yrs later blogging about some bad choices they made and still talking shit about a guy … wow you are so impressive .

    Oh did you want my name ? UMM you mean like how you all posted your first and last names LOL ..just because I was able to find you out and expose the fact you are just selling us shit on here don’t get all personal. Gee I was around when you where , quit the business when I started in the stock market .. humm oh yes you where not even engaged enough back then to know anything about anyone where you ha ha … oh well .

    Uh big boy you can’t fake these details , unlike you . plus you are not making statements about your experience you are making statements about people today BIG diff … gee do i have to teach you everything.

    See there you go again making gay comments about ( man juice )
    I am sorry I though this was a blog about dean , you never said it was a I hate dean blog !
    So if someone does not agree with you ( they are wrong ) oh i get it …

    You know what is sad , both of you jumped on here to talk about a guy you knew 10yrs ago briefly …. i bet you still hang with the same crew and talk about the same stuff over and over again… have another beer bro and go pick corn.

  109. The cult permalink
    December 29, 2010 5:20 am

    Tony , I was taking a stab at a guy joe rhino boy who is currently up on charges for sexual crimes bro it had nothing to do with dean , but hey lets forget about the current crimes and type of charges LOL … ya go ahead defend him ( what you know this guy now tony )

    I am not trying to change your opinions of dean , I am just bring to light who you boys are and what a couple of FAKES you are looking to gain some night time fame …. I think you guys suckered some folks into amway , then bailed on them , and are more to blame then anyone. My point is that you guys got into amway not once but 2xs according to your own downline who still exist. Then you bailed on them with no notice …. and in shame tried to blame others for your actions…

    oh and why would it be bad if dean knew I was on here ? Did you call dean and tell him you where on here slandering him , or did you keep it quite and just talk behind his back ?

    I know one thing dean never talked shit about folks behind their backs when i knew him , in fact if he had a problem with you he was in your face … for a smaller guy he was tough as nails.

  110. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 8:45 am

    I love how you put yourself on a pedestal like you think you are so much better than anyone here, especially Tom or I. Everyone… read Tom’s posts… read my posts… then read The Cult’s post… I think we know the only person here who’s off topic and slingging mud about partial information about who we once we. And I love how The Cult preaches about how people can change in 10+ years, etc, but his entire rant here is about who Tom or I was 10+ years ago. The Cult is a hyp0critical idiot.

    Yes, Cult I am talking behind Dean’s back… ON THE INTERNET… SHHHHH, don’t tell anyone… and hopefully no one will see this. Oh and Dean is NOT tough as nails… he’s got short man’s disease and has no other alternative but to have attitude, but tough as nails? Nah.

    And it certainly seems you’ve strayed from your “truly wanting to expose the cult like nature of WWDB” to trying to just sling made up shit in your head about us. Go back to the fight you’re fighting against WW… although you don’t put up much of a fight.

    Oh and you were so close of being a man and telling us your name, but oh so eloquently changed the subject and pussed out. Go figure. Again, be man enough to post your FIRST name… I can’t see any place I said I posted my entire name like you ignorantly tried to point out. Man up or shut up, but I think you’re a closet blogger who just throws shit around and can’t back it up with facts or you’re just a lowly woman whose self-esteem and life is so lame you browse the Internet looking for ways to make yourself feel better about your life. I mean, why else would you try to tell everyone how great you’re doing now and how shitty someone else’s life is now.

    But I’m guessing you will still puss out and not give your first name. You know my name, let’s level the playing field and tell us your first name. But again, you’re not man enough to level that playing field… you’re the type who wants to go fight a guy in the back alley, but then brings his group of friends to the fight. I wouldn’t expect anything less than a backer of Dean Kosage.

  111. Joecool permalink
    December 29, 2010 9:04 am

    I questioned the home schooling because the great WWDB leaders used to brag about having so much cash that their kids go to exclusive private schools. I asked about qualifications for teaching home school because Amway salesmen and teachers are different occupations.

    Thecult, instead of attacking others behind your anonymity, why don’t you post some actual facts?

  112. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 9:24 am

    The Cult is full of facts… the “facts” that he hears from Dean and from others. All his “facts” are hearsay because I’ll bet $$ now that The Cult has never even met us. Any and all info is from Dean or Dean’s old downline. He’s given no facts… just images of what he’s been told by others… if that tells you of the type of person The Cult is… basing decisions and posting them online based on what others tell him… talk about a sheep and someone who can’t think for themselves.

    At least we talk about what we experienced… this douche is just grasping for straws in his childish attack campaign. But what the hell, it make him feel like more of a “man”.

    The Cult… it seems no one else is really buying into your tactics since you’re all talk with nothing to back it up. Alas… the infamous puppet of Dean Kosage.

  113. December 29, 2010 10:34 am

    In case people missed it, there was a moderated comment from “Tom’s Platinum Leg” a few comments up that I just published. First-time commenters need to be approved on this site.

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/dean-kosage-leaves-wwdb/#comment-3144

  114. December 29, 2010 11:52 am

    Interesting. I wonder if the truth actually lies in the middle of the road?

    As an IBO myself, I saw “emerald” Dean Kosage at local function in Hawaii. I didn’t get to speak to him in person so I don’t have an actual impression of what he’s like.

  115. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 12:29 pm

    Hey Tom’s Platinum leg… good to hear from you again.

    As I’ve said, and in my case, I haven’t been keeping tabs on Dean over the last 10+ years. It was that I heard about him being kicked out of WWDB and decided to check it out and found Amthrax’s blog. It was then that I merely posted about not having the freedom they claim too and then the blog turned into WWDB and the Amway business and then The Cult throwing inaccurate attacks towards Tom & I.

    The Cult doesn’t have the whole story… nor do we, nor do we claim to know the whole story. It a blog discussing Dean and we were just sharing OUR experience… good or bad.

    No one has said the business doesn’t work and I’m very happy you made it work. Being friends for years I’d want nothing more than the best for you and the wife and now your children. No one here is 100% down on WWDB or Amway although some posts may just emphasize alot of the negative of it, but that’s human nature. Rarely do companies receive calls, letters, etc when things are working great… it’s only when things are bad that people speak out.
    Both Tom & I have posted that we met great people in the business and it did teach us a lot of things… both good & bad about business, life, relationships, etc.

    People gossip, people talk about their past and yes people even keep up on friends (present & past), ex-business partners etc throughout their lives… again, human nature.

    I’m glad your relationship with Dean has gotten you where you’re at today, but as you said, it wasn’t all great and that is what is being expressed here. Some people can tolerate and put up with that type of personality, others can’t and/or won’t.

    But I do find it telling that, at least from this blog, people want to defend Dean yet he can’t/won’t defend himself. Seems everyone else does it for him . Why not defend Tom or I with all the crap The Cult’s been saying? Which leads me to… The Cult person got some vague misguided info on Tom and myself early in his posts — and although The Cult had me confused at first, he “was able to call someone that used to know us” and then suddenly had info on me. Seems as though some person with personal knowledge of Tom and I spilled their true feelings to The Cult and thus posted that info. Sorta makes me wonder who that might have been…….

    Is Dean different today than he was 10+ years ago? I’m sure he is… I just don’t know in what way or how much. But again, we are posting about that.. we post about what we experienced 10+ years ago and that it’s just not surprising that it came to this for Dean. And that’s what this is about.

    If people don’t like this blog it’s just like your business opportunity to prospects… if you don’t like it then move on. If you don’t like the site or what is being said then forget about it and find a more positive site. If you’re watching tv and you don’t like the commercial or show do you watch it anyways and then contact the company about how stupid they were and how everyone there are FAKES and losers bc it was a show you didn’t agree with? No, you just change the channel. So why not do the same here? Unless of course you find one of those people that like to just cause fights, conflict and controversy on any subject they can just to whine and be noticed **looking at you The Cult

    I’m happy for you and your wife and that things worked out. So it didn’t work out for us and we realize that. Do I blame Dean? No, he was successful in Amway. Do I blame Amway or WWDB? No, they too are successful businesses. Do I regret not building the Amway business? Nope, I’ve had much more freedom (physically and mentally) that building a business 24/7/365/15 years. But who is The Cult or anyone to come on this blog and try to dictate that our feelings, beliefs, experiences we had and where we are in our lives is wrong or less valuable then that of your own.
    Let us say what we want and live our own lives… pathetic or not in your opinion… we aren’t interfering in your life or degrading you bc you are still in the business or are friends with Dean. Just bc The Cult is a stock trader or you’re making 6 figures now in Amway doesn’t matter in my life or the grand scheme of things… it doesn’t make you a better or me worse of a human being than anyone else.

  116. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 12:37 pm

    Joecool… the truth very well may. We obviously left under bad circumstances. Tom left the business after I did, but he was working with Dean directly so he had the most interaction with him of all of us (back then). It obviously was bad enough that Tom (who was building a decent business) got fed up with it all.

    Now you could be like Tom’s Platinum Leg and could push through Dean’s personality traits and think he’s a great guy, etc. But it’s all based on personal experiences and how you deal with different personalities.

    Dean was a fun guy at times, but when he wanted to be mean, belittling and insulting he played hard ball… so it all depends on how your personality mashed with his.

  117. December 29, 2010 2:30 pm

    I moderated a bunch of posts that contained personal information and attacks on some of our commenters. The focus of this post is on Dean Kosage, not on other people.

    As JoeCool mentioned, it’s clear that Dean Kosage is a polarizing figure within WWDB and Amway. While people’s opinions may clash, we can all endeavor to debate intelligently and respectfully.

  118. Tom permalink
    December 29, 2010 3:36 pm

    Patrick…want to clear a few things up as well. I’m chuckling to myself as I write this, but I never got ass on a function trip in Portland. I was on the WW drip from 95-2000…the straight and narrow, no drinking (because Bill Britt said not to), always dressed for success, high degree of self respect as well as to women, etc etc…we were both on that road. How easily you forget…Hook drove to Portland and I took a flight…the flight was over-booked and I took a voucher to catch the morning flight….shit, was Dean pissed at that one! Getting some “lovin”…ha ha.

    Also, I left the business, what seemed “very quickly” to you, but it was a decision over 12-18 months. It was probably a massive surprise to you because I never passed those negative situations downline. You were so entrenched and held Dean in such high regard, I wasn’t about to piss all over your parade. I was tired of dealing with him and the biz wasn’t fulling anymore. Dean was very good at motivating people and regurgitating different trends, BUT he was not a person I wanted to follow in life and I made the decision to pull the rip chord. It was a tough decision, you’re made to feel like a quitter in life if you opt out of Amway. You knew how dedicated we were to prospecting, showing plans, driving/flying to Chicago/Iowa, Portland, Seattle, Michigan etc etc…it was a tough decision. I had a 2500 business with a great group of young guys/gals and an excellent set of tools taught by Dean on how to present the business, attract people, handle objections etc (he was good,no arguing that), but I could work with him anymore…I had had enough and wanted to focus on other ventures. Dean and I had a few conversations about it…he wasn’t happy, and that was that.

    I’ve blogged twice in 10 years, once in 2003 and a few posts in 2010. We talked about that in 2003, but in the end, I felt my story needed to be posted so people could do their due diligence. Have I made it my life goal over the past 10 years to drag his name through the mud…no. D0 I follow Dean’s career, please! The only reason I knew of Dean and WW recently was because a few people called me (knowing I was in his business) to ask if I had heard the latest. You’ve read my posts, it’s not angry…I’m not angry at anyone or WW…just posted my experiences.

    Glad you advanced your business, truly. I hope you guys go Diamond in the near future as well.

    The cult seems to be really angry…that anger will cause heart attacks! I’m actually surprised you’ve feed into his emotion, as you’re one of the coolest headed guys I’ve ever known.
    —“It’s like a bunch of high schoolers capping on ex girlfriends and boyfriends. The only difference was that in high school we got over those things in a couple weeks—-not 10 years”. By supplying that info, I guess you’ve just “lowered” yourself to our level on this blog. Welcome.

    FYI, know that blogging (especially all the new content/keywords The cult has added) only helps in skyrocketing this blog on Google’s search engine. I’m sure Amthrax is smiling from ear to ear with all the new content the past few days. Not helping The cult’s cause. How paradoxical!

    Hope you, Amber and the kids do well in life. You’ve forced me to detach our “friend connection” on FB…don’t need a psychopath watching me between his losing trades….LOL!

  119. The cult permalink
    December 29, 2010 6:11 pm

    wow, TOM and Tony sure do like to defend themselves with stories about how we should not judge them , because we do not know them and let that is all they are doing to guys like dean . I do know you boys and I witnessed you both as I mentioned ( gee read better ) as I said I watched Tom give mtgs.

    Look a how you are taking Patricks comments about things not alway being cool as if he meant working with dean ( wow what losers you boys are ) patrick I bet did not mean he had to push
    Through deans personality ! He has stated very clearly he has loved working with Dean .

    Tom as you said you and dean had a few conversations about you leaving ( and that was that ) ok then why are you still bagging on him ?

    Oh because you both seem to think he got kicked out of WWDB ? Still really ? that is funny i spoke with Sean D the CEO at wwdb and that was not the case . In fact Dean left because of no longer believing in the same culture that you both got into and drank . And yet you both still act like Dean somehow Self destructed ??? vs moved on as you supposed did .

    This is a blog about Dean so on this blog I talk about him and am giving you facts and exposing your BS and false assumptions.

    Now you are accusing Dean of having me blog for him ? REALLY is that now a FACT ( how stupid do you think folks are on this blog ).

    Dean has no idea I am on here , in fact he has taken the high road on most of the little AMBOTs who like to talk about the big pins as they make changes . He most likely is surfing and chilling out , you can checkout his FB .

  120. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 6:52 pm

    Cult — “This is a blog about Dean so on this blog I talk about him and am giving you facts and exposing your BS and false assumptions.”

    HAHAHAHAHA… ya, that’s why about 3-5 of your posts were deleted bc you were talking about Dean? Nope… you’re a moron bc the only thing you could do and tried to do was talk shit about Tom & I.

    I think we’re all still waiting for your cowardly ass to tell us your first name since you seem to think you’re so much better than everyone else here. You’re just a little drama queen.

  121. The cult permalink
    December 29, 2010 7:01 pm

    I agree Dean is a polarising figure as are most big leaders in anything. I find the people look to blame others for there failures attack him, but he has 1000’s of people who have benefited from him and love him. So to a rational person he seems to have added far more good then bad. No i do not get paid to do this. I just do not like the cult like behaviour of some folks in Amway and you guys are acting like that now, but you no longer can blame Amway .. plus this blog is about Dean.

    Hey Tony [Editor: Removed last name. Let’s stay on first name basis in this post] , didn’t you lie to us on here saying that you and TOM had never blogged before ? go ahead it is ok , say it ,,, say you where wrong and i was right TOM had blogged 🙂
    glad to hear your brother TOM come clean about that.

    But it is clear how TOM still tries to blame dean for him walking out on his people ( omg take some responsibility ). You left and i was there to watch it unfold bro. Dean even covered your ass and spoke kind of you , and he broke you a platinum leg.

    Yet you still are bagging on him because apparently you argued and few times WHOOPY DUE….

    I had you personally talk to me about how much dean had done for you , how much time and money he spent flying to train you. THESE are your words bro. You spent time up teaching me about deans character back then. Then days a month later you bailed because of shitty work type issues it had nothing to do with dean you lier. You and him just bumped heads when you tried to bail on a few commitments you had made. But in your defensive Deans says he use to get on people way to much in those early years… but that does not excuse you.

    I was even there when YOU asked dean to fly out to help you and his wife suddenly went into way early labor while he was helping you ! Then like a coward you turned around and tried to later insinuate Dean missed the birth of his own daughter on purpose ( what a loser you are and a low blow ) on a blog when you found out a year later they got divorced . what Kind of a man who has his own children would ever sink so low to insinuate someone would miss the birth of their own child on purpose ? That is just so low it shows how un rational you are !

    GEE I think you are a scam guy , and yet even I would say , you would like to be at the birth or your own kids.

    … We all knew it was because of TOM and your team . For that one reason alone you should never attack this man again. .

    He rushed back and he raised that little girl as a single dad. The whole world watched him. She is amazing and cute. He recovered form a divorce raised a daughter , created music videos , help a major motion picture get off the ground , and then oh yes left wwdb to travel .
    Oh wait ( am I now a dean fan ) no just the facts boys . you see if people have nice things to say then you dismiss them as if they are brainwashed only the negative folks are on point ( Dear GOD how lame ) . Oh and you do not need to be in amway to know this stuff , he story of raising his daughter is written about in some best selling books today. ” If I was your daddy ” .

    Oh and TONY do i really need to get to know you more to make comments about you ? WHY I knew you as long as you knew dean ( case and point ) . You where pitching the same talks Dean was drinking the same coolaid dean was , all I could see was Dean was more successful then you.
    And yet now you want me to believe you have changed ? WHY ….. I am just blogging about my personal experiences with both you and tom and dean . In fact during the same time frame.

    All I know now is I watched Dean over the last 3 yrs from a distance make huge shifts and break away from the WWDB culture. Then I saw him walk away from a massive tool income , AND YES THAT EARNED MY RESPECT. I was so happy to hear him do that 🙂
    I have not heard or seen any other diamond do that , and yet he did and now spends his time helping others get over all the coolaid everyone drank !

    I am only blogging about my personal experiences with TOM , TONY , and Dean .
    I saw all 3 of them drink WWDB’s BS I saw 2 of them fail and blame others and throw personal attacks vs just realising they all did not like the nature of WWDB . I saw one of them succeed and think he could change the culture of wwdb for the better. He claimed this all the way to the top of their management team and tried for years … then he realised he could not change it so he decided to leave. So i guess TOM and TONY left early and Dean left late.

    Point is boys grow up and stop taking negative about folks. You are the kind of guys who write on bathroom walls because in real life no one listens to you … funny more people listen to dean then any of us and he is the only guy not on here 🙂

    Bottom line the folks on your own team stayed with dean and he helped them make good money ( in 18 months not like your first post ) gee sorta off on that one huh 🙂 Then the guy above you dean went on and did great things hummm . Then the guys crosse line from you like me are doing well ..

    SO WHAT DOES YOUR DOWNLINE , CROSSLINE , AND UPLINE all have in common .
    They think you and your brother are off track .

    Oh wait let me guess , for me to be heard I have to tell you my name ? Oh yes that is how blogs work huh LOL .

  122. The cult permalink
    December 29, 2010 7:08 pm

    Oh I see you are able to see if my blogs are deleted ? I am not seeing that all of my blogs are on here .
    Are you trying to say that you and the moderator are talking behind the scenes of this blog ? I hope not that would really defeat the whole purpose of a open format.

    I am blogging about dean and his time with you scam artist . My entire post are on that , just because you do not like them shove off mate and get off the blog . You do realise this could very easy become a positive blog about dean. But if you boys keep posting lies and false assumptions then i am here to call it out. You see you thought this would just be a negative blog about dean ( oh I am sorry ) those are called hate site bro, go get on one of those if that is your goal.

    Ps it just came to my attention as do you all realise on Deans sites his name is trademarked now.
    You might want to be careful using his first and last name now.

  123. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 7:11 pm

    Read the posts Cult… I already admitted the I was mistaken about Tom blogging if he indeed had. And looks like Tom already admitted to blogging one other time 7 years ago. Read before you post dumbass.

  124. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 7:22 pm

    Oh, and Cult… please try using your own words… you’re a parrot and start using words that we use bc what… can’t think on your own.

    And let’s all read Tom’s first post again. The Cult points out that Dean helped people make $ (in 18 months not like your first post)… Here is Tom’s exact words “or think about all the people that have been ‘fighting the fight’ for the past 10-15 years that are not any farther in their business in the past 5+ years.”
    So Patrick went Platinum in 11-18 months or whatever… but like Tom said… they are not any further in the last 5+ years. Again, you’re an idiot… you can’t even get the facts right that are written on this blog. Just make it all up to make your story sound better.

    The Cult “Point is boys grow up and stop taking negative about folks.”… I’m pretty sure you’re the biggest hypocrite I’ve ever met… that’s all you’ve done in all your posts. LOSER!!!
    You’re posts are deleted bc moderator obviously believes you crossed the line… God I’m glad you’re not in my corner arguing… you’re a complete and total idiot.

    WHAHAHA… Dean Kosage trademarked his name? Can you say ego trip?

  125. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 7:24 pm

    You can be heard all you want on a blog… just no one but your upline or Amways buddies will believe you when you have no evidence and hide behind a name slandering everyone and making up anything negative you can say about a person. You’re a coward… whether you’re heard or not doesn’t matter… the fact you’re a coward w no evidence and can’t back it up does matter.

  126. December 29, 2010 7:27 pm

    I see some interesting comments in this blog in the past few days. It’s good to have both side of the story. Early on some of you guys were really bashing amway business opportunity not just dean and the system. All though you guys never said it directly, it was clear that your intention is to discourage others from joining Amway or to quit the business. I did not think it was fair to someone who is unfortunately, some people could make a decision base on this alone. Now with a few positive comments, it balance things a little bit.

  127. Tony permalink
    December 29, 2010 7:42 pm

    Ya Mozart because some guy gets on here and claims to know stuff then you now have both sides of the story. I feel sorry for you if hear something and then claim it just has to be true bc someone said it.

    Cult likes to say what he’s saying bc of his personal experience w me and Tom. Christ, the only person who know who this guy is is Patrick. He’s too much of a coward to tell us who he is bc he knows his whatever credibility he seems to have will be squashed bc the any info he has is stuff he’s heard about or gotten from Patrick (Tom’s Platinum Leg).

    Mozart you don’t know me, Tom or any of these guys, so don’t go saying that you suddenly know the story based on a blog and some cowardly loser whose sole purpose posting is to attack those of us that have had personal knowledge of Dean and his tendencies… trying to discredit us, like what we experienced didn’t happen.

    I told you as well Mozart to do well in the business… but like most of this blog says… the odds aren’t on your side. And hopefully someone doesn’t base their decision solely on this blog or any single website or info packet they read about.

  128. Tom permalink
    December 30, 2010 12:49 am

    Thanks for more content cult. I like you, your posts are entertaining….LOL.

    Quote from The cult (10/29/10 7:01) – “he has 1000′s of people who have benefited from him and love him. So to a rational person he seems to have added far more good then bad.”
    –So, the “rational person” would also conclude that Hitler did more good than bad…as he had a whole country that loved him and felt they were being benefitted as their leader. Is that really how your deductive reasoning is working? Not sure Dean would like you blogging to defend him, you’re only making it worse.

    Quote: “Hey Tony, didn’t you lie to us on here saying that you and TOM had never blogged before ? go ahead it is ok , say it ,,, say you where wrong and i was right TOM had blogged glad to hear your brother TOM come clean about that.”
    –I don’t think Tony tracks where and when I’ve blogged the past 10 years. But you did state that you had been following his blogging efforts for the past year…blog started on 7/1/2010. Here’s that quote: The cult PERMALINK December 28, 2010 1:22 am
    “And tony I have watched your comments for almost a year now and it is apparent you claim to have been personally sponsored by dean but your anger is so strong it makes me think you have gay tendencies wasn’t that almost ten or more years ago you worked with Dean ?”

    You’re fun, I like you. It is tough for a scam artist to “come clean” about my Dean blog in 2002 or 2003, but I managed it…part of my 12 step scam artist program.

    Quote: “Deans says he use to get on people way to much in those early years”
    Thank you for finally stating it…that’s what my content consists of, concerning Dean. It was beyond me why anyone would put up with Dean’s crap in “those early years”. Dean blew a lot of people out of his business in “those early years”. Blame, it was a cause and effect situation…Dean wasn’t the man I wanted to become, why would I continue to walk in his footprints? It was a combination of causes, but Dean being Dean, in those early days, didn’t help! I took my skill sets and applied them to a different business. (Dean, you may want to ask cult to exit stage left).

    Quote: “I had you personally talk to me about how much dean had done for you , how much time and money he spent flying to train you.” I do remember you now “Bro”…Dean’s little assitant, William [Editor: Removed last name. Let’s stay on first name basis in this post] or something? You followed Dean everywhere and Dean would always point you over to one of “us minions” to answer your business questions. You had a slight stutter and kept asking how we approached professional people blah blah blah. Oh yeah, and how we got Dean to fly to Iowa to do board plans. You didn’t seem so angry then. I do remember Dean was always annoyed with you and newbies alike…he’d just tell you to get a “Getting Started” tape or go get a tan and a cell phone…classic! If you must know how “I got” Dean to Iowa….put on your seatbelt, here comes more truth. Here’s how it unfolded…I sent a friend of mine to an open that Dean was doing in Phoenix in 1995, afterwards, my friend ends up chatting with Dean….my buddy is sharp (played sports at a high level etc etc), Dean recognizes it and proceeds to offer him the chance to work him personally (classy). I get a call the next day from my buddy propositioning me the opportunity to work with him. I was a bit blown back, but Dean was a LEGEND with his Emerald tape (WW must have made a mint off that one)…young, “free”, attitude etc etc. Being young, dumb and full of cum, star-struck, and no one sponsored beneath me…I agreed, under the radar of WW & Amway, to be plucked out of a Ruby’s business DL from Brad Duncan…James Bond like!. I had to sit out, but had to sign off that I was leaving my current leg for some BS reason. And that, William, my friend, is how Dean got his platinum leg in Patrick. He snaked my f*cking prospect at a WW open in Phoenix!! That’s what we’re dealing with…totally disregarding any business ethics…I should have never been surprised by his actions a few years later…LOL. Hey, not the most sound decision on my part (with the James Bond move), but Dean was classic at using his notoriety for his benefit. Bill R was another platinum leg he picked off. I do believe he was doing a “step 1” in a coffee shop and Bill overheard and inquired, but he was in another leg….but not for long! William, you are only bubbling up more stories about Dean that you don’t want to hear.

    Quote:

    So you remember when I “asked” Dean to come to Iowa when Becca was about due. God bless Dean for his dedication (I’ll expand on that shortly), but it was an unfortunate scenario…I think Teagan came a week or so early…it happens. BUT, the f’d up part was that he wanted the Iowa group to go black ops on the fact he was in IA at the time of the birth because it would look bad…as WW preaches family and freedom etc. It was unfortunate and NOBODY ever claimed he did it on purpose…Go read my post back in 2002 or so concerning that event in Iowa City….http://www.amquix.info/kosage.html My point was the cover up, not that he missed Teagan’s birth on purpose…what’s wrong with you? I love your “fact finding missions”…LOL. Looky there, I just back linked this site to amquix, giving them both a little more juice on the search engines, all because of your lack of detail in reporting William. Did I mention I liked you?

    Quote: “Then like a coward you turned around and tried to later insinuate Dean missed the birth of his own daughter on purpose ( what a loser you are and a low blow ) on a blog when you found out a year later they got divorced . what Kind of a man who has his own children would ever sink so low to insinuate someone would miss the birth of their own child on purpose ? That is just so low it shows how un rational you are!
    –Your post is so full of bs…let’s take this section for fun: already handled the first part, you got your homework assignment William. 2nd part concerning timeline of divorce. Dean was getting divorced before I moved to Phoenix so it must have been in late 97 or early 98…I was in the biz till 2000 and posted my comment in 2002 or 2003…your timeline reveals your bullshit 😉 Comical!

    Quote: “you see if people have nice things to say then you dismiss them as if they are brainwashed only the negative folks are on point ( Dear GOD how lame )”
    –I’m not a Dean fan, but here are some genuine nice things about Dean. He’s dedicated, studies his craft, was fun to hang out with socially, great speaker, smart and driven. There you have it…unfortunately, in my situation, the bad outweighed the good.

    Quote: “Oh and TONY do i really need to get to know you more to make comments about you ? WHY I knew you as long as you knew dean ( case and point ) . You where pitching the same talks Dean was drinking the same coolaid dean was , all I could see was Dean was more successful then you.”
    –You’ve already proven you have no idea who Tony was a couple days ago…can’t believe you’re trying to pull this off…do you realize you’ve already posted that you mistook him for someone else, until Patrick put some arrows in your quiver. He’s 6’6″ 275 lbs, you wouldn’t have forgotten him after “knowing” him for 5 years..also, Tony wasn’t the guy “pitching” any talks. “Bro” your attempt to put these pieces together isn’t adding up…go get more info from Patrick (case and point)…LOL!

    Quote: “I am only blogging about my personal experiences with TOM , TONY , and Dean”
    –already taken care of this one.

    Quote: “Point is boys grow up and stop taking negative about folks. You are the kind of guys who write on bathroom walls because in real life no one listens to you”
    –Let me list my top ten of your negative personal attacks…LOL! This is what is left after the moderator had to delete a bunch of your post for being TOO personal attacking…LOL!
    1. 12/28/10 11:06 pm: “what dumb F thing to say dear god , were you dropped on your head as a child”
    2. 12/29/10 5:08 pm “I mean like you never did shit , just sorta hosted folks from what I remember and clung to your more popular brother. You know the sad kid in the corner”
    3. 12/29/10 5:08 pm: “oh and yes TOM has been blogging about dean for years you dumb ass”
    4. 12/29/10 5:08 pm “GEE dumb ass how do you think this country was formed ?”
    5. 12/29/10 7:08 pm “I am blogging about dean and his time with you scam artist .”
    6. 12/28/10 1:22 am “Plus you all act like you are not F@# ups”
    7. 12/28/10 1:22 am ” it is like your own personal jerk circle”
    8. 12/28/10 1:33 am ” to find out you are just pissed off little kids form back in the day…”
    9. 12/28/10 4:46 pm “but for now I will start by googling your wife and family to see what I can dig up ”
    10. 12/28/10 4:46 pm “supported his crazy ex wife”
    11. 12/29/10 7:01 pm “what a loser you are and a low blow”

    Quote: “I know one thing dean never talked shit about folks behind their backs when i knew him , in fact if he had a problem with you he was in your face … for a smaller guy he was tough as nails.”
    – two parts to this. Well, I heard Dean talk tons of shit about others…upline, crossline, and downline. If you want examples, I’ll post them…which you wouldn’t want.

    2nd part…Dean was “tough as nails”, which I would tend to agree…he was very well trained in martial arts….can you run me through how Becca (at 115 lbs soaking wet) got the physical drop on Dean to the point he called 911?…being tough as nails.

  129. Tony permalink
    December 30, 2010 8:46 am

    WHAHAHAHA!!! BURRRNNNN!! Tom, your last post definitely doesn’t help Dean’s, err I mean The Cult’s cause… so Dean stole your prospect in PHX… and he stole another leg from another group. Well no wonder he was kicked out of WW, especially since he snaked 2 legs from within his own upline’s group, which created 2 of his direct legs… that’s golden.

    Now.. let’s see… this is info that you COULD’VE exposed years ago but you didn’t. You COULD’VE exposed Dean years ago about what he did, but you didn’t. But now it seems, thanks to The Cult, the deep dark truths are coming out. I’m sure Dean will appreciate The Cult for having this come out. Damn, I’m sure Tom has many more things he can share about Dean.

    I have a feeling Tom’s info won’t be processed by a certain couple on this site. It’s apparent they don’t like or want the facts to come out… they just want to try to discredit those that do have legit info. Keep it coming Cult, I want to learn more deep dark secrets about what Dean has done.

  130. December 30, 2010 9:49 am

    After reading all the posts the last few days. It’s clear that there are 2 sides to this. Everyone could be lying, and everyone could be telling the truth or partial truth. Bottom line is now this blog is not all negatives like it was before. Anyone can come here now and judge for themselves. No one here has any evidence here to prove their case, why would anyone believes one person over another? I can’t not say Cult is lying or telling the truth. I feel the same way about everyone else. That’s the Internet. People can put whatever they want there and hope someone will believe them. It’s good to hear both sides, it helps everyone that way.

  131. Tony permalink
    December 30, 2010 10:07 am

    True Mozart… but what I’d like to point out is that some of us are sticking to the point of what happened in their personal experiences in the past w Dean. Others just came on here to attack those of us who were telling our perspectives.

    Hopefully you have a better judge of character than to just think someone who starts their attack campaign is being honest or just throwing up smoke & mirrors. I mean The Cult barely even talks about Dean… all his posts are just attacking Tom and I… if that shouldn’t raise some red flags as to why one would come on a blog and do that… to perhaps cover up the truth and try to confuse anyone else that might see the blog? Hopefully others who see this site will see our posts vs The Cult’s posts and realize his tactics. If they can’t… oh well.. everyone can make their own decision.

  132. Tom's Platinum Leg : ) permalink
    December 30, 2010 2:16 pm

    I stepped into a Hornet’s nest. 🙂 Just to clarify—this is the first post I’ve ever made anywhere on any site related to Amway (negative) and I thought I was pretty cordial. I got an atomic bomb of names and accusations dropped on me on Facebook within 24 hours of posting it as people think I’m providing the “cult” dude with info.

    I doubt anyone will believe me, but I don’t have any idea who that person is and I wouldn’t do that. I think anyone who’s known me for the last decade or so would vouch for that. I don’t think I’ll be back as I am pretty sure it won’t go anywhere constructive or positive.
    To each their own I guess. I was just trying to give a view of the other side of the story.

    I could cut and paste what was sent to me on Facebook as it would really expose some things (and probably immediately discredit) some of the people posting here (and no, I’m not going to name names.) but unless I get personally attacked on here, I don’t think I’ll do that. But it was off the charts, mean, disrespectful, accusatory, etc. I’d say it was even hurtful, but I know the person who said it wouldn’t have done it if they knew the truth—we all make mistakes, so forgive and forget.

    Having my first name dropped along with my wife’s was close, but from what I saw (no way in Hell I’m gonna read all that) we weren’t really personally attacked on here — so I’ll give it a pass. But I’ll save it just in case. : )

    Just goes to show that even if you’re trying to be constructive you’ll get dinged on the net. Maybe that’s why most people who are attacked just leave it alone–I don’t know that you can win. Makes our court systems look AWESOME all of a sudden. lol
    Good lesson learned for me (and since it’s here forever—my kids.) : )

    Happy New Year all!
    And I still think the name Amthrax is pretty sweet.

  133. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 5:44 pm

    WOW , no you are comparing Dean to hitler , you really are sad.
    What a stupid example , In my past post I compared all of the positive impact dean has had to 1000’s of people , I did not talk about him just having fans ( hello loser ) You have not taken to time to interview or even seek out the 1000’s of families and childern dean has helped over the last 22ys.
    You just wait to hear about a bad story and then like fools attach it to your past memory.

    Hitler did not have 1000’s of fans who said their lives where better off because of him during or after his reign. Dean has help multi of 1000’s over the past 22 yrs and still to this day. Who love and respect him and his kindness ( hey guess what I am talking about dean 🙂 Oh but I bet because it is positive you now will just say I am star struck LOL, or in his business. I am neither .

    Again this type of talk and refusal to admit You have no clue who Dean is today or the past 10 years proves you are just a hater ( the racist kind )

    You can talk all you want about when you knew him , and the tough few years he was in , but to not admit or show grace or have the maturity to realise people grow and change ( like you puppets in Amway claim to have ) . Well that my friend just shows you both are nothing but loser and haters .

    It forces us all to drop our high level conversations down to your attacking type natures ( which I did to you both on the last few days ) you both reacted and got upset claiming with statements like ” I don’t know you “”I have no idea about your character ” let me see what else , oh yes You suddenly want facts vs just my past memories being good enough. SO HOW DID YOU LIKE IT THROWN BACK IN YOUR FACE. That is all yo are doing to Dean.

    I have been on here talking about dean for two days and defending the false accusations of two brothers TOM and TONY , even Tom and Tonys old downline got on here and stated Dean was on track and TOm and tony where off track.

    I already explained I had mistaken Tony for another tony I knew but after 24 hrs I corrected that . ((TOM seriously get help bro again this just proves your bad memory from this week let along 10 years ago ) . See tom you can admit a mistake and move on buddy.

    My name is not william and I for sure was never deans assistant LOL , but hey nice try boys. I obviously knew your brother TONY and You .

    You guys are NOT just sharing a past experience you are attacking dean now and his current life and his intentions ( of which you both have no clue ) That is why I am all over you jerks.
    Share your past and have grace about the future , but the minute you Demonise someone like your early blogs did they I am going to have to step in. Especially when I witness your whole story unfold.

    I don’t care about your brief encounter with dean, I care about how you make statements about him with no facts of any kind just your opinion and yet when I voice my opinion you suddenly want facts ?? huh how two faced of you both. You are ok to just share your past but if someone does not agree with you , now you need facts ? OMG . The folks who where around you at that time are not agreeing with you and the world needs that perspective to not pre judge dean.

    Worse you act as if you both where not doing exactly what he was.

    From what I remember Tom was such a little follower type of a sheep your right you probably did not have a drink ( because yo hear from bill britt not to drink ) WOW how stupid and cult like.
    I remember Dean never feel that hard for that stuff and he constantly took crap from wwdb for not falling into their belief systems. Yet you fools are actually trying to convince people on here that Dean was responsible for the wwdb cult like nature ( ya right )

  134. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 5:47 pm

    Hey we should start a blog about TOM and TONY hubbard and how they got in amway 2 xs jumped from one group to another, and suckered people in the business and then just bailed on them .

    No they go back and hurt their old teams LIke his platinum leg and by slandering their coach ( wow )
    How thoughtful . I will start this blog

  135. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 5:52 pm

    Dean never asked anyone to try and cover up him missing his daughters birth , I was there .
    Due to his wife feeling awkward and about it and it being a sad experience for them both they asked people not to talk about it is all for a few weeks.

    That was it just a few weeks because it rattled them .
    GEE how horrible , it had nothing to do with wwdb it had to do with it being a very private moment for them.

    Again for a guy like TOM to try and twist that into negative to bag on dean or wwdb is just so low and dis tasteful it is unreal. Tom never had that impression of the event at that time either it was only later when he want to blast dean because he could not man up to his own issue’s .

  136. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 5:55 pm

    Heck even his daughter today is aware of it and they talk about it all the time . Dean and becca both talked about it all the time after the shock of it wore off even that year !
    SO nice try TOM , but for those of us who actually where around back then TOM story is WACK people.

  137. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 6:03 pm

    Tom first platinum has not talked to me at all , as if that somehow would be wrong LOL ,
    ( Wow TOM and TONY really don’t like others being able to post do they )

    Dean is awesome and has helped tons of people , and continues to this day to grow and change , he even helped me un cult myself when I had a desire to make money outside of WWBD and he encourage me and supported me.

    It is not cool or OK for these two boys to hack on his current intentions , desires, lifestyle, or character . You both are whining about me attacking your character because of my past experiences with you and yet that is all you do to Dean. Plus I am only defending what I believe to be true and to add insight to those who read this stuff. Because you both seem to think it is only your way or no way.

    If you talk crap about someone online and are not willing to be attacked yourself then get off the web boys. Now if you want to talk about WWBD being off track them I am with you, but you need to stop blaming Dean for all that.

  138. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 6:06 pm

    hey tom thanks for listing my personal attacks as I defended your personal attack about dean OMG are you really that stupid 🙂 you can personally attack him because of past memories but when I call BS because I was there you don’t want to be personally attacked ?

  139. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 6:20 pm

    I will end today with this , if you feel WWDb had a cult like feeling , then you should be happy Dean left and today is helping people de clutter from all that . Some of you on the early post just seemed to not like dean because he dated hot girls ( wow really now you are still in a cult arent you ) LOL

    Yep Dean dates hot girls always has and always probably will 🙂 just like other VIP’s or sports players, or high end folks . Women are attracted to dreamers , and Dean was super giving with his time or money to people in need. Women for sure are attracted to that.

    And yes he never fell for all the WWDB cult like nature , funny even on the early post you hear some current IBo’s bagging on Dean for not following WWDB cult like nature that Amway does not even support !

    Then Tom and TONY try to tell you Dean caused this ?
    LOL so gee you have me , tom and tony own downline telling you dean was not that way. You even have other Cult followers telling you dean was not ( in line ) with their right wing religious ways.

    How much more fact and proof do you people need to realise dean was never into that crap and finally left after he made it to the ever golden table at management team where he was promised you could have a voice to change things. After a few years of trying he realised he had been misled and then left , just like Brad WOlg, and Jimmy Harsted.

  140. Tony permalink
    December 30, 2010 6:32 pm

    Tom is writing about personal experience with Dean. You are simply attacking Tom and trying to discount his experience and call that “defending Dean”. Those aren’t even close to being the same. Ya see… if you were defending Dean you’d be talking about all the great things Dean did and does in your own experience… and what Tom experienced would be different experiences and you could agree to disagree with who Dean is, but you’re too stupid to realize it. All you know how to do is fight like 6 year boy and call people names, hiding behind an alias on the web.

    You say you are defending what you believe to be true. Again, defend Dean of his character, when you defend someone you defend their honor not attack the other party, well unless you’re in politics… you weren’t part of our group back then so you have no personal knowledge of what happened with us. You weren’t in the personal counseling meetings, up late with us, running around town, etc with us were you… so you have no knowledge of what happened to try to discount what we went through.

    Be a big boy, put away your Pampers and move up to Pull-Ups, and just admit that you had a different experience than us with Dean and move on. You can’t erase what our experiences were w Dean no matter how many names you call us.

    Oh and what is that site where Dean’s name is now copyrighted? Or are you just talking about his blog page where he copyrighted the name of his blog. Or can you even come up w simple evidence of that?

  141. Tom permalink
    December 30, 2010 8:40 pm

    Good point bro…the real bro. I have never discounted cult’s experiences or my downline’s. I wasn’t there, I wouldn’t know…that’s rational thinking. But for this person to claim my Dean experiences are invalid is childish. I have never lied about my experiences…it just really upsets people to hear/see their hero(s) in a different light. Much like all the Tiger Woods fans that probably felt betrayed that their hero wasn’t who they thought and idolized…when you invest emotionally into someone (coach, mentor, parent, idol) and that someone may not be the picture they had thought, it’s tough to except and believe. I don’t blame them…there was a time I would have been sticking up for Dean as well. Its that I had many different experiences over a course of 4 years that turned me off. But I do understand cults anger. Everything I’ve blogged about is true…I have downline that could back it up…even a few events that Tom’s Platinum Leg could attest to.

    Concerning Dean / Hitler post:: Any rational person flipping through this blog could decipher the deductive reasoning angle I was arguing vs. Cult’s knee jerk response of me comparing Dean to Hitler. It’s Cult’s ‘if/then’ mental process I was exposing…if Dean has 1000’s of people who like/respect him, THEN he must be doing more good than bad. To me it shows, with all due respect, the mental capacity I’m dealing with here. An individual with a quick trigger, not much maturity…dangerous combo. With that I’m out…this guilty pleasure of blogging about Dean has run it’s course. I hope Dean is doing good work out there…he’s got great talent! Maybe he has learned and changed. Good luck to all!

    PS…Maybe we’ll see ya all over at the Tom & Tony blog…that’d be fun.

  142. The cult permalink
    December 30, 2010 10:32 pm

    Well it sounds as if we are coming to a end 🙂 I am glad Tom you understand my anger to being mislead into what I would call a right wing religious controlling LOA . I do not mean that everyone in WWDB is bad of course that would be a racist comment. But I am mainly upset with myself for allowing myself to lose my authentic voice along the way . ( that is a term I picked up recently listening to some of Deans blog talk radio post from ( the ultimate game of life ).

    I personally had dean enlighten me to that and it set me free, it sounds like Dean was not at that point in life where he was fully aware of those issues when he dealt with you guys . Hey Dean admits he was all caught up in the whole ” i am your upline hero worship BS ” of course he was OMG have you ever dealt with His mentor BRAD DUNCAN. Yikes

    Again my goal was not to blow off all your experiences with Dean as much as it was to expose that it takes 2 to tangle ( it always does ). And that My experience was way positive with Dean back then and recently.

    I just did not like the common thread at all the early blogs post that where demonising him , and worse insinuating he was making every move on this planet with a BAD intent. Because everyone knows that is just silly. I can’t stand it when people have bad experiences and then never allow themselves to heal or worse others to say they are sorry.

    And you have to admit all the early post where judgemental to the point that even if dean ever tried to say ” hey man sorry for back then ” it did not sound as either of you would have accepted that, let alone have taken any responsibility for your own actions. SO that would of course blow me up because it is just hate at that point.

    TONY , uh no the copyright is no joke bro , I know because another MLM was marketing his name on line trying to use that to capture people into their MLM and they just got nailed for it and it cost them big money. My friends in that mlm showed me the paper work because they knew I knew him Just A heads up.

    But hey all cool with me , as long as we all realise people can change , I am only going after the ones who have not changed 🙂

    I personally am more upset with this Paul Tsika character who is using faith to control people.
    You boys should look him up WOW , what a classic joke he is. The pastor advisor for WWDB LOL….the dirt on this guy is amazing.

    AND Dean if you ever see this site rock on bro , tons of us value you.

  143. aurora permalink
    December 31, 2010 8:46 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  144. The cult permalink
    January 3, 2011 2:02 pm

    wow really , aurora ?

    I never called anyone stupid or losers for not making it in amway , in fact I have agreed with the cult like nature and hero worship comments but that has nothing to do with Dean.

    Your mary K example is totally off the mark, We are not talking about defending a company or a product line here or peoples performances in Amway. We are talking about judging a individual person. I am allowed to give my opinion and if I spot lies on here I will expose them.

    You guys stated he got kicked out , He did not he left. You acting like his life is going backwards its NOT. And you for sure have no clue or facts on what he is doing or has been doing since he was of College age OMG. Give it a break. He has won awards out side of Amway , giving massive amounts to charity, done music projects, given back to his community. So my point is if you want to talk about his college yrs as a young lad getting his feet off the ground go for it.

    But Then I need to talk about who and what he has become after his 20’s ( dear god I am happy we are all not judged for how we acted in our 20’s ) LOL. And if you want to expose others dirty laundry then you open yourself up to be exposed and if you do not like it then don’t play the game.

    I however have only pointed out that these guys are going off of 10 yr old info on Dean and the fact that I did not agree with them. I was there and I saw these guys and Dean work together, so I gave my personal experience ( which you keep clinging to ).

    SO if you do not like what is posted on here then you should just move on. Or stop whining that now some positive point of views are popping up.

    Funny how you don’t want to be judged or called names and yet that is what you are doing to people like dean. And since this is blog about dean I can post up my opinions. I also can point out the fact that some of you on here are ex amway people are trying to blame dean vs the Organisation that you all where in. The LOA and its culture existed far before Dean , he was not to blame for any of it.
    If you do not like MLM now then fine but that is not deans fault.

    In fact as I pointed out in my past post he tried to change it , he really thought he could change it if he got big enough. That is what Greg duncan used to tell us all and it was a lie. It just took awhile to figure that out. Now it appears many of the newer diamonds are figuring that out and leaving.

    I also have made it clear that I do not argue about your experience with Dean ( even though any good therapist would dis credit your stories from how inflamed and blaming you are. )

    I have only pointed out the fact you cannot keep making statements about who he is today or his intentions and only racist would do that. Plus the fact that if you ” sat at his feet ” then you must have valued at some point he advice. You had control of your brain back then and your body ” no one put a gun to your head ” So you either did see massive value in attending his teaching or you where just being stupid with how you used your time. And now you want someone to blame. Hey I get it I was upset as well. But it was not a person i needed to attack over it and in fact MY story is Dean helped me get out.

    So now that you have moved on don’t blame him. Blame amway blame wwdb but nobody stuck a gun to your head and said ” sit at deans feet “. Plus how awkward.

    Plus your false statement about if you where over 40 ( you could not work with dean is a joke ) .
    I am over 40. Dean of course attracted the young ages of people that where close to him ( so what ).
    There are tons of folks who worked with dean over 40. That does not mean they hung out , or related all the time. So you now speak for all the 40 yrs huh ( gee how humble of you ).

    Last time I checked there where tons of folks over 40 in WWDB so finding a older person was not your issue.

    Again i personally do not like the culture that wwdb created, many great people are in wwdb. I feel however WWDB creates hero worship and does not value the fact every IBO is different. We are not all going to do the same thing. Dean took a while to come to this awareness himself. Be happy for the guy 🙂 Sound like you actually might get along now unless you are a judgmental person who cannot let go of the past or thinks you can change but others can’t.

    The funny thing is on one hand you make a comment that if you are over 40 Dean did not work with you, and then you act like you know him LOL . Come on now you have to choose one or the other 🙂
    Either you worked very close with Dean and he gave you tons of time and energy, or you did not which means all you would now about dean is hearing him speak ( like listening to a college professor ) and asking him a few random questions after class ( ya boy you really get a insight as to who a person is that way huh NOT )

  145. aurora permalink
    January 4, 2011 4:38 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  146. Tony permalink
    January 4, 2011 7:24 am

    Aurora you are so right… the system and those that represented the system (yes Dean being one of the many) adamantly preached and ridiculed those that weren’t 100% serious and putting their everything into the business or didn’t show up to a meeting, etc. You were indeed meant to feel like a loser, a quitter and one who gave up on their dreams and life if you didn’t built the Amway business or attend every meeting.

    Is this a problem with the system? Absolutely… but you also have to place blame on those that were promoting the system that preached this crazy insane position that one amounts to nothing if you quit. This is a power move/tactic to try to retain as many downline as possible. People don’t want to be losers & quitters, so they stay in it just to prove they aren’t quitters to themselves and their uplines, even though they probably have no intention then of building a business.

    This isn’t aimed ONLY at Dean, but he was definitely one of the many that preached this in their board plans as well as more intimate settings.

    And I will say it again from my previous posts… I don’t blame Dean or the system for my not building a business. It’s clear that both Dean and the system worked and were successful, so one can’t blame them exclusively. But you can’t dismiss that Dean &/or the system didn’t/doesn’t deter people from building it because of personality differences or differences in beliefs. So no one in this blog, that I’ve read, is exclusively blaming Dean for their not making it in Amway… I guess I don’t see where you are reading that Cult. I think you’re just reading into that assumption of others’ posts, which it is not… at least in my opinion.

  147. January 4, 2011 8:52 am

    All of you guys are right. But it’s true for every system that exist. You can be either a victor of the system or a victim of it. Only a very small percentage can win and everyone will lose. Again to be successful in life u will have to associate yourself with people, lots of them. You will use some of to get on top (like a door mat) and a few of them will make it to the finish line with you. Like you guys said 90% of IBOs don’t want to build a biz anyway, they’re just going with the flow and keep spending their money. Isn’t how life is anyway? Why would you guys think it should be different in Amway? In general 90% of us just go thru life, spend all of our money then die. Amway only gives you an opportunity, and all the leaders always tell you that 90% of us in Amway will not make it, however, any one of us can be part of the 10% and the only to find out is not to quit. If anyone of us try Amway for a few yrs and it does not work out for us, that’s fine, we should move and learn from it, and prepare yourself for the next opportunity. There is absolutely no one to blame but yourself 100%. if you were not lucky enough to have someone who thinks like you as an upline, it is still your fault that you have bad luck. To be successful, sometimes you have yo be lucky as well. Luck and success go hand in hand. But at the same time if you feel like you have to pass the blame or even share it with someone else. Go for it, it’s your choice too. Keep in. Mind the more you blame yourself the stronger you can become next time around. In conclusion, every system works including the Amway system. But they only work for a small group of people. Unfortunately, you must try it yourself to find out if you are part of that small group. And for some of us, it might take 5 yrs and $20,000 in investment before they find out they’re not part of that elite group of that particular system. That does not mean they’ re losers, It just means that system is not for them. Period.

  148. Joecool permalink
    January 4, 2011 9:09 am

    The problem with Dean as a leader and the system in general is that it is full of false promises. That you will “make it” if you don’t quit. That someone can “choose” to win. It simply isn’t true and even those who achieve some level of success finds out quickly that your Amway business is like a sand castle. The moment you stop maintaining it, the waves wear it down to nothing very quickly.

  149. January 4, 2011 3:32 pm

    @joecool. Everything you said in your last post is true. You can make it if you don’t quit. There no guaranty in any biz, I am not sure someone would say if you don’t quit, you will make it. What if you don’t quit and you are a couch potato, how can you make it. But if you don’t and you what you are supposed to do, yes you will make it in Amway and any other biz model out there. And you are Ali right. If you don’t maintain your biz, it will collapse. I don’t know anything that exists that does not require maintenance. As a mcdonal owner, you still have to go to training, function to maintain your McDonald despite the big franchise fee you pay for the system. Bill gates works 16hrs/day to maintain Microsoft. Like they say “its hard to get on top, but even harder to stay” or you can sell your biz. And take your money and run. Your biz is like a stock, if you want to sell, you have to sell when stock is high. Some diamonds don’t maintain their biz for a few yrs, then when their bonus gets very low, they try to sell. Very funny!!! If you’re a founder diamond, I think that biz is worth at least $10,000,000. But I guaranty you that no founder diamond would sell their biz for that price. That person is probably making over $50,000/month or much more

  150. Joecool permalink
    January 4, 2011 4:53 pm

    There is no evidence to suggest that you will “make it” if you don’t quit. If you own McDonald’s, once you have an established store and customer base, you can sell the franchise and the store will still thrive because the customers will keep coming. The only thing that happens when you never quit is that your financial losses get bigger and bigger.

    With the attrition in Amway, once you stop, your business will tank, especially if you as a ldear such as Dean, relies on charisma as a part of the appeal to be and stay in the business.

    In case you didn’t hear, Bill Gates is no longer involved in day to day management of micrsoft. He “walked away” to spend time with his family

    A diamond or founder’s diamond business is almost worthless. What do you own? You don’t own your downline or their businesses. Your Amway business has no equity.

    If I owned a McDonalds and sold it, I would not only make a profit, but the new owner would then pay me back the near million bucks I shelled out for the franchise fee!

  151. January 4, 2011 6:01 pm

    How can you say a diamond biz is almost worthless? A web base biz that generate over $100,000 of volume for at least 12 consecutive months is almost worthless.

    Bill gates may not go to the office everyday. But I bet you he travel all over the place meeting with his executives to motivate them, implement new biz strategies, setting goals…. Trust me bill gates is working everyday. He sure has more time to spend with his family. That’s the beauty of a system.

    Just like bill gates. Dexter eager does not work everyday either. He just meet with his top producers monthly.

    A McDonald owner has to manage his biz just like in Amway. Even if you have a customer vase, you still have to improve the biz everyday to maintain your vase and to grow. As a McDonald owner, you have to maintain a cash capital above an beyond what the system cost for improvement, marketing and unexpected expenses

  152. aurora permalink
    January 5, 2011 7:23 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  153. Tony permalink
    January 5, 2011 7:34 am

    I believe they are EDC’s now, but I could be wrong.

  154. Joecool permalink
    January 5, 2011 9:11 am

    No proof, but I heard Mike Woods was living in Texas (cost of living cheaper than Hawaii) and had fallen back to emerald.

    Mozart, a Mcdonald’s franchise has equity. You have a building and you have the rights to the franchise fee. You can hire a manager so you don’t have to be involved in day to day activity. Bill Gates doesn’t have to travel to motivate his staff. His staff are well compensated and that is their motivation. IBOs are mostly losing their shirts and is why they need to be constantly motivated. Dexter is still attending all his functions because? Maybe he needs to?

  155. Knowledge permalink
    January 5, 2011 10:56 am

    Interesting blog to stumble across. As a past medium sized pin in WWDB I may take some time to add to this. I have not read all the posts, but will throw my ‘Knowledge’ and opinion in concerning the last few posts.

    As a person who has started, sold, and acquired businesses the past 15 years I would like to interject about comparing a Mcdonalds to a Diamond business in WWDB. One of the key components in determining the value of any business is it’s ability to operate with out the owner/President etc heavily rooted in the daily operations (along with cash flow, assets, debts etc). I would never, personally, buy a business that hasn’t already been ‘systemized’ (like a McDonalds) or that would be difficult to systemize. I see many people make the mistake of buying or starting a business where they are the ‘everything’ to that business. When they do not or can not systemize the business, they have simply bought themselves a job. If they leave for a month, it will go sideways.

    I never saw a Diamond business that would continue to prosper month after month, year after year, if that Diamond was not present. You have to be “the face”, managing personalities, couple disputes, along with motivating & training your bigger pins. And when your largest pin(s) erode/leave, like a Brad W, Dean K, Harsted, Magee’s (90’s), it’s devastating! Much like a break out of mad cow disease is to McDonalds. Tough to even compare the two businesses, but a McDonalds will just plug along with it’s systems in place. There still needs to be advertising, pricing, hiring a good manager etc, but with out the owner involved daily, it would go on.

    A Diamondship wouldn’t be “worthless”, but you’d have to have a particular set of skills to manage it and the fall off would be enourmous if the original Diamond was gone. Tough investment!

    FYI Mozart, Bill Gates has relinquished all day to day operations with Microsoft, leaving officially in 2008. He’s not “motivating” the executives anymore, they are all working for his legacy.

  156. aurora permalink
    January 6, 2011 6:44 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  157. January 6, 2011 10:39 am

    Tools profits, most certainly not. I wonder about Amway profits; they still are technically downline from the Duncans, no? Unless that changed too, which no one outside knows about.

  158. Tony permalink
    January 6, 2011 10:49 am

    So if Brad Wolgamott had 9 direct legs and then left Amway, would his 9 direct legs not go to Brad Duncan (his personal sponsor)? Is Brad Duncan now a Crown? And if so, could it be bc of Wolgie leaving WW and getting his directs?

  159. IBO in MD permalink
    January 6, 2011 11:17 am

    Dean-O and Wolgamott are still in the LOS of the Duncans. Just as Larry Winters is still Crown Paul Miller’s biggest leg, even though Winters left BWW. In terms of LOA != LOS. LOA= tool profits, for which the distribution will be different depending on the LOA. LOS=Where your *Amway* monthly bonus comes from.

    Amthrax, you should do more Amway posts with commentary. They generate good discussion even for IBOs, I don’t detect malicious intent from you even though you’re a “critic” which is good. Transparency is always better than secrecy dictatorial control. Pretty much always.

    So post more often 🙂

  160. Joecool permalink
    January 6, 2011 12:29 pm

    I think Brad’s wife Leslie is still running the business.

  161. Knowledge permalink
    January 6, 2011 12:57 pm

    Or what’s left of the Wolgamott business. I can only imagine how that business has eroded with the “rumors” of infidelity and the fact that Brad was such an icon in WWDB. The business is hard enough to hold together with out your whole business realizing you were not practicing what you were preaching in meeting. God, “Family”, Country, Business – if I remember right. Hypocrisy will filet any MLM business wide open!

  162. aurora permalink
    January 6, 2011 1:25 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  163. Joecool permalink
    January 6, 2011 2:53 pm

    Aurora, what blog did you read that on? As far as I know, WWDB still has the 4 major functions with Dream Night being the one going on now.

  164. January 6, 2011 5:40 pm

    IBO in MD – Thanks for the kind words. There will be more posts in the future, so stay tuned!

  165. aurora permalink
    January 7, 2011 5:12 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  166. Susan Miller permalink
    January 7, 2011 9:52 pm

    It’s funny to me how folks can sit and write and judge when they have no idea how it is to be in someone’s shoes or even walk their own talk.

    There have been some huge assumptions made on this blog and I would challenge most of you to really think about the source of who is saying what on these posts.

    You have people who won’t ever take responsibility for their own actions but are willing to take a handout when it’s offered.

    When you think about the reasons we are all given the opportunity to take a breath it is sad when folks cannot see beyond their own limitations to the opportunities that are handed to them.

    My family has personally been impacted by the generosity of Mr. Kosage. He goes over and beyond helping thousands of people all over the world. He stretches folks to be better and he is truly the essence of what a coach epitomizes.

    If any of you have ever played a professional sport you would know what I’m talking about. A coach pushes you to do your best and serves as your mirror – to tell you to pick up the pace and stay focused in the game.

    Folks out there who simply don’t know what it’s like to appreciate a true leader basically take themselves out of the game.

    Life is short and there is so much more to focus on. The only reason I felt compelled to add my thoughts is because it’s easy to stand by and say nothing…if I have learned anything from Mr. Kosage it’s to express your self honestly and stand for what you believe in.

    I truly do wish everyone the best on this post and hope you can think about the experiences you attract to your life and be better. Learn and grow from them. You always have a choice.

    Take care everyone.

    Respectfully,

    Susan Miller

  167. aurora permalink
    January 8, 2011 5:58 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  168. Tony permalink
    January 8, 2011 9:08 am

    Susan – I played college athletics so I do know about coaching and inspiration and coaches impact on those who are striving to do better in an “industry” they want to excel in. Dean had/has great knowledge and experience and yes wants to help many people out (but only bc it helps him out monetarily – unlike many true athletic coaches), but that doesn’t make anyone a good coach. A good coach adapts to each player and knows how to motivate them individually to become better… while other coaches just find it best to insult and belittle to intimidate and make one feel like crap bc they think that everyone has the same personality traits that motivate(d) them or that’s all they know how to do.

    I’m happy your family has had good experiences with Dino, but as aurora said, that’s not what everyone has experienced with Dean. In my opinion, Dean was not what I’d would consider “the essence of what a coach epitomizes.” We obviously had different experiences.

    And again, I believe you’re on the wrong track thinking that people aren’t taking responsibility for the own actions (or lack of actions) in this business. I don’t recall anyone blaming Dean for their quitting or failure in Amway.

  169. Joecool permalink
    January 8, 2011 6:45 pm

    Answer a simple question and it will shed much light on Dean’s “helping” people.
    My upline also taught us that we were helping and saving people. In reality we were only “helping” people who were going to buy Amway stuff plus the tools.

    How many people have built sustainable and significant incomes as a result of Dean’s mentorship?

    Conversely, how many people ended up losing their shirts following Dean’s advice? I bet there are far more people who lost out.

  170. The cult permalink
    January 8, 2011 9:59 pm

    Well it is nice to see the topics now are shifting on this blog to Amway again.
    Aurora you are a sad person with talks out of both ends. First you claim that deans always insulted people over 40 ( well that is a lie ) I worked with him for 7 yrs and he never said that type of stuff. I bet you could not produce one once of evidence to that.

    2nd you claim that you got sucked into the business ( as if you cannot take any responsibility for your own actions ) …. you claim to have driven all over building the business ( which means you where out there pitching the this business ! ) But now you act as if you where not part of the problem LOL .. only the successful ones where huh ?

    Then you blame the system for trapping you ( but it could not possibly trap others ) who the heck are you CRAZY WOMAN. That must be your nick name.

    Then you act like you have ever even meet a woman Dean has been in relationship with with ( NO you have not ). Oh and yes some blog post about Dean proves something OMG, you are crazy stupid.

    I have read tons of great things about Dean , oh yes but you just throw those out huh……. I see all the positive comments must be wrong and only you are right ( Gee what a humble person you are ).
    You should like you had a crush on Dean and he rejected you for a younger girl. You never even worked with Dean Auroa you just saw him teach from a distance.

  171. The cult permalink
    January 8, 2011 10:13 pm

    @ joe

    well there hundreds of 1000’s who are living better because of Dean teachings joe. I have seen them personally when I worked with him. I have not seen one person ( lose their shirt ) plus dude update your jargon . That is like a 80’s term.

    Funny I have already stated on this post Dean helped me make over 6 figures out side of the Amway business . In fact Joe have you not read the above post where WWDB was getting upset at Dean because he was teaching people how to make money at multiple things not just Amway.
    He has helped people in their health , music careers, movies, community, charity plus other business’s .

    You even have post on this blog from WWB folks talking about how Dean never followed their rules and the WWDB followers now even bag on Dean for being diversified. How stupid is that LOL.

    That is why WWDB got upset they want all their people to ONLY build the Amway business.

    SO Joe it is a good thing you are not a betting man because you would lose your shirt betting that Dean has not helped a ton of people . That of course would require effort to find out vs just a opinion thrown out on a post. Joe I don’t get it from what you post it really seems like you and Dean are standing for the same things, dude what gives ? You already admitted you only ever saw the guy one time speak and yet you bag on him all the time for years now..

    Any one with common sense knows the success ones do not blog on these sites all the time. So you only get the upset ones who act like they did not do exactly what the diamonds did they just failed.
    And now because they failed they act like they where not pitching the coolaid. LAMO

  172. The cult permalink
    January 8, 2011 10:29 pm

    @ Aurora
    You are right Dean cannot escape the GOOD he has done for so many of us. ( what exactly did he do to you ? ) oh yes he taught how to build Amway so what ( so did you ) you just failed.

    You can have your opinion but it does not change our experience with Dean there are tons of actual quality people out there who he has helped. Tons of actual facts vs hater blog post stating how much he has helped others. He is the ultimate giver and uplifter.

    You treat people like garbage Aurora and we can see it here on these post. We do not even need to look it up , because you post it up like a angry old woman with rollers in her hair LOL.
    Dean has won award after award, become rich, and helped folks in many areas. Now he surfs and chills out when I see him.

    Funny how susan miller post her experiences that are recent and you just blew off all the wonder things she had to say ( as if ONLY your experiences matter ) ….. This blog is not about you Aurora it is about dean and all of our experiences… not just your old lady. What a arrogant lady you are to try and turn everything back to you.

  173. Joecool permalink
    January 8, 2011 10:46 pm

    Thecult: January 8, 2011 10:13 pm

    “@ joe

    well there hundreds of 1000′s who are living better because of Dean teachings joe. I have seen them personally when I worked with him. I have not seen one person ( lose their shirt ) plus dude update your jargon . That is like a 80′s term. ”

    Joecool says: So are you seriously saying Dean Kosage helped 200,000 or more people help live better? How so? So nobody in DFean’s group ever lost money or followed bad advice fro Dean? Can you even show proof that Dean had at least 200,000 in his business over the years he was active?

    Of course you can’t. You made a baseless and unprovable claim. Here’s an easy one. Name how many emeralds and diamonds emerged as a result of Dean’s mentoring? *crickets chirping*

    Man you have to be kidding. I would bet everything I own that if you added up all of Dean’s downline and former downline and added up their business losses versus their profits, there would be a net loss with Dean and a select few making a profit.

  174. Tony permalink
    January 9, 2011 8:03 am

    Joecool – I don’t think you’re an arrogant crazy old lady who treats people like garbage or that you think that this blog is all about you. But it is apparently clear that one is desperately trying to project that image of themselves onto almost everyone else in this blog.

    I think you’ve been very level headed with some good posts. I think you’ve posted 4-5x total and each time either talked about your own experience with Dean or just asked a validating question. No where have I seen you immaturely call other bloggers names or discredit anyone else’s experiences.

    All, that fact here is we’ve all had our experiences with Dean, both good and bad at times. He’s helped some and not helped others. It’s a point of contention that can be argued and never won because everyone has had their own personal experience with the man over that last 12-15 years.

    Is Dean a different person that he was when I knew him and had my experiences? Very possible, but I don’t know bc I haven’t been around him for a long time. Ya see people, many of us are expressing our happenings when we knew Dean back in the day, others appear to be expressing their happening with the more recent Dean and that is going to be different experiences…. but in either case it doesn’t take away from what any of us experienced with Dean… knowing him, his personality, his actions and whether he did or didn’t help you.

  175. The cult permalink
    January 10, 2011 4:13 am

    @joe actually I can make those statements about Dean joe and prove them with ease !

    I have seen how many people he has helped in and out of the amway business ( why do you just keep talking about his amway business ? ) I thought this blog was about dean ? GO spread your I hate amway stuff on those sites bro. Get Off the Dean BLOG you are not wanted here.

    I can back up those claims ( a heck of a lot more then you ) …. gee he trained the airforce colonel to make 100’s of thousands I have personally met jeff and seen his checks and talked with him. I have watched his lifestyle increase for the better for almost 8yrs ( you cannot say you have studied any JOE ) I watched his wife come home to raise 2 little girls and they had the money to deal with her surviving cancer ! you dumb ass. Don’t get on this blog and tell us other bloggers we cannot prove what we see and studied.

    I saw him help Terry , another high ranking airforce officer go emerald and retire for over 10 yrs now GEE .. joe what about them ( oh and these are very sharp accomplished men and women ) in and out of the amway business. plus in this leg I saw him help another guy retire names Al .plus many others make over 50k….. ( really joe I cannot prove this ) Uh more like you cannot prove it bro … these people are real and have families and there bills do not get paid by magic LOL …I have seen lifestyle, checks, women come home to raise their childern ( omg how horrible is that )
    YOu see I think WWDB is off track and those type of systems but people helping people is cool no matter what industry you are in.

    I watched dean help another asian guy go emerald and retire in canada and make over 6 figures for a decade ( gee joe once again what kind of BS are you making up here ) Just in this leg alone I have seen many people raise their incomes over 50k !

    Oh yes then he Cd’s and teaching have enlightened and helped over 100,000 people around the world ! DID you follow dean to india this last year and see what he has done there , Did you follow him to australia ? ya i did not think so ….. Well many of us did , and many more followed his mobile alerts watched the videos , we saw the testimonies and results .

    I say bonus money that was over 500,000 that went to deans downline in just one month spread among his leaders ( how much money have people made because of you JOE ? )

  176. The cult permalink
    January 10, 2011 4:22 am

    BUT lets talk about outside of Amway

    that is just In amway , how about outside of amway ?

    His other business’s , the authors he has helped sell 1000’s of books , the music projects , the film projects……. dude you are just a EX AMROID now talking about stuff you have no clue about. If you want to talk about a personal experience about Dean then go for it but you do not have any JOE

    In fact why are you even of this blog you admitted in one of your earlier post you only ever watched dean speak once in hawaii and do not know him ( omg what a jerk to make statements about a man you have never met or dealt with )

    Have you given any money to charity , to organisations ? PLus you act as if every single relationship or detail of Deans past had to go perfect ( LOL , ) really … like who the hell can say that ?
    Dean has never claimed to be perfect or even close to it, he has never claimed to have all the answers…..he just is a ambitious kid who is making his way.

    Dean has had way more positive relationships then negative ones , try actually meeting those people as i have vs blogging joe about someone you CLAIM TO HAVE NEVER MET..

    GET OFF THIS BLOG JOE … this is a blog about dean and you have NO experience with him.
    Now Joe is you want to attack the wwdb group or Paul Tsika then I would love to give you some dirt on them. I cannot speak for the other big LOA’s out there i do not know them or there leaders.

  177. The cult permalink
    January 10, 2011 5:05 am

    @ tony
    Hey bro , get it straight i did not say Joe was a old crazy lady that was Aurora.
    Oh and yes a professional opinion about the way she is blogging can provide a valid assessment .
    I happen to be married to one of those professional therapist. Of course i am not the professional just married to one 🙂

    Joe made a dumbass comment about Dean hurting people financially ( uh gee tony ) that is NOT him blogging about HIS experience with Dean.

    Let alone is it a rational statement by someone ( it is a racist , who just does not like Amway and now attacks anyone that is a leader in Amway or was ) oh but Joe was he not in Amway as well hummm , so once again if you climbed up the later tin amway somewhere along the way you went from victim to the cause ? at what exact pin level do you go from victim poor me to the bad guy ? 4000 pin , platinum , ? ( sorry that is for JOE )

    I am only attacking people when they make false racist comments , I am not attacking anyones personal experiences during a specific time , but when people try to talk about the present and about peoples intentions then I will stand up for who needs it. I do not just do it here BTW , but this blog is about Dean so I am standing up for him when people cross the line from a experience in the past to a hater comment …. I also point out some of the bad personal experience I have had on other sites about WWDB , and Paul Tsika the pastor of WWDB who is a adulterer ! So I am not just on here for dean at all. I am here to expose the bad and highlight to good ones. Which means we could be trying to do the same thing.

    I wonder what all the minorities think of JOE’s comments…. humm he has never met dean , never had any personal experience with Dean , but he hates deans what did for a living or who he hung out with so dean must be a bad guy out to hurt people ! ( yep good old racism to the core ).
    You really do not want me to re post Joes racist type comments to the blogs where they will destroy him….. if you think I am bad dear god stay off those sites.

    Do we not make movies about this stuff in which JOE is the hater and we all cheer for forgiveness and not assuming everyone is bad ? Or the kid who needs a second chance ? No one like a hater who will not give a kid a second chance or thinks his past , controls his future.

    YOu do understand that right ? racism is not about skin color it is when you make blanket comments about peoples intentions because of what they are affiliated with , be it a church , skin color , culture ,or business.
    Hey bloggers out there what do we think about racist online ?

    I am glad to see you tony however start to realise even though your experiences with dean apparently did not go the way you wanted , that does not mean dean is a bad guy or grown up since his college years. You know a 42 yr old parent is not the same as a 26 yr old in a bad marriage.
    I am sure you are a different person as well.

    Just so you know , Dean years ago had heard about Tom your bother blogging about him. I was personally there when dean was asked about it from one of his downline at a mtg who knew it was tom and asked if they should attack TOM online or go visit him.

    Dean said ” No it was a pretty rough time around his divorce and if tom got wounded so much that he needed to blog about it he was sorry. He mentioned if Tom ever called him he would even apologise. So you see Tony I have personally watched dean deal with issues like this in the past and he has earned my respect in many areas and helped me make a ton of money outside of amway. I never made big money in amway. But then again I could not stomach the controlling nature of WWBD.

    I never remember you being a hateful guy tony ,in fact you seemed pretty mellow. I hope these positive comments help you heal as well.

  178. The cult permalink
    January 10, 2011 5:17 am

    Joecool PERMALINK
    December 29, 2010 11:52 am
    Interesting. I wonder if the truth actually lies in the middle of the road?
    As an IBO myself, I saw “emerald” Dean Kosage at local function in Hawaii. I didn’t get to speak to him in person so I don’t have an actual impression of what he’s like.

    TO quote you Joe , stop blogging about dean ! and get back to bashing Amway bro, you have no valid opinion or leg to stand on. Get back to blogging about something you do know about before you lose even more creditably on this blog. You seem to have some decent post on other sites.
    Unless you are just a attention whore using deans name to gain exposure for yourself…because that would make you as bad as the people you claim to hate.

  179. aurora permalink
    January 10, 2011 5:37 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  180. Tony permalink
    January 10, 2011 5:50 am

    Cult, you should really explore the definition of “racist”. Using “racism” as a point of this blog makes you seem ultra-unintelligent.

    And honestly Cult… your part stating @Cult– Dean said ” No it was a pretty rough time around his divorce and if tom got wounded so much that he needed to blog about it he was sorry. He mentioned if Tom ever called him he would even apologise.”
    I’m not buying it… it’s easy for Dean to just “say” that. If Dean truly felt remorse or that he wounded Tom back in the day then why wouldn’t Dean be the bigger man and call Tom himself and discuss it? Why would Tom be the one calling Dean? The person who does the hurting is the one that should be making the contact to apologize or explain their actions and try to make their “wrong” right with the other person.

    If Dean did in fact say that and put the burden on Tom calling him vs. him calling Tom, that tells a lot of who Dean still is.

    I mean think about it… let’s say something shitty happened in your life, like a parent dying and you decided to take out your frustrations, hurt, bad feelings, etc on your best friend and that best friend was like “screw you, I don’t need your crap”… would you really expect your best friend to call you back to try to be friends again? No… YOU should realize that you were the one that hurt the other person… who took out your feelings on someone else and should be the one to contact them on apologize for the things you said, the things you did and explain what happened. And it’d be easy to find other friends and just say “well, if my ex-best friend would just call me I’d explain it all to them and tell them I’m sorry… but it’s up to my ex-best friend.” That sound ridiculous to even type, but that is exactly what you’re saying Dean said… he may have hurt Tom, but it’s up to Tom to call him so he can possibly explain and apologize? That’s a crappy way to make it someone else’s problem, but yet trying to make others believe they truly are sorry.

  181. aurora permalink
    January 10, 2011 5:51 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  182. Joecool permalink
    January 10, 2011 9:39 am

    @Thecult,

    I am saying you either exaggerated or lied when you said Dean has helped hundreds of thousands of people. Then you gave 2 or 3 examples of him helping some military officers. BTW, just because you saw a check doesn’t mean they were doing so great. A check doesn’t tell a story in itself.

    Also, if we know that a platinum haas about 100 or more downline, mostly all of these downline, if they are attending functions, will have a net loss. Simple math bears that out. Thus the larger Dean’s group got, the more downline he has losing money. Its not just about Dean but any leader who sells tools.

    You cannot argue on the premise of facts so you resort to personal attacks against me. I haven’t insulted anyone here. I am just commenting based on my own experiences and what I have figured out about Amway and WWDB. Feel free to prove me wrong with facts.

  183. January 10, 2011 10:15 am

    Joe u r right. That there are many ibos under a platinum that occur a net lost. But beside Amway, isn’t that true for small biz. Ask anyone who opens a small coffee shop or a sub shop, or a covenient store. 9 out 10 times, it’s a net loss for the first few yrs. But after a few yrs just like an average platinum, profit, profit and more profit. The reason why ibos are losing their money is because they are in the system, paying their dues, but they are not putting the sys in practice. It’s no one fault. It takes lots of courage, and discipline to buy from your biz, show the plan 3 to 5 times a week, teach and duplicate. Once any Ibo has the courage to do that week after week. I don’t see how you are not platinum in 9 months to a yr. In anything: action always leads to result$

  184. Joecool permalink
    January 10, 2011 11:36 am

    Actually, businesses are not losing money. Once they open their doors and customers walk in, they are making profits. The business owner might now make up their initial investment for rent and equipment for several years but they make profits unless their product sucks. Also, as you build clientele and your business grows, your business gain equity. Thus even a Mcdonald’s owner for example, when he/she sells a McDonald’s franchise, they get a profit from selling the business plus the new owner would ante up the franchise fee.

    In Amway, you don’t own your downline. You own a percentage of their volume, provided thei move volume. The bad thing is that Amway has a lot of attrition and would make it nearly impossible to have long term sustainability once you stop building the business.

  185. aurora permalink
    January 10, 2011 11:49 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  186. January 10, 2011 12:16 pm

    You got it wrong Joe. I was not talking about losing money. I was talking about profit vs loss. Acct payable/Acct receivable. I am not talking about McDonald corporation. I am talking about mom and pop biz. At the beginning of a small biz. Acct payable will almost always be greater than Acct receivable = net lost. It does not mean you lose money. It means you are in biz. That’s why if you open a small biz and you don’t have reserve capital, you will be under in just a few months. It takes times for a small biz to generate profit. You need to have good products, provide good service then you will develop a good clients base. Well Amway biz works the same way. You just don’t have a brick building and $1000/month overhead. Ibos don’t grasp the system. They think just because they are in the core system, their biz should just grow. And when it does not, they blame their upline and Amway

  187. Joecool permalink
    January 10, 2011 12:56 pm

    You still have a much greater chance of success with a brick and mortar business than an Amway business. The system doesn’t work period. There is zero evidence that the system actually works. If it did what it is supposed to, Amway’s sales would grow consistently year after year but in North America, it looks to be declining. There’s a reason for that.

  188. January 10, 2011 4:36 pm

    Lots of brick and mortar biz are closing their doors today. Check out a plaza near you. They have more empy then occupied. Some plazas chit down entirely. What evidence do u want? Are you saying that the platinums, the q12, the emeralds, the diamonds don’t make money? They don’t gave success? Amway in international biz, you can just look at 1 branch to say it’s a declining biz, the international market is open to every Ibo. All the biz overseas are own by Americans. Because the biz was founded in america. Amway grows every yr while others biz are trying to survive. Forbes magazine put Amway as the 43rd biggest private company in america. Its an american biz. Amway has to report all the money that generate outside of USA. Just like walnart, coca cola, Microsoft….if Amway is doing well overseas, If I were you, I would go there and build an Amway biz. The reason why Amway is not booming in america like it should is because here people are laid back, too much TV shows, distractions, they don’t want to work hard, they like to say “yes sir” they like “job” they want government bail out because the unemployment rate is near 10%. the American people are spoiled, they have it too good. The unemployment rate is at 10% and u r crying? Come on!! That’s america now. A bunch of cry babies.

  189. Joecool permalink
    January 10, 2011 5:07 pm

    Seriously, you believe that an opportunity where you basically have less than a 1% chance of reaching platinum (where you can still lose money) is a good opportunity? Most people would be far better off working a second job at minimum wage.

  190. January 10, 2011 5:55 pm

    Among registered ibos, yes you have less than 1%. but among biz builders ( core, showing the plan, meeting, functions, study the products, used them, listen, read, teach, duplication) among those guys, you have over 50% to reach platinum in less than 2 yrs. My upline did. It’s called attitude. I may not have it, you may not have it, but those that do can build an Amway biz in 6 months. And it has been done. If you look at percentage. Are you saying no one should try to become a fortune 500 company CEO? Because less than .001 % of us can reach that level of success. Are you going to have blog telling all Americans to give up on their dreams of becoming a CEO, a government law maker, a multi millionaire, a super star….. All these positions less than 1% of us can get them, but any one can go after them just like becoming an Amway star. It’s 10 times easier to become an Amway diamond then a walnart top executive. Those top executives don’t gave it easy. They work day and night 24/7 just like an Amway diamond, just a basketball star…. Freedom is reachable but no one will hand it to you, you have to go get it

  191. January 10, 2011 9:23 pm

    Everyone:

    Let’s steer the discussion back to the topic at hand. There are plenty of other threads where you can debate the success rates of the business.

  192. aurora permalink
    January 11, 2011 2:51 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  193. January 11, 2011 6:07 am

    @ amthrax I am on track. When you look how biz work. Then you might understand that Dean is not really the problem. Most ibos thought their biz belong to their uplines, and they want their uplines to do everything for them, when their uplines ask them to get off their butt, they take it personal. Base on what I see here, it looks like Dean was a little pushy. That was his style of teaching. He is your biz partner, not your husband. People don’t quit their jobs when they don’t like their boss. If they do, the unemployment rate would be at 50%. a professional learns how to work with somebody despite their differences. If you are looking for the perfect partner or mentor, you will find yourself trying to do everything alone. And that’s not Amway style. A job is what you need for the rest of your life. Working for someone else or self employed.

  194. Tony permalink
    January 11, 2011 6:24 am

    No one has said Dean is THE problem, but he is/was PART of the problem. A little pushy? C’mon. And he’s not a business partner per se, he’s a mentor and one that is to teach and help you grow your business to help his own business. Believe it or not, IBOs are in it for themselves, not others.

    And please don’t compare quitting your Amway business vs quitting your job. Those are totally 2 different things. Amway is presented as a “part time” opportunity… much like a part time job to make extra money. I don’t know anyone that wouldn’t or hasn’t quit a part-time job/opportunity because they don’t like their “boss”… it happens all the time… especially if that part-time job isn’t making them that much money (or in Amway’s case is netting a loss). Dean was high maintenance and a drama queen… sorry, but don’t know a lot of people that want to hang around that part-time scenario for too long.

  195. Joecool permalink
    January 11, 2011 9:24 am

    How much “success” fruit is on Dean’s tree? That question seems to have been glossed over without a real answer.

  196. Tony permalink
    January 11, 2011 10:13 am

    Ya know, Joecool, that is an excellent point. I think another website from Ty Tribble has financial documentation from when he was an Emerald and going thru his divorce with Becca. But I know it wasn’t anything what’s they proclaim an Emerald pin to be making.

  197. aurora permalink
    January 11, 2011 2:03 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  198. Tony permalink
    January 11, 2011 2:27 pm

    I will bet my left testicle and both thumbs that not even 15% of CORE people make platinum in 2 years… and believe me I’m quite fond of my left testicle and thumbs.

    I’d too would love to see the figures to back that one up, not just the voice one person’s upline that did it. I think we all know these figures don’t exist bc how can one measure those that were CORE for 2 years and didn’t go platinum and quit. But hey, if it’s true then everyone should be able to go Diamond in 12 months or so like Bill & Sandy Hawkins from MN did.

  199. Tony permalink
    January 11, 2011 2:29 pm

    Sorry Amthrax, my last post was off topic.

    So does anyone have any recent updates on Dino? *trying to start a new arena

  200. Tom permalink
    January 11, 2011 2:48 pm

    @Mozart

    Sorry, but I had to come out of retirement, I couldn’t resist 😉

    The way the business works is inherently a chunk of the problem…it’s tough! You have to either have a certain set of characteristics/tools or have the discipline to gather or work on acquiring those characteristics. You need to be persuasive, outgoing, personable, confident, speak rather well, enthusiastic, have knowledge of the industry etc…then when it starts to grow you have to have leadership & managerial skills to boot. You’ve got to sell and motivate or you’re done! Even if you relied heavily on the system (just getting people to meetings and giving them tapes/cds)…you still have to sell.

    I would think we could ALL agree that MLMs are a tough business to build and manage. It can be extremely frustrating with the “no’s”, no shows, attrition, being made fun of etc etc (experienced it all). Now, add to that an upline that you really do not want to edify or follow in life…that creates a problem with the cornerstone of WW…duplication. After awhile, I decided to take the mental tools I had gathered from the books and skill sets I had learned from the biz and applied them to another venture.

    So, stating that Dean wasn’t the problem is only half correct, in my situation…his personality was definitely part of the problem…I know 5-6 others that left for similar reasons…a few in my business and a few cross line. What percentage of people quit jobs because of their boss or management vs quitting because the work/project just suck? I own a staffing company at least 50% of the motivation for searching for another position is a boss or management.

    The dichotomy of these blogs are fascinating! I’ve learned that the human body and mind wants stability (homeostasis)…it doesn’t like conflicting accounts…especially when that person has put time/effort into creating that thought process…and when there is a vested interest those thought patterns.When people get conflicting accounts to their own experiences, or in this case, perceptions (most people in his group or cross line have never worked with him directly) it doesn’t sit well. Just like most of the Tiger Woods fans PERCEIVED him as a clean cut, morally good, family man….well, we know how that turned out. Could say the same for Kobe. Now, not to say they weren’t the best in their industry, but they weren’t what we all admired over the years. I was big fans of both as I perceived them to be good individuals as well as athletes at the top of their games…someone who I could root for. Can you see the parallel? I’m not saying that Dean hasn’t done some great things with his skill sets…on a ferry ride to BC, I’ve seen him hand a little kid, who was desperately trying to watch the bigger kids play a video game, $5 in quarters…that little guy thought he won the lottery. I’m just shedding a little light into the darkness of many perceptions. I hope Dean is a different person…excellent! Big pins in MLMs have a chance to help or hurt A LOT of people, depending on where their hearts lie.

    Cult….I’m now comparing Dean to Tiger and Kobe, not Hitler…hope you appreciate 😉

  201. January 11, 2011 5:34 pm

    Okay, here’s a topic that we can discuss. What is Dean doing these days? In addition to his Amway business, I have read he’s involved in entertainment — music and movies. What has he done in that arena? Is he a promoter, producer or talent?

  202. The cult permalink
    January 12, 2011 2:11 am

    @aurora OMG you unreal , now you trying to say if dean was a great guy ( then how did the world get along without him LOL ) you are such a insane lady . what is up with your GOD like following language, are you really that much of a follower ? You say you did not like dean the minute you met him good for you. So what that does not mean he is a bad person.

    Plus who said the world needed amway to get along ? what is wrong with you ?

    All the positive people have said is in our experiences Dean helped us massively.
    And how would you ever be able to talk about my take on women ? I have only talked about my take on you are a person and on how you speak the language of a victim and a hater.

  203. The cult permalink
    January 12, 2011 2:16 am

    @! joe , again , stop telling me what I have or have not seen. I did not say I have just seen a few checks of a few people. I SAID i have seen over a 100,000 peoples lives improve over a decade. In many different ways. Money is not just the only one. You cannot tell me what I have seen or try to pretend it is not there. YOu have done no investigation of any kind and you do not know Dean.
    Worse as most rational people know judging a person who deals with that many people on a site that is geared to Amway haters is stupid.

  204. The cult permalink
    January 12, 2011 2:44 am

    wow, it is so funny you negative people on here do not like it when you get attacked. Look how many of you talk about me attacking your personally in your post LOL . You say things like “don’t attack me personally ” like JOE ( yet he attacks dean ) you all attack dean personally , you have attacked him , his business , his relationship with people, his desires , his intentions, oh and yes any thing he is up to.

    Again I thought this was a blog about Dean and your personal experience with him NOT your opinion of who or what he is up to today ?

    @ tony , I have to stop you tony ,
    you act like you ever really coached with Dean , and you did not .
    Plus it is not deans job to call tom dean did not even know he was upset with him , plus your assumption is that if they fell apart it was all deans fault LOL ….. ya right ….. If tom is a real man he will call dean vs blog about him like a scared child ..if Tom has character he will approach dean in a kind godly way and let dean know he was hurt or offended back then. That is TOMS responsibility. GEE TONY better learn this before you raised kids ! Then if Dean does not react well or take that opportunity to try and heal the past ( then and only then is it Deans issue ). TOM never according to his group and dean never brought up all this stuff about dean back then he just quit. OH sure now you can bring it up as if you did not want to spread negative ( BS ).

    It is funny you guys keep your feelings all I am saying is there are way more people who respect and are thankful to Dean then there are negative. Like 99% to 1 % …. you people are the 1% thats all.
    and others ned to know that.

  205. The cult permalink
    January 12, 2011 2:56 am

    @aurora I am not talking about Dean helping authors on the book list of WWDB ( you dumb assumptive crazy girl ) Once again your rage and false assumptions are leaking out.

    I am talking about the books and Authors he has helped since he left WWDB that are not on any amway book list ( what is wrong with you Aurora seriously get help).

    You talk about me not taking your post out of Context ( really you the queen of that )
    Humm lets see if Amway is good “then how did the world survive without it ? “uh ya what a stupid analogy….. can you say ” out of context ”

    Oh wait I see if I think dean is a great guy , who has helped me make millions outside of Amway then I must be a ” DINO worshiper ” OMG please you are embarrassing yourself… really you should stop. again with the GOD like statements.

    YOU NEVER DEALT WITH DEAN OR COACHED WITH HIM … get off this blog , you where just a lady in the crowd. Who is pissed off that you got in amway.

    Not all amway is bad but I have to agree i did not like the worship nature of wwdb and as i have said many times in these post, dean grew out of that fast after his divorce. You all where caught up in it just like I was and Dean helped me get out.

  206. The cult permalink
    January 12, 2011 3:34 am

    @ tom , yes I am happy now TOM , your post was more rational and now we can talk at a higher level.You are correct it depends on where a persons heart lies and people with large audiences can lead people by accident or intent into many areas.

    It is this awareness that Dean brought to my attention as he started to question the leaders in wwdb. Since I was older then Dean and i was making decent money outside of amway along with a good size family dean came to me for advice. In fact he came to me many times as he was gaining the strength to break away from WWDB.

    At first Dean awakened this after his divorce and having a child of course gives your massive perspective ( I hope you can relate tom with your kids ). You did not see dean become a father or raise his daughter. He was lied to by greg Duncan and others that if he built it big enough to make it to management team that he could then have the power to change things.
    That was the first time I had dean seek me out.

    Then after being on management team Dean realised he had been lied to, and in fact WWDB was now de edifying him because he was teaching on stage to not be a follower and to stop the guru type stuff . To live your life now , to make money in many ways , basically the truth. So Dean then invited me to a private gathering where he brought in a few pastors and other large business owners outside of the amway business and asked us all what he should do. He had people who counted on him like your platinum leg tom , good people with kids. He was seeing the people he brought in getting sucked into something he no longer believed in.
    We all gave him our advice and dean knew to follow our advice he had to walk away from a massive tool income and to be slandered by the cult like followers of wwdb. This was a big decision Tom , and Dean walked away from all that tool money and found a way to not walk away from his people. He started his own LOA that is not focused on tool money and teach’s totally different.
    So yes I am impressed with the person I have watched dean turn into. I also hope I had some part in it.

    I just asked my wife this because , you have not taken any responsibility for your falling out with Dean on any of these post. You seem the most rational so what is up.

    Not saying it was your fault but what have you done to heal it ? You have children, you do realise that teaching them to blog negative things about their old friends online is not correct. You where friends with Dean I was there. So was your platinums today, we all where friends.

    To most people who deal with the human mind it is obvious you are self medicating ( or where ) by blogging about him. You do not seem like a guy who needs to spread negative about anyone , or at least I hope not for your children’s sake. Kids do not need that example. So you are just self medicating then lets just jump to the obvious .

    So my 1st question is if you and dean spoke and he apologised for hurting you in the past , would you take any of that responsibility ? If he agreed that wwdb had some pretty cult like issues’s and that even he had to break free from them would you say congrats to him for breaking free or try to still blame him for WWDB. You both where so young back then dude. COME ON.

    my 2nd question is would you accept his apology ( and i am not saying he needs to give you one )
    But I have seen Dean do many wonderful things and he loves to make fun of himself.
    I am sure you saw Dean in a very tough time if he was leading up to a divorce, anyone who has gone through that pain will relate.

    I am just curious as to the type of person you are plus I think the rational parents who might read this blog would also want to hear this answer.

    The rest of these bloggers appear to just haters and it is the same 3 to 4 people talking to each other in a world of 6 billion plus LOL…. not one of them is looking to solve or heal anything.

  207. aurora permalink
    January 12, 2011 4:25 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  208. Amdroid permalink
    January 12, 2011 7:35 pm

    @Aurora – check out this link of Dino’s past, written by Dean himself. I’m sure it will shed some light on experiences concerning Dean and where his treatment and thought of women derived from.

    http://deankosage.com/history

    Hope this helps clear a lot of things up.

  209. the cult permalink
    January 13, 2011 1:41 am

    Aurora
    Again with the crazy talk , so sad. You are not having to prove anything you say on this blog if it is negative and you chalk it all up to your experience. Yet when others on here point out Dean has helped people you suddenly want proof vs just their testimonies of what they have witnessed first hand.

    What kind of crazy double standard is that! Lets see you proof any of what you are saying!
    I Dare you , show me proof Dean mocked people’s parents …come on crazy girl not just some personal story or comment you are famous for taking out of context. Oh thats right I bet you can’t.
    Prove to any of us on this BLOG that you even ever 2 times got one on one advice from Dean.

    Oh I see you call it “flinging out ridiculous statements about Dean helping authors ” ( wow ) how did you jump to once again that false assumption ? Again really you are embarrassing yourself.
    You can make stupid comments about dean with no proof only your past history ( oh wait you don’t have any with him LOL ) …..

    Ok lets talk about just 2 of the new best seller books Dean massively helped
    well gee lets try the new 3ft from gold book , where Dean promoted the book , held the red carpet event for it with the top famous authors in the world flew in for ? He presented on stage , is credited on the DVD of the making of the book , or wait for it and had his mobile company help promote it to the best seller list!

    How about the new ( NY best seller )
    Joe Sweeneys ( brett favre agent during his day ) new book ( networking is a contact sport ) funny joe even writes about dean in his book. I saw dean speak at the SANG event in L.A ( that stands for speaker , author , networking ,group ) …. again Aurora , you need to stop blogging about stuff you have no clue about ( it is sad ).

    GO take your hater mentality elsewhere , You have had no Personal contact or experience with Dean , even if you did it has not been for over a decade ( wow ) …. He was just one of the big pins you listened to while you where pitching Amway. In fact he was not even that big back then.

    So now you can say sorry I just proved it ( look up the books ) buy them go get the DVD , go meet the authors in person , attend a book signing…. or just admit you where wrong.

    Funny I read the link you posted about Deans history , How do you think that makes Dean look bad , it makes him look great!

    As I stated in my first post I am a stock traders so my hours are these and I deal offshore as well as with the east coast. But oh yes you once again just assumed , jumped to a false assumption, and accused me of speaking a second language LOL…. would that matter ?

  210. happy girl permalink
    January 13, 2011 2:24 am

    I wonder why my first comments on here where not posted?
    Thank you Cult for blowing the whistle on Paul Tsika. I started to check out many of your post since then.

    I have to agree with the cult after reading many of the post on this blog. It does seem like the same 3 to 4 people talking back and forth.

    I also knew Dean some of my girl friends over the years dated him. They had wonderful things to say about him. So I am not sure where Aurora thinks she would be a authority on dean and how he treats women. She seems to be very hurt lady for sure. Did she try to date dean? As a woman , I will tell you she speaks as if dean rejected her in the past.

    I did notice that many of the married men where very intimated by dean and resentful for him being able to date some pretty beautiful women. Many of the guys in Amway could not pull women like that due to being boring and not cultured.

    I would get dirty looks from the old house wife’s all the time myself. My husband and I where both models and we where blessed to travel as models while we where young. But I can tell you being a beautiful women in Amway was tough.

    The old women always tried to have us young ones always cover up ! Tired to steal our joy of being youthful. They tried to use religion to get us to where one piece bathing suits.

    I noticed the beautiful young women ( who are rare in Amway ) where attracted to dean being a dreamer and his kind heart. So opposite to what some of the negative bloggers on here are saying.

    Odd how these bloggers would feel they know more about dean then his girl friends would.
    My girl friends who dated dean had a great time. In fact they still try to set him up , but I hear he is in a pretty serious relationship now with a lady who is a best selling author in fact.

  211. happy girl permalink
    January 13, 2011 2:27 am

    I remember dean sharing some of these stories with us, I always loved the way deans mind worked.http://deankosage.com/history
    What a different way to grow up on boats.

  212. cult permalink
    January 13, 2011 3:17 am

    Rock on Dean ! tons of us are so excited you have broken away from WWDB and thanks for always leading change bro. I heard your india trip was amazing! If you see this give me a call bro we gotta hit up the east coast again. If not I will reach out to you this month.

  213. aurora permalink
    January 13, 2011 5:11 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  214. Tony permalink
    January 13, 2011 6:17 am

    Aurora’s comment made me think… are there even any “We Love Dino” type blogs out there at all? I couldn’t find any in a quick search.

    You’d think with all these “negative” blogs about him the Dino worshippers would start their own crusade to counteract it all. I can imagine how one of their blogs would go…

    “Dino is so inspirational and has changed my life!! I actually got to talk to him and he accidentally spit on me… I haven’t washed my face since!! He’s so Dreamy!!” —- PUKE

  215. aurora permalink
    January 13, 2011 7:10 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  216. Tony permalink
    January 13, 2011 8:28 am

    Maybe Dino or his groupies will have him cryogenically frozen so he can be resurrected later on.

    Or better yet, maybe they will freeze him in carbonite like Han Solo.

  217. cult permalink
    January 14, 2011 1:41 pm

    OH guess what I just found , as I did some follow up on the joe thorpe blog post about him and dean.
    I actually called dean on this one and asked him if he even knew Joe , he said yes.

    He was surprised to hear that Joe had blog about him in a negative way so he said he would reach out to joe and what was up.

    Then I found this other blog post from joe Joseph Thorpe says:
    November 5, 2009 at 7:25 pm
    What can be said about a person who has truly made a change in your life? Sure you can follow the normal route and offer words of praise and gratitude but in my opinion that seems degrading. I think a chance encounter with Dean is not by accident nor should it be taken lightly there is a reason He is who He is and there is a reason He can do what we all know he can do so very well. Some people in life are just there to not help you become something better but to help you realize that you were great from the start and dare you to remember who you are. In life there are Leaders and Followers and i think Dean Screwed the templates up when he became Free. Possessing the abilities to move people in the right direction and also walk beside them as a friend create the uniqueness that is Dean Kosage and cannot be encapsulated in a block of text on a blog stuck somewhere in a phone line over New Mexico. To put it bluntly if you ever meet the guy throw away your ego, listen to what he say’s and accept it as truth as its the only chance you will ever get to ask the mirror mirror in the wall who is the greatest of them all. To Dean Kosage i say thank you sir for your reflections

    So it appears Joe is swings his opinion constantly or that was not really joe earlier.

  218. cult permalink
    January 14, 2011 2:01 pm

    @ aurora
    Dean did not need to change after his divorce , it was his ex that went to jail. Gee another major assumption on your part about a man you only listened to in a crowd a few time ( and that is if you are even telling the truth about that )

    ONCE again your facts are so off track it exposes you as a lier. You say you where there when dean went though his divorce huh ? then how could you possible think he was already a diamond who then fell back to emerald ( man you are stupid ) .. Gee like the total opposite happened.

    Dean was a emerald when he meet his ex wife then they rushed into a marriage in 6 months then they divorced as a emerald . Yes dean did give up many of his legs to his ex wife at this point.

    Then dean went diamond 12 months after his divorce because he went a built a new team.
    This is fact and is backed up on amway charts , wwdbs charts , and deans CD’s. OH and to any of us that really where there as this all happened or have accurate memories. YOU ARE a lier .

    Heck even the videos of Dean crossing stage holding up his daughter on stage as he crossed as a new diamond prove this ! Once again this is nothing about your personal experience and you are now spreading lies and hate on this blog. Shame on you.

    So again Aurora you are just making a fool out of your self as you ONCE AGAIN talk about things beyond your experience.

    It was Dean who showed kindness to his EX wife and spoke fondly about her on his CD’s.
    It was also Dean who helped her move on and in fact even traveled with her to diamond club as he created a fun safe place for his daughter.

    Again I am not asking you to prove anything I am pointing out ( constantly ) how you keep confusing this blog being about someones experiences with Dean Vs their opinion about dean and what he is doing now or his intentions beyond your personal experience.

    You keep talking about things you openly admit you have no idea about.
    1 you never spent time with Dean.
    2 you can never prove in his talks he just insulted crowds constantly ( today or while you where there) … gee if that was the case it is odd he is still one of the most popular speakers.
    3 But since his talk are recorded It is easy to prove he did not insult the audience as you ( insinuate )

  219. happy girl permalink
    January 14, 2011 2:20 pm

    Well aurora, I was just emailed by the cult about your comments.
    I expressed how I saw the wwdb older people treat those of us who where in our younger years.

    I did not mention if you do not click with Dean that you are fat and old. Those are totally different subjects sweetheart.

    You seem to think anyone who likes Dean or gained value from him is now in a category of being a worshiper. In fact it appears Tony feels the same way. That is a very controlling type of approach you have.

    We are free to express our opinions on this blog and that is all I did and now you put me into a category because I do not agree with you ?

    Then you thrown in some ” short joke about Dean ” who is not that sort. This does not make you come across as a rational person or classy person. In fact you come across and if you are just filled with hate.

    I notice the cult is throwing that same language back at you recently on these blogs and you do not appreciate it, and yet you are the one doing it. He is only asking you be rational in your post.

    It does not appear to me that anyone is asking you to change your opinion , only to keep it at that.
    You are just being corrected on the false assumptions, timelines , and gossip beyond your personal experience. No one is correcting you on what actual experiences are.

    My friends and I have had nothing but wonderful times with Dean, and his friends. He is a great person to travel with and can deal with many other cultures. He is not the typical american traveler, in fact it is nice to see many americans like Dean becoming more global.

    If you are above average and a classy person, Dean is a great person to know not only for any of his business’s but just as a friend. That is my opinion.

  220. the cult permalink
    January 14, 2011 3:01 pm

    I love the idea of the new book Dean is coming out with called Defining Moments.
    I just heard Dean some folks talking about it on a podcast .

  221. the cult permalink
    January 14, 2011 3:09 pm

    Here is some of the great projects that Dean and His friends get behind.
    I remember when Dean first started talking about this cause , and how POD and his authors friends where going to put their energy behind this.http://dean-kosage.net/2009/11/04/rachels-challenge/

  222. the cult permalink
    January 14, 2011 3:25 pm

    @ tony
    wow, really…. there are tons of wonderful things about dean out there . Do you not know how to use the internet. Here let me help you.http://dean-kosage.com/ there are plenty of testimonies from people on there about Dean , that do not come from a site that use to be focused on the negative stories.
    Apparently on this blog is you post some positive stories you get attacked by the same 3 bloggers. So of course most of the people who are not willing to spend the time defending their positions would post elsewhere vs here.

    Plus many of the folks experiences with dean now have nothing to do with his Amway business.
    But I get it you guys are stuck on his college years as he was going from emerald to diamond. So you post here.

  223. aurora permalink
    January 15, 2011 4:39 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  224. aurora permalink
    January 15, 2011 4:58 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  225. Tony permalink
    January 15, 2011 10:46 am

    @Aurora – Isn’t it funny how Cult portrays that any police statements that are online are untrue and that everything Dino says is the truth. I guess I wouldn’t expect anything less from someone who is trying to discredit Rebecca and her mom’s statements as they are damning statements against Dino’s character. But I’ve yet to hear or find the phone recording that Cult talks about (and we’ve asked Cult to provide a link). Cult is obviously trying to persuade everyone that reads this that Rebecca was all in the wrong and Dean did nothing. Sorry, but Dino’s personality type is being a master of deception and spinning the truth. I mean when you’re in the lime light all eyes are on you and anything that does happen like this needs to disappear or be covered up (be it a celebrity, CEO, sports athelete, etc.) But for me it’s not hard at all to believe he did all those things in the girls’ statement, but then he called the cops and played the victim, lied and spun what really happened. In the heat of the moment things are said back and forth and I’m sure whatever was recorded was due to Becca being sick and tired of Dino and his crap and possibly did freak out – who wouldn’t after being verbally and possibly physically abused… but I’m sure this phone recording was taken out of context and Dino in now way provoked anything at all but used this recording as “proof” it was ALL her and her mother.

    My wife’s ex-husband has being doing this since their divorce over 10 years ago… making up lies, dragging us through the court system bc my wife divorced and NO ONE does that to HIM. My wife’s ex is even so slick that he’s gotten their children to turn against my wife (and he’s still doing it), so it’s not hard to believe Dino has done the same w their daughter. In fact, alienation happens all the time and those types of people have no concern of who they hurt (even their own children) as long as they get what they want, hurt the other parent and keep looking like they didn’t do anything wrong. The end justifies the means.

    Were the girls’ statements 100% truthful? IDK, maybe not, but I don’t doubt that most of it is true as I can see the actions they describe in their statements happening. But as Tom pointed out… how does Becca get the drop on an exceptionally trained martial artist like Dean?

    So ya Cult, besides the “because he said so” defense, how does one defend that?

  226. January 15, 2011 10:47 am

    Everyone:

    I’ve posted a new blog post where I look into the identities of The Cult and Happy Girl. Are they simply different faces of Dean Kosage himself?

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/the-cult-happy-girl-and-susan-miller-dean-kosage-you-decide/

    This is something a number of you have been speculating about recently. Let’s continue the discussion here, but please stop by to leave your thoughts over on the new post!

  227. January 15, 2011 12:35 pm

    Ha!

    Kosage just got spanked splendidly! What a goof.

  228. aurora permalink
    January 15, 2011 1:25 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  229. Vogel permalink
    January 15, 2011 6:03 pm

    Everything I’ve read about this guy screams manipulative, angry, sociopathic liar. The amazing thing is that he makes so many lives miserable just to make about 100K a year, while traveling constantly and working 6 days a week.

    What a nightmare scenario that someone should have to be that big of a dick just to crack 6 figs. I guess Dean will be working twice as hard now that he has to pay spousal and/or child support. He seems like the type who’ll turn out to be a deadbeat dad.

    Not exactly the same as the picture of the good life that’s sold to the distributors is it? It’s all the same old lies, fake smiles, and chronic BS (and a little Mel Gibson-like domestic violence to boot).

  230. rlaurens permalink
    January 16, 2011 12:20 am

    Yup, Dino’s name is trademarked, just search here:
    http://tess2.uspto.gov/

    Fortunately, using trademark in criticism is protected by fair use doctrine 🙂

  231. Amdroid permalink
    January 16, 2011 6:24 am

    Very good info to know. Thank you rlaurens!!

    Bloggers should use Dean’s real given first name… William. Can you imagine? Please welcome to the stage… you’re speaker on sociopathic and narcissistic behavior… DICK KOSAGE!

  232. happy girl permalink
    January 17, 2011 12:05 pm

    Wow,you really cannot the fact 1000’s of people like Dean. In fact now you are tying to say even those of us on here must be Dean. How sad for all of you. So you have noticed that a few of us decided to stand up for Dean on the web and are talking and blogging at the same time on chat so what?

    But trying to say this is all now some mastermind plan of Deans is funny. You guys really give him to much credit. You all seem to be a little star struck.

    For the rational non haters who read these post you will notice who is rational and how is not. You can tell who has a victim mentality and who shows understanding.

  233. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 12:16 pm

    LOL , now you are trying to shift the direction again huh?
    You got busted for for telling lies and now you want to discredit the positive people huh.

    Really you guys are Quoting police reports?

    You are reporting NONE of the actual police reports or the findings !
    You are blogging about the girls written response’s before they where thrown out and the Becca was taken to jail.
    Those are not police reports of the actual events that is a one sided view and Deans side is not told , or is the actual police reports. NICE try.

    So for those of us who actually have a brain stop insulting us with false statements. You people talk so much about how you do not like to be mislead and yet you are doing it constantly on this blog.

    Now that I have spread the word out to a few folks who know Dean and we are starting to co-ordinate and blog at the same time now.
    So you are trying to shame us for that LOL.

    Gee is that not what you have been doing now for years just to up your rankings on the web.

  234. January 17, 2011 12:17 pm

    @Happy Girl and The Cult:

    Rational people seeing multiple comments posted from “multiple people” from the exact same static ip address can infer a few things, none of which support your argument.

    Sorry, nice try there to deflect the discussion. There’s very little you can do to hide the fact that you’ve been seriously pwned.

    Note to all: While they have changed their static IP address, The Cult and Happy Girl are still using commenting from the same IP address.

  235. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 1:43 pm

    Amthrax , you mean the fact that some of us have gathered to blog about your blog at the same time is somehow a bad thing? LOL really , or the fact that we are at coffee shop blogging on many sites is wrong?

    Hey I know Amthrax why don’t you come down to the cafe and tell all of us that since we are blogging and enjoying coffee and pastries that it makes us somehow look bad ( dude you are so lame ).

    Plus we are blogging on many topics and collaborating to make sure we have the facts straight , unlike you guys. We are doing actual investigations and only posting things that we all agree can be proven. This is what people want , not random gossip. Responsible people double check their info before posting it up.

    So far our Collaboration has proven the following below.

    1 Tom and Tony not dealt with Dean in over 10years. ( and tony never really did )
    2 Joe cool has never met Dean
    3 most of the negative post have never meet dean
    4 Bryan G is being investigated by the FBi ( who you quoted as a source )
    5 Joe T is a going to court over some crimes that put him the sex offender categories( who you allowed to post ) Really ????
    6 Joe himself claims to have not written that blog post you put up. But you wont take it off because you don’t care about truth you only want negative stories. You do not care if the negative stories are true but you will not post or back up anything positive.

    So uh yes Bro it takes a group effort to keep track of all the false stuff you are throwing out there.
    Together we can check our facts and compare notes. WOW what a concept!

    So let the SAME IP ADDRESS be known ( wow you are so brilliant ).
    In fact you can expect much more of this it is how we meet up to compare notes.

    Oh and yes it must be wrong that some of us have decided to stand up for Dean, but it is ok that you all have gained up on him ( wow )…..

  236. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 1:53 pm

    ATTENTION EVERYONE 🙂

    The host of this site has never met at one location to blog with others on a common topic.
    So much for being a activist. Just wait till you see what we do about Paul Tsika as a team on blogs
    ( oh wait for it …… all at the same IP address in groups)

    The team will be comparing notes as we make live phone calls to his old church’s and multiple victims and then posting what we find.

    You see we came together to post about Paul , and you just seem to be noticing the positive stuff about Dean. As we are getting started.

    We are forming teams around the country who will be gathering to focus on Paul. Just like you have about Amway.

    And yes many of us will be at the same IP ADDRESS … is it possible you are only use to non organised efforts?

    If anyone reading this would like to join us on this please let me know.

  237. Tom permalink
    January 17, 2011 2:38 pm

    the cult:

    Now that we are on a rational wavelength for conversation I wanted ask a couple things.

    1) Where are you from originally? You’ve made it clear in your blogs you were part of the ‘inner circle’ of Dean and was “working with him directly” (1/8/2011 post). You had to have been from N Cal area (Brown & Pennington), Portland area (Hayes), Seattle area (Kosage et al) or Vancouver area (Eng). It appears you are living in So Cal (Encinitas)…did you always live in Encinitas or did you relocate to So Cal after Dean did? I don’t remember anyone in Dean’s “circle” that was from So Cal. You seemed to be very knowledgeable of Dean’s life and activities during the late 90’s…as though you were “there” (Seattle) during his divorce etc. That’s the angle you took when attempting to discredit my post in 2002 and a few on this site. I’m guessing/assuming you were from Seattle…but now live in Encinitas?

    2) You stated on 12/29/2010 at 6:11 pm “as I said I watched Tom give mtgs”. That would be impossible, I never did a meeting for anyone other than those in my group (IA, IL, AZ). That statement has to be false…you stated you were in Tony M’s group, not mine. I never had meetings while at major functions. Unless you were in my group, I’m going to have assume that statement was used only to try and convince the readers of this blog that you actually knew me. There is one person in Encinitas, CA that has seen me do meetings in Iowa City and Chicago (sponsored by Patrick), but that person wasn’t in Tony M’s biz.

    3) You are still blogging about the “real” police reports vs. Rebecca’s that was “thrown out”. I don’t understand why you don’t just post a link to the 911 call or to the actual documents on his divorce? Since you actually investigated it, just post it: 12/28/2010 1:33 am “I know because I actually investigated beyond the scott larson fake post….” Just post your findings and what you did to investigate and come to “the truth”, it would definitely change my thoughts of him karate chopping his mother in law etc. You could single handedly stop the so called “false accusations” surrounding Dean’s divorce. You’ve had 3 weeks to post it, but nothing…that one post would do more for your cause of defending Dean all the name calling and spin tactics you’ve posted. I just don’t get it, with all the investigation you’ve done, just share it…that simple.

    4) You haven’t commented on the fact that your blogs and happy girls are coming from the same location/IP address. Care to explain rationally vs name calling and accusations of all the bloggers lying.

    5) 12/28/2010 4:03 “I have heard tons of stuff about you over the years and about your wife.” You blogged that you knew all sorts of stuff about me and my wife as you were defending Dean’s moral compass…again, that would be impossible as I married her 4 years after I left this business?! Care to explain that rationally? Or was it a ploy to try and get readers to think you actually knew me, so then you could try to discredit any of my posts?

    Please answer rationally or don’t bother at all.

  238. Knowledge permalink
    January 17, 2011 3:00 pm

    From a rational 3rd party watching this blog unfold. The cult & happy girl, could you tell me what coffee shop was open between 1:41 am and 3:17 am on a Thursday (1/13/2011) ? If you guys want to be taken seriously on blog sites around the country to defend people or tear down others (Tsika), I suggest coming up with a game plan that does not make you look deceitful in nature. It appears you have been exposed of running some sort of spin campaign and then spin more. Oh the tangled webs we weave…

    All the time I spent around Dean and the other large pins, this statement best represents many of them. Dean was especially good with deceiving people.

    “Deception is a false reality imposed on a true reality. It is a fragile and complex weaving of truth, half truths’, lies and lies of omission. To successfully deceive another or several people, one must be skilled in the art of deception. To create a deception worthy of belief one must be able to create plausible details that help create the illusion of truth. It is the details that people listen to and remember and the one deceiving is obligated to remember these detail in order to avoid having the lie exposed. The problem with remembering the lies we tell is that all people are basically good and we tend to forget the bad things we’ve done. In order to successfully perpetuate deception, the liar must be willing to live that lie when necessary. This becomes the tangled web we weave, especially when first we practice to deceive.”
    -unknown

  239. aurora permalink
    January 17, 2011 3:04 pm

    Um, Cult;

    why would we care what you say about Paul Tsika?

  240. Knowledge permalink
    January 17, 2011 3:27 pm

    The cult, on 10/29/2010 you talked about Dean: “he has 1000′s of people who have benefited from him and love him. So to a rational person he seems to have added far more good then bad.”

    What about all the people out there that have been personally inspired and helped over the past 30 years by Paul Tsika? Do you realize how many people have benefitted from his crusades and love him all over the world? Far more than Dean Kosage. How can you make that statement and be taken seriously? According to your own rational, and I use that term loosely, Paul Tsika has added far more good than bad. Is Paul Tsika human, yes….has he made mistakes, allegedly. Maybe he was going through a rough time, like Dean, and made some mistakes.

    It really appears you are trying to discredit WWDB as a whole. That definitely sounds like a task Dean Kosage would be behind pulling strings. You probably would have been someone who would have fought to the death to defend WWDB 5 years ago, that’s the irony here. I guess now that Dean is anti-WWDB you are in that boat too. You mentioned in an earlier blog that Dean had gotten rid of all his little followers etc. I would have to question that rational too.

    It sounds like you will blogging about Paul, much like the bloggers on here blog about Dean, in which you try so hard to defend. That, by definition, is hypocrisy.

  241. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 3:42 pm

    Well I’m a Dean Kosage supporter- where’s this coffee shop and I’ll be there! I hope you are serious about Paul Tsika too. That guy is nuts.

  242. Knowledge permalink
    January 17, 2011 3:49 pm

    I was never a Dean fan, but if The Cult and Happy girl and confirm the existence of a coffee shop in Encinitas, CA that is open at 3 am, I’ll meet you all there too! Holding my breath now…..

  243. Joecool permalink
    January 17, 2011 3:57 pm

    Even though I have never met Dean Kosage, I an make some comments about my observations of him.

    There’s little or no “fruit” from his tree of success. I haven’t seen evidence of him helping hundreds of thousands of people as one of the bloggers (probably Dean himself) claim.

    This deception is making Dean look like a fool.

  244. Tony permalink
    January 17, 2011 4:26 pm

    @The Cult re: 1 Tom and Tony not dealt with Dean in over 10years. ( and tony never really did )

    Tony never really did? Who says? Dean? Voila!! Dean is behind all of this bc he’s the only one that could’ve made such a statement to you! Did I counsel w Dean at the level Tom did? Nope, but I was there before, during and after the meetings, at our small intimate group meetings, late nights in the hotel rooms, etc.

    And regardless of when we last dealt with Dean… it doesn’t change our experiences with him back then, but this “campaign” of your obviously shows he hasn’t changed much in the last 10 years.

  245. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:01 pm

    I’d actually be pretty disappointed if this just turns out to be Dean saying all this. I’m actually thinking about working with him in his new freestyle group and came across this blog with a google search. I really haven’t read all the posts but saw the author’s one above this and was trying to figure out who these people are. It is confusing to say the least about who is saying what.
    Whoever the cult is, you should check with Dean to let him know what you’re saying because honestly you’re making him look kind of petty. If I were Dean, I might be a big mad if my supporters were doing this. Anyway, I’m trying to keep an open mind here…

  246. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:11 pm

    Oops I meant to say a bit mad…

  247. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:21 pm

    Angel , why would you be upset that we are defending Dean? You should be upset at the all garbage and hate post these people have. I am just throwing it back at them. You will notice they blow off any of the great points that the positive bloggers make by just calling us fans of Deans. Oh no wait worshipers.

  248. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:26 pm

    Oh I notice the haters did not read the past post completely. I never said we where blogging from a Cafe at 3 am. ONCE AGAIN classic mis direction and Assumptions.

    WOW really guys that is how bad your memory is? I said we have been blogging together and from the same Ip address’s many times WOW SO WHAT.
    Today I mentioned we are at a cafe , I never said we where always here. NICE TRY haters.

  249. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:28 pm

    I’m not upset about defending Dean. I haven’t read all the posts, so I guess I’ll read a bit more. I guess it just seems a bit petty to be slinging mud with the haters, but like I said I’m trying to keep an open mind. Thanks for your reply.

  250. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:29 pm

    @ knowledge
    Paul has not admitted his faults or had his day in public as Dean did.
    That is the diff bro. If Paul Tsika changes or asked for forgiveness then yes we would give it to him.

  251. the cult permalink
    January 17, 2011 5:47 pm

    @tom
    Give it up bro you where already exposed as a lier by your own group. By me as well. You where always such a HOT HEAD look at you, already can’t stay off the blogs 10yrs later. What a lamo you are.

    We have all heard your story tom it is old news outdated and classic of a person with demons in a closet.

    TOM , it was easy to get feedback about how you and your current wife are doing, by talking to people who know you. It is not as if everyone you have worked with has a found memory of you.

    You know like your own downline that you left, people in your current town. Isn’t linked in a wonderful tool for that!

    Bottom line Dean asked me to stop blogging about him today. He said he received a threat from the psycho sex offender Joe. Who is talking to Amthrax.

    So I am going to respect his wish’s.
    To all of you who really want to get NON hater testimonies about Dean try getting out of this blog and finding all the quality post. Try Deans site http://www.deankosage.com

    I exposed the bloggers on here for what they are. Nothing but spin doctors with really old information if any. Many have admitted they have never met or dealt with him.

    Now we are going to get back to what we came together to do in the first place and that is to expose Paul.

  252. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 6:01 pm

    I’ll have to agree with the cult on the Paul Tsika comments. I never could figure out why he became WWDB’s pastor. I found that to be incredibly odd and then when I listened to his messages I really thought he was crazy. The “plow on” thing was just beyond my comprehension. If anyone is offended by my comment, I apologize, it’s just my opinion. I actually am curious to find out what the cult has to say on this.

  253. January 17, 2011 6:05 pm

    @The Cult: FYI, I sent two emails to Joe about clarifying his comments. That’s been the extent of my communication with him.

  254. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 6:18 pm

    Hmmm. A little fishy that you Dean told you (the cult) to stop blogging now…

    I am still curious to hear about Paul Tsika though.

  255. Knowledge permalink
    January 17, 2011 6:36 pm

    Appears as though the hands were caught in the cookie jar and Dean has spoken. Interesting that some simple requests for clarification are ignored repeatedly..ie..coffee shop that this “team” is having pastries at and blogging, 911 post, and court docs. I would to see them, if they exist. Instead, “Dean has asked us to stop blogging”. Hmmm

    @Angel

    Read the posts, see where the anger and hate is coming from, look at the dialogue.

  256. Knowledge permalink
    January 17, 2011 6:49 pm

    Team Kosage, blogging to save the free world! Where is the next coffee house meeting?

    It is tough to spin confirmed data. Date/time stamps coinsiding with the same IP address for the past few months. Remember, the tangles web we weave…

  257. Good vibes permalink
    January 17, 2011 7:18 pm

    I always thought these blogs were funny. (sometimes a little overly negative/hateful) I’ve been in the biz for a few years and haven’t had a huge success, but I’m happy with it. I have reoccuring volume every month and make a nice little additional monthly income and Dean’s been a great coach for me over that time. He never made me feel like I wasn’t part of the “team” although I wasn’t always out showing a ton of plans. I had a good little retail business and he always made me feel like that was OK.
    I think it’s funny how people who were in the business almost a decade ago are still commenting about disagreements they had back then. Two words. Group Therapy. lol.
    Just my two cents. I’m not really going to get into all the rest cause I wasn’t in the business back then, but my experience with Amway and with Dean have been fantastic. Great place for me to make a few hundred extra bucks a month, and feel like I can be a part of something.

    Oh, and one of my ‘colleagues’ (just not a fan of the word “downline”) is here at Starbucks with me (so it’ll be the same IP address—that seems to be some sort of no-no or something) as were going to try to be more active on some of the blogs so some people see positive out there. We’ll get together (since we do that anyway) and spend some time posting good out there. Light always outshines darkness anyway—so time to stop the hating and start shining some light. Honestly there’s only about 4-5 people on here that have negative things to day, the rest seem to be positive anyway so soon this will be a “positive” site. lol. Great company, great coach and he’s got a great team of people around the country. Shout out to the crew.

    Peace.

  258. Angel permalink
    January 17, 2011 7:25 pm

    @Knowledge – this is a really long thread. I’ve tried to make sense of all the stories, but I think if you don’t know the players, it’s tough to find cohesion. It does look to me like the cult person has a lot of inside information from Dean leading me to believe he is Dean or someone very close to him. He does seem to talk a bit like Dean from what I remember of his tapes. Kind of smart alecky (sp?) and in your face.

    I always enjoyed Dean’s talks and found him to be a very good speaker, but didn’t know him personally. I know he is trying to change things and he now sounds pretty enlightened honestly. If he sent his team to go out here and tackle the internet negative stuff, he might have wanted to have a better plan. If it was him personally, I’m not impressed. Talking about things from 10 years ago or more is not a good PR move. I do understand people who have had negative experiences wanting to vent and find others to commiserate with. If Dean wants to combat the negative stuff on the internet, his best bet (IMHO) would be to use his own website and confront the stuff straight on. That would garner more respect than belittling the people who really did have some bad experiences. Anyway, that’s just my opinion.

    It sounds like his new group of people are a lot like the old group. Oh well…

  259. happy girl permalink
    January 17, 2011 7:56 pm

    @ Knowledge
    You have nothing confirmed is our point. You only throw out insinuations.
    If you want confirmed data vs gossip ok honey.

    Confirmed Deans EX went to jail for domestic violence NOT Dean, everything else is gossip.

    Confirmed Amway haters posted his ex wife statements from that night online online pretending they are actual police docs. This is confirmed by the form they are written on, or anyone looking them up.You can ask a officer to see the forms online they will tell you that is a statement not a report or a finding. We did that today again just to be sure.

    The negative blog that talks about Deans Divorce does not post up the actual police reports or Deans Statement. Instead they redirect it to a article talking about how much Dean was making. This is very fair and not deceitful or manipulative at all WINK WINK.

    All of you just ignore the fact she went to jail as if the police officers where wrong, and you all know better brilliant lads! The power of the web sweethearts.

    Confirmed Paul Tsika has admitted to Adultery and Oh no ladies not just once . He has even written about it this year to offset the fact that the truth came out. The diamonds in WWDB did not know about it and of course those of us little ones did not know about it.

    Confirmed I personally felt violated by Paul, unless my experience now does not count.

    Confirmed Dean was not kicked out of WWDB he left. You can call Amway or WWDB to confirm this.

    Confirmed you can all have your opinions, and it is obvious you want to keep them no matter how positive others stories are. We do not seek to change your past only to present a fair story.

    It is not hard to show that Dean today received a threatening email from Joe, and that Joe was talking to Amthrax at that time today.

    It is not hard to prove Dean filed a case number today against Joe and provided the emails as proof between Amthrax and Joe. Call the local station if you like.

    Dean then spoke with the blogger the cult and asked him to back off,or move on.

    It is not hard to realise this struck up a ton of conversation today with all of us wondering what to do about this guy with a criminal record. If it was smart to tell the world what cafe we where at while this was going on or wait till later.

    Dean has been a wonderful friend to many of us and will be for many years.
    Today we where at the E street cafe. And now that we are not there anymore I feel safe telling people and not worried about this Joe guy.

    Now we focus our attentions now on Paul Tsika and few other things in the world we want to raise awareness on. We will be blogging as a team from many places , on the same IP address sometimes ~ seems to have been a big subject for some reason ~ personally I do not get that at all fuse over the IP address I guess I am missing something.

  260. Knowledge permalink
    January 17, 2011 8:00 pm

    Ha ha, it’s not that tough to set up new handles. This blog has run it’s course. Who knows who is really who anymore. Great content the past few months! Not good for Dean when people Google “Dean Kosage” 😦

  261. January 17, 2011 8:36 pm

    I agree that this thread has run its course. If we kept going, at the end of the day, everyone would be proclaiming they are each other! Comments are now closed on this blog post.

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