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“You Deserve It” With Former Amway Diamond Carole Holiday

January 6, 2012

Former Amway Diamond Carole Holiday was recently awarded $77,400 on a ABC’s You Deserve It.

Her son, K.C. Holiday was a contestant on the game show whose tagline is, “It’s better to give than to receive.” K.C. is on the show to win money for her mother, whose story was described as follows:

  • Grew up in Southern California
  • Got married at 21
  • Worked as a dental hygienist
  • Got divorced 18 months ago after 32 years of marriage
  • She loses her job a few days after the divorce
  • Her lease coming up and no place to go
  • She asks her son, “What do I do?”
  • Carole discovers she has a heart condition
  • She doesn’t have the money to treat her heart condition

Divorce. No home. Medical problems. Does this sound like the lifestyle of an Amway Diamond?

The television show omitted the fact for years, Carole and her former husband, Craig Holiday1, were Diamonds in Amway. They began their Amway career in 1979 and were “recognized” as Diamonds on-stage throughout the 1990’s. I know this because the Holidays were in my extended upline in INA. Sometime after “retiring” from the business, they set up their own cooking school called “Our House South County” in the 2000’s.

Clearly, Carole has fallen on tough times, and I hope that the money will go to treat her heart condition.

I hope, however, that her story shows that Diamonds aren’t always forever in the world of Amway and MLM’s. The myth that once you make Diamond, you’re set for life, is just that, a myth. More often than not, it becomes another job, one that you have to work very hard in which to maintain your position.

Here’s a clip from the show taken from Carole’s family. You can watch the full episode of You Deserve It here:

Readers, what lessons have we learned from watching K.C. win big money for his former Diamond mother, Carole, on You Deserve It?

1 Craig Holiday runs a coaching and mentorship business at He says in his about page that he built his “income quickly to over $1M per year”. Where did all that money go?

  1. Hershall permalink
    January 9, 2012 1:55 pm

    I saw Team Round Tables and Policy Council touring and speaking, speaking, speaking… Lots of CDs – lots of events – come to the next one – It will be huge – They’re bringing the coach –
    Chris Brady can spend weeks in Italy. That’s awesome! But he’s got the bottom working like crazy. Tim and Bill won’t be off at the same time. But Chris has his books to work on so that they can be sold in system and on tool tables just in case. The last two major conventions I was certain that Brady wasn’t really all that “fired up”. He was passionate about his talks but the passion didn’t carry over to the words he used about the business and about the coming L.I.F.E.. He tried to be excited but he couldn’t transfer a feeling he didn’t really have. Tim had it. Bill didn’t. Claude believed. George sort of did. And I could never ever really read Orrin. And the RTs were scared. They seemed trapped. Now I think they may have been thinking, “Not again”. The lights and loud music didn’t hide the anxiety.
    And at the same time it became obvious how many big names weren’t there any more.
    I’m sure they’re all doing much better now. But maybe, like Carole, they aren’t.
    My wish for them is they realize their dreams by applying what they’ve learned and focusing on their new goals.

  2. January 11, 2012 6:22 pm

    Hi, maybe I missed it somewhere… but what happened to Carole?

  3. January 11, 2012 11:08 pm

    @Rykel – long time no talk. Didn’t you read my article? It’s all laid out for you. Craig and Carole went Diamond in the 80’s. Continued to cross stage as a Diamond into the late 90’s. Then, disappeared. Resurfaced as the proprietor of a cooking house. At some time recently, got divorced from Craig. Lost job, lost house, got into medical problems.

  4. January 12, 2012 11:03 am

    My lesson is scams don’t last forever either.

  5. Gerry permalink
    September 5, 2012 5:04 pm

    Stumbled across your site when I was viewing Craig Holiday on Team Beachbody You tube uploads. Seems he is a coach with Beachbody and talks like he made it big in Amway. I don’t get it???

  6. September 5, 2012 8:38 pm

    @Gerry – Craig Holiday was a Diamond in Amway, but he’s no longer one today. He and Carole are divorced, and it would appear that she’s no longer in the business either. So, while he may have made it big in Amway, he’s not making it big in Amway today.

  7. H. Nguyen permalink
    September 18, 2012 12:43 pm

    @Gerry – Check out Orange County Superior Courts public records to back up comments here re Craig Holiday’s financial status ( Seems he had 2 lawsuits filed for stiffing Citibank and Chase Bank. 25K+ on case # 30-2010-00389012 from 2010 and 9K+ on case #30-2012-00579168. Don’t think I’ll be signing up for his mentorship program as mentioned above. Any takers? Sounds like he can teach you how to avoid paying your bills. Takes alot of ignoring debt to get this far in the courts.

  8. Gerry permalink
    September 27, 2012 5:05 pm

    Checking it out, I found there’s more to this story according to network peeps in the loop re Beachbody and Craig Holiday. He ‘s moved on to Seacret direct ($$$ Dead Sea salt skin care stuff) – PR line “mutual decision w/ Team Beachbody” C’mon does anybody believe that? Not the BB coaches who are pissed about the mass recruiting email sent out to their downline inviting them to his Seacret webinar. Said he was coming out of retirement because he has never felt the call to build another business. Until now. Really? Word from former biz assoc/BB peeps is that he was in 2 other MLMs after Amway. Seacret would be his 3rd but who’s counting. And who retires with this debt? Sounds like a corp bust with Beachbody catching Holiday with his hand in the cookie jar. Why is this so predictable in these motivational guys world of spin, exaggeration and shady ethics? Tell peeps this is the besto opportunity in the history of the world and then steal other coaches downline to start another kingdom of your own. I wonder how many of his new Seacret worker bees are from Beachbody? Holiday’s behavior hurts. It reinforces self-serving stereotypcial MLM antics and hurts standup Beachbody coaches who are trying to improve the face of MLMs. Unfortunately no surprises here in this sad story.

  9. September 28, 2012 4:01 pm

    “…hurts standup Beachbody coaches who are trying to improve the face of MLMs.”

    The face of MLMs cannot be improved. It is as it is – ugly. The kind you see when one falls out of the ugly tree and hits every branch on the way down. In fact even you have that knowing within as your words confirmed “Unfortunately no surprises here in this sad story.”

    There is no way for the do good masses to win in MLM no matter what. That would be the right thing but the MLM bosses are not about to let that happen – it cuts too much into their gravy. MLM is always designed for a few individuals to win. As AlmostIn so eloquently put it elsewhere “They win, you lose (financially, critically, emotionally, etc.)” It’s the nature of the MLM beast.

  10. mary net permalink
    October 5, 2012 3:40 pm

    are they divorced? i heard they are not.

  11. October 8, 2012 10:26 am

    The video from the game show said Carole got divorced 18 months ago (at the time of the game show) after 32 years of marriage.

  12. mary net permalink
    October 8, 2012 3:10 pm

    I know from a reliable source that he and Carole are still married, and they have yet to divorce. Is there a way through public record to verify the truth?

  13. October 10, 2012 11:04 am

    If you know the county in which they filed for divorce, you could look up the records. At the end of the day, does it really matter if they are still together?

  14. November 15, 2012 1:29 pm

    Interesting thread…mebbe mary net has legit case for relevance. Its no secret more than 1 Beachbody coach got “private coaching” in Holiday’s hotel rooms. Didn’t matter if chicks were married or if he was married. Who cares? Betcha he does. Posts on Holiday’s and/or somedayistoday show lots of God talk/spiritual authenticity speak. Typical – right? Buyer beware the evangelistic type MLM mentor who preaches black and white integrity but lives in 50 shades of gray behind closed doors. #publicfacevsprivateman #petraeusfanclub #smoothtalker Whaddaya say mary net?

  15. November 15, 2012 2:57 pm

    Is there proof of this “private coaching” ? Have people come forward with such information?

  16. November 21, 2012 9:35 am

    With respect Amthrax, people who have affairs – especially business hookups-don’t usually come forward and confess at the office water cooler. Mebbe if they get caught. Ya think Petraeus would have fessed up if the FBI hadn’t hacked his email? If ur asking if I have names…yep…could drop a few…so could other coaches…yep…Beachbody related, married and not. Its consenting adult stuff so everybody keeps the skeletons in the closet but wish these guys would spare us the God talk, do-gooder, image spin. #publicfacevsprivateman

    About your Nov 13 “Another Thing Remarkably Successful People Do – They Don’t Plagiarize.” Insanely good stuff. Just in time for turkey, check out Its from 2011 but he’s recycled it this week.

    Thanksgiving: A Time For All We Hold Dear
    November 24, 2011 by Craig Holiday ·

    “Thanksgiving is my favorite time of year.

    Give Thanks
    For as long as I remember I have had a love affair with Thanksgiving. It has been going on for over some 50 years, as far back as I remember. It might be my favorite Holiday of the year ( I do love Christmas a lot too). It seems to blend together all we Americans hold dear— with out the plastic mask of commercialism. It highlights the home and family. Thanksgiving is synonymous with stuff that can be found only in the home– a warm fireplace, smells coming from the kitchen, kids and grandkids, long distance phone calls, family reunions, holding hands and praying before a meal, a game of football, friends just dropping by, pumpkin pie, homemade rolls, that special family dressing, and six million calories.”

    Curious after reading your thread, I googled this blog to find it was a direct steal from author Charles Swindoll. LOL. Ur point couldn’t have been better proven. Another Beachbody coach read an entry on Holiday’s fb wall yesterday about being a leader that was straight up a copy from another Swindoll book.Page 205, “Growing Strong in the Seasons of Life.” No credit to Swindoll, just signed his name like he wrote it. Best part of the post…”Leaders are authentic.” LMAO.

    Rascal Teamster, I love it Dude. “I wonder how many other leadership gurus can’t come up with their own thoughts?” Great line. They ought to hire you.

    Will sign off with this blog from a new Seacret Agent/faithful follower talking about her mentor Craig Holiday.

    Tired of being sick & tired, A Seacret Direct … – Deborah Peters
    Nov 12, 2012 – My friend Craig Holiday’s story – and how it continues to motivate us all in Seacret Direct. ..

    “Though he doesn’t need to work and earns residuals today, he did decide a few months ago to join Seacret Direct. Why? A new surge and desire. Ground floor, the Seacret Direct network is brand new – these are the once in a lifetime opportunities.”

    He doesn’t have to work? Are u serious? No Brad Pitt doesn’t have to work.
    Ground floor? Heard that one before. Whaddya tell the peeps 5 years from now?

    These leaders share something in common – the need for people to believe that they are something they are not. The insanity continues. Rock on Gurus.


    [Editor’s note: Added blockquote]

  17. mary net permalink
    November 24, 2012 2:02 pm

    Caution!!! Divorce? Lots of affairs? Millions? Lots of debt? Personal integrity? Lots of corruptness for personal gain? A hidden cancer overlooked for a long period of time leads to massive destruction when discovered. Be wise, very wise. Be discerning, very discerning.

  18. November 26, 2012 1:28 pm

    Haha Raquel…guess this mean u won’t be signing up as a Seacret Agent anytime soon? If u don’t believe that hype check this out. “Cool Guy (and Millionaire) Craig Holiday and Beachbody Business” Don’t have to watch long before Holiday claims he still makes 250K/yr in amway. Whaaaaaat?

  19. November 26, 2012 1:46 pm

    Amthrax – one for u. Ya think plagiarizing is good for business?

    Swindoll steal was not enuf…Holiday’s FB T’giving Day post…

    Gratitude unlocks the fullness of life. It turns what we have into enough, and more. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos to order, confusion to clarity. It can turn a meal into a feast, a house into a home, a stranger into a friend. Gratitude makes sense of our past, brings peace for today, and creates a vision for tomorrow. ~Craig~

    Seems he forgot that belongs to Meloddy Beattie – well known author/not plagiarizer


  20. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 26, 2012 1:58 pm

    I have noticed that every single MLM teaches their people to say that it isn’t an MLM. People have a sick gut feeling about MLM, and guess what THEY ARE RIGHT. TEAM uses a lot of the same garbage that he used in that video.

  21. December 1, 2012 11:35 pm

    From Craig Holiday’s Facebook Wall on Friday, Nov 23, 2012
    “I built the Amway business for 25 years. Never been involved as a distributor in any other Company. Until now…”
    Why would he say this? That is absolutely false. Craig Holiday was an actively building distributor in a network marketing company called Univera Life Science after Amway. A LOT of people know he was in Univera. He had meetings and developed CD sets.He was growing a business for himself, sponsering people in his downline. I went to his meetings. I listened to his CDs. A big reason he got in Univera was because of a Blue Diamond named Al Keranen. They knew each other from Amway but Keranen had been terminated by Amway (and had gone to prison for a Ponzi scheme)
    Univera didn’t work out so well so Holiday moved on to ANOTHER network business called Dubli. I know because he recruited Univera people (serial MLM jumpers always raid one MLM to feed another) He did Dubli with another Amway guy Bob Darrah. According to facebook, Bob Darrah is in Beachbody now. Any of you Beachbody people ask Darrah and maybe he’ll be truthful. Just like Univera, Craig Holiday talked to LOTS of people about Dubli. Dubli just sort of ended with lots of people buying in and never making any money. Any other Dubli people out there?
    It was in Univera that Craig Holiday met a Vietnamese guy named Khai Huynh. Former Amway/ Univera/ Dubli people found out that Khai Huynh sponsered Craig Holiday in the MLM he’s in now – Seacret Direct. But they both were in Univera first. Huynh is on the internet as a leader in ANOTHER mlm called Qivana. What is going on here? Does Qivana know he is doing Seacret? Why cover it up? Why does Craig Holiday lie about the other mlm’s he was in? What are they hiding? Reportedly Huynh and Holiday learn from another mlm jumper Tim Herr in Seacret. Herr has been in 5 or 6 other mlm’s. Google it. Which businesses are these guys in? How long will this one be? They jump ship, talk people out of one mlm into another with big promises. There’s no integrity in that. I don’t understand why anyone would want to follow them or believe what they say. If someone you are following lies about or rewrites their personal history, can they really be trusted?

  22. Beach Cities Dad permalink
    December 8, 2012 5:16 pm

    Re DJ’s post on 11-21
    Tired of being sick & tired, A Seacret Direct … – Deborah Peters
    Nov 12, 2012 – My friend Craig Holiday’s story – and how it continues to motivate us all in Seacret Direct. ..
    This Deborah Peters needs to check her facts.
    I knew Craig Holiday back in the day when he lived in Manhattan Beach. He worked for a construction company and for about a year in the late 70’s was a volunteer for the MBchPD. I lol’d when I read from that blog he had a “background in law enforcement with long stressful hours” He was never a paid police officer, never made a dime as a cop, never put in long hours in law enforcement to support a family. He “worked” for free a few shifts a month. It was more like a hobby. To compare reserve work to career police officers who really do work long, stressful hours is….I dunno, what do you call that? I’m sure reservists get police insight, but it was never a career or a source of income. I think that he just wanted to be a cop. Maybe this blogger woman should ask him where he worked and then call that police dept and ask them if he was ever employed.

  23. December 11, 2012 6:58 am

    It’s ez thus, never trust anything you hear in pretend MLM “industry” before verifying it.

  24. Beach Cities Dad permalink
    December 19, 2012 12:54 am

    So I went online and looked up and his current bio said he went from a one man show to over 80,000 distributors and a 7 figure income. If I am counting right, seven figures is a million dollars and 80K is a big crowd. I’m not a mlm guy, but wouldn’t it be a normal question to ask what happened to all of these people and all of this money? If the dollars and the distributors are still around why the debt and why does Carole Holiday need money and if the dollars and the distributors are not around, why would anyone want to learn from someone that built a business that disappeared? His bio sounds like he is still rich and is offering a course, Rhino Renegade (idk why that name?) on how other people can do the same thing. But none of his bio makes sense if even some of the comments here are true.
    I’m just a simple minded surfer but I think exambot has a point. I would go in thinking the best but really not trust any claim until it is verified (like calling the police dept where he worked or asking about his assets/financial portfolio). These would be appropriate questions to ask of someone wanting to be paid for business mentorship. If he was promoting a dog grooming business, I wouldn’t worry about it. But I would def not buy anything or sign up for anything with him unless there were more facts that could be verified.

  25. December 23, 2012 12:44 pm

    @beach cities dad – Ask questions??? Uhhh…yah…ya think?
    Lemme see. No brainer. Craig Holiday lies, cheats, steals. Duh??? Sign me up.

  26. December 23, 2012 12:49 pm

    Uh dude,I forgot . I’ll be rockin this one

  27. January 5, 2013 8:07 pm

    well well well—- i knew craig and carole in high school. she was always sweet and he was always a JERK. in later years i got into amway with another friend upline and craig a diamond. sooooo sad what has happened. i dont blame carole, i blame craig he is still a JERK . craig step up and help carole with her heart problems, what happened to all your money????. i trust carole, not craig.

  28. March 6, 2013 11:18 pm

    This is so sad to see…dont know what happened here! But I knew Craig and Carole back in the early 80’s and 90’s. Craig and Carole, were both some of the most awesome people you would ever want to know…SORRY did not see the jerk side of Craig! I dont know anything about these new ventures, and sad to see that they have split up… BUT, its VERY, VERY, easy for someone who DOES NOT KNOW “ALL” the facts, to judge another’s life…Is “all those” that make such critical statements on this site, SO squeaky clean themselves…I THINK NOT?? There are a lot of folks hurting financially (Including me) People with Ivy league degrees having a hard time to get enough income, JUST to survive, let alone pay off the BIG student loans!!

    Keep that in mind people, there is reason the proverb says “people in glass houses, should not throw stones, or in the words of the one who knows best… He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone… Good words to live by.

  29. March 7, 2013 10:04 am

    Sin? You serious bud? What’s that got to do with the price of tea in China? Focus on the facts raised. Counter facts with facts! Faux pas attempting shut folks up by quoting the good book. No one here claimed to be of no sin. Just that “…the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” -Titus 2:11. Therefore, we can talk about what we have experienced and seen. If we do not are we not then complicit in the evil we speak of. Don’t lose sight of what Edmund Burke said something to the effect of all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

    Amthraxers, James 5:11 urges “Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast.”

  30. March 7, 2013 12:22 pm

    Hmm I see… There is more to those quotes. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. James 5:11 KJ

    For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:1 KJ

    SIN, has everything to do with everything, if you quote His word you should know that!

    Quoting facts for facts I did… IF Craig or Carole is guilty of taking advantage of people in any way, then you do have recourse via the law. REGARDLESS They will be held accountable… for any wrong doing…DONT you trust this?

    Quoting scripture to shut you up NO… The end result of these continued actions, will leave YOU bitter and hardened… a high price to pay!

  31. March 7, 2013 4:45 pm

    Sin has everything to do with the actions perpetrated by charlatans upon their adherents. Not us here talking about the same and warning others.

    You said,
    “The end result of these continued actions, will leave YOU bitter and hardened… a high price to pay!”

    You have obviously not made much headway reading this site. To the contrary I am, as most on here, much rewarded when a potential recruit dodges the MLM bullet or seeks answers to a current sticky MLM situation. Perhaps you should take your own advice that “its VERY, VERY, easy for someone who DOES NOT KNOW “ALL” the facts, to judge another’s life” Read more on this site before making another gaffe.

    BTW my hat off to you for sticking around.

  32. March 7, 2013 4:53 pm

    Thanx for sharing Titus 2:1. No one heeding the same would perpetrate the crimonogenic activities charlatans hoist over innocent people. The world would be a much better place sans predatory MLMs.

  33. March 7, 2013 5:49 pm

    I was in Amway… I knew Craig Holiday, Jim Floor, Jimmy Head, Lief Johnson, etc, etc… even started a business in the UK. My take way, was FAR GREATER, and my experiences IS NOT based on assumptions or RUMOR!! The “FACTS” if they truly are here, SHOULD stand by themselves. FACT its minimum investment business, does not cost 10’s of thousands to start up and operate. FACT The teaching is tremendous, and enabled me to secure, corporate postions globally.. FACT, if a person wants out, what did it truly cost you, vs what you gained?

    Like I said, my take away was FAR greater! ALL the bitter anger, and put downs are uncalled for, and unjustified. Its sounds more like someone has an axe to grind… and this is this the forum to do that. I think they call it Trolling… SAD. The end result is the same…its will eat away like a cancer. If there are legal violations, RICO acts, pursue it if you have a case… The rest just sends like bitter grapes, very unprofitable!

  34. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 1:16 pm


    Great fur you, you got a “take away”. I got a lot of “take-aways” too.

    Your “FACTS” maybe “your” FACTS and some just opinion, but they are NOT everyone’s “FACTS” and unless you are in the less than 1% it is nothing but loses of thousands for those. So lest be honest, you are not on a website where people haven’t “built it”.

    Are you saying others “experiences” are based on assumptions or RUMOR? Wrong. FACT is, from my experience… it was NOT a minimum investment business and it DID cost 10’s of thousands to operate. Perhaps you weren’t “All-IN” or were only in it for a year and treated it as a “hobby?”

    Seminars were $25-30 x 12=$300 bucks minimum, Majors 190 bucks plus usually 2 days off work (have paid up to $250 per person just) for a minimum of 500 but 1000 for a couple x 12 would be $12,000 per year. The “top 50” = $300 that changed every year. Hotel, Gas, Food, TIME, Tues+$10 per couple x 50 weeks = another 500 bucks! And all the other “packs” and weekly CD’s SERIES (plural) & BOM’s (plural). Not to mention ALL the extra meetings you pay for travel, food, hotel etc, when you qualify to be around the TOP or your “mentors”… Then multiply that by how many wasted years? That doesn’t even include the 3-1000 bucks per month on Products…So I am not sure who you are trying to fool here?

    Those are the FACTS. FACT in our case…Orrin Woodward believed and sued Amway for being a pyramid-scheme, and knew they had hopelessly overpriced products but continued to REQUIRE that mandatory spending on products to qualify. But he failed to mention that for oh say a decade but continued to tell people it was the “best business bar none… keep building it?!

    How’s that for some great business.. “take-away?” Then right into Monavie, where the prices were sooo much cheaper…lol all the while running his own recruitment training company” scheme?

    “The teaching is tremendous” is subjective (your opinion) not a “FACT”, although I agree some of the books were good and a few even great but could have gotten those from the library for free, or way cheaper, but when you add the “teaching” that is purely based on keeping the pyramid scheme’s going and in the spirit of personal gain, I would hardly call that “tremendous teachings.”

    What did it cost us? FACT…It cost us 13 years of our lives..10’s of thousands of hours away from our children, missing all kinds of family events, children sports, school events, family & friends invites, Birthdays etc…costs us never having time or declining many invites from friends that were prior to business those friendships of people that never had a stipulation too..IT COST TIME PH, what is the value of TIME lost with family, children and & true friends? TIME we will NEVER get back!…5-7 nights a week, FACT it did cost multiply ten’s of thousands and if I had to add it up for the majority of years it would be over a hundred thousands dollars!

    What did we gain in comparison.Learned and re-learned A lot of lessons on what people will do for money…corruption, how easy it is to get trapped in a lie, have learned a lot about thought reform, seen what greed can do first hand, watched leaders sell out their so called friends, betrayal and some serious FAKE & greedy “friendships.”

    The “positive” gain were some of those friendships that remain true, we had and still have but the big gap between the superficial..CONDITIONAL ones were never friends to begin with.

    RICO pursue it if you have a case? Interesting you would throw that in?

  35. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 1:18 pm

    Oh lest not forget the “tool truck” thousands of dollars in our trunk and office!

  36. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 1:20 pm

    oops “tool trunk” good be the size of a truck… oh how about the cases and cases of books to game the #1 best sellers list?

  37. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 3:27 pm

    How about showing the plan at least 15 times per month?…First Night & Second Night Materials? How many hundreds if not thousands of dollars on those do you think people buy and replace on a continuous basis because you NEVER get them back?

    What about your “board & easel” or “flip chart” or what-ever the newest money grabbing tool they come up with or plan showing apparatus…any “serious business builder” has to have or they want you to believe you can’t build your business without!” And having at least 1 extra on hand because you wouldn’t want your downline to have to “wait” for, right?…Remember strike while the iron is hot?! ..@ 90 bucks a crack? What other expenses, PH, have I forgotten about? How bout the wear and tear and tens’ of thousands of miles you put on your vehicle…think that might COST a bit?

  38. March 10, 2013 6:28 pm

    FIRSTLY, and primarily my comments, where/are to the condemning statements about people, and what it does to “THE people that carry such anger!!”

    It would appear that your take away was/is, the COST! It cost this, it cost that…which is never good… whenever we are in that mode, its self destructive, and EVERYONE you talk to, would know it…its an accident waiting to happen.

    I have been in Sales and marketing over 20 years, and if I “dont believe in what I am doing,” and in the process of doing it, if I NOT am helping someone other than myself, then I WILL NOT DO IT! If I am miserable, then I not helping MYSELF or anyone else, I would not certainly continue under those conditions for 13 years, thinking about missing this and that….NOPE no way.

    That is NOT what I was taught as “vertical alignment” God, family, Job etc…the business did not precedence over family, or the Job?? AND looking around in some of the IBO’s online it would appear that they do not teach that either? I will not do it JUST for the money… money only is not worth it, I WOULD be done! I certainly would not have done it for 13 years, under that thinking process….that is far to much of a price to pay!

    By the way all of our major functions in the 80’s were 1500 miles away… so I understand paying the price. BUT that same price has been attached to every corporate job that I have held, and they didn’t care about the “PRICE” it cost me in time away from family, travelling all over the country. In the corporate arena, the higher you climb, the more they expect of you in “time” and “priority” to THEM!!

    And any business will cost in in 10’s of thousand of $$’s in start up cost and ALL THE ABOVE!! I know because I have done it, there is no free lunch…

    If after 13 years, you are not making a HIGH 6 figure income there is something wrong, and if you are hating it, thats even worse…

    Sorry to see that happen, hope you can move on from it…

  39. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 8:25 pm


    If your statements were “primarily about put downs & anger” then why all the capitalized words, other statements and questions?

    You say; ” FACT, if a person wants out, what did it truly cost you, vs what you gained?”

    Not sure why you state the word..”FACT” and then ask the question but if you didn’t want an answer then perhaps you shouldn’t ask the question.

    Maybe I am reading it wrong but you ought to Re-read Your March 7, 2013 seems a lot more about your anger than anyone elses?

  40. noteam permalink
    March 10, 2013 8:36 pm

    PH – I can understand you not understanding how many of us have been hurt so deeply.

    Unfortunately, your experience was nothing like the Orrin Woodward experience. I, also knew Jim Floor, Leif Johnson, Craig Holiday, etc.

    The INA system was nothing like the mind-control techniques used by Orrin & Crew and the system costs and expectations of brand new people were not even in the same league. You had to actually experience Orrin’s cult to truly believe how different it was. Without being in Orrin’s system for 6 months or more, there is no way to truly comprehend it.

    I know it sounds odd, and from the outside looking in, it appears Orrin was just doing the same thing as INA, Dexter Yager, Bill Britt, WWDB, etc, but trust me – calling Orrin Woodward ‘just another system leader’ is like calling Charles Manson ‘just another criminal’.

  41. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 8:45 pm

    You state:

    “By the way all of our major functions in the 80′s were 1500 miles away… so I understand paying the price. BUT that same price has been attached to every corporate job that I have held, and they didn’t care about the “PRICE” it cost me in time away from family, travelling all over the country.”

    Here you go talking about “price” or cost, thought you weren’t about that?

    PH did your company pay you for mileage, meals, travel, and/or your salary?

    Funny,and very predictable.. the arguments are usually to distract or red herrings.. either “We aren’t like corporate America” or “It is no different then Corporate America” or the rest of the world..whatever suits the moment. when challenged.

    Let me ask you question, PH….Are you still “building the business?” Which one you with, would it be Amway, Team Lief, Monavie, or which MLM are you currently with?

    Are you angry because people are sharing their experiences and perhaps it strikes to your core or too close to the truth for you?

  42. March 10, 2013 10:22 pm

    Folks, all of you…

    I am NOT in an MLM, nor am I saying to join a MLM…
    WHAT I am saying is, I am NOT going to carry that experience with me as something which defines me, or become WHO I am!

    LOOK you have two options in EVERYTHING, learn from it, take the positive from it, and move on…life is not static. Or sit there in the pain, and the lies that some fool told you, and say its all bad…it NEVER is, NEVER!

    I like EVERYONE else, have been ripped off by “Deceivers” many, many, times!

    “Dont assume anything, about who I am or what I have done….YOU dont know.”

    I JUST choose, to look for what I can learn from EVERYTHING, and move forward. I am not going to allow someone who is “evil” and of this world, who’s sole purpose in life is making MONEY $$$, to determine who I am, you have that choice too.

    “What you/or they sow you/or they reap,” “vengeance is mine saith the Lord.” We are ALL accountable for “everything” we do. I KNOW there is a God, and I live in a relationship with Him, and I not controlled by what worldly evil people do… I just wont let, or they WIN.

    The trouble is “IF” this venting helped, it would be one thing, but generally just churn’s up all the negative, all the bad memories. Gives some, reason to never try again, other’s reason to never trust again, and people carry around dead weight and hatred that eats away in every relationship, be it personal and or business. They have this 10,000 pound weight dragging around with them, for the rest of their life… where is the benefit in that??
    The LIGHT goes out of their eyes, which is really sad, and they develop a ME FIRST attitude, and then YOU are part of the problem, rather than the solution…then you run the potential of being the one who people are talking negative crap about, because in what you do NOW, you make for a disgusting experience, when people work with you, or you become false and superficial… thats terrible. IE You run the risk, of allowing it the NEGATIVE to define you become, people become hardened and unfeeling.

    GI GO, GI GO…perpetual negative, SELF destructive loop… there is no way in the world that this helps…

    These deceivers, these liars, these corrupt people, you need to know they will not get away with it… The choice is yours…I once read He (Or she) who angers you, controls you…

  43. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 11, 2013 9:54 am


    What is the real reason you came here? Was it out of the “goodness of your heart?” Did you all of sudden after what 2 decades, thought you would seek out people who had a “bad (typical) experience with MLM and decided you would tell them how they should feel about their experience and what they ought to do, they shouldn’t be angry? Seems extremely odd to me that you were in Amway clear back in the 80’s but yet you come to give people your general advice on how people should feel about their experience?

    Not saying I don’t agree with any of what you said, just wondering what you wanted to get out of it?

    You state you are not in any MLM currently, I guess we will have to take your word for it, but yet you found your way to this website? Then you are assuming you know who, why and what everyone else is doing or what kind of “people” everyone is and will become, what their relationships are like with others, because they have been “ripped off by deceivers?”, Something is just not adding up.

    You say: “Dont assume anything, about who I am or what I have done….YOU dont know.”

    Could you give others the same respect that you expect for yourself? You continue to assume you know everyone one, assume “The LIGHT goes out of their eyes, which is really sad, and they develop a ME FIRST attitude, and then YOU are part of the problem, rather than the solution…” or how it “defines them?”

    It is apparent to me you don’t see the value in possibly helping others not get trapped in a viscous, perpetual money grabbing scheme, and the likely damages others will suffer because of it? I guess to use your words “you don’t know” really anything about anyone else on here….how could you?… most on here are anonymous so how would you know about their relationships with anyone “outside” the “bad experience.” I hope you take your own advice and quit assuming you do know.

    I shared some things I learned with you,but perhaps that wasn’t what you wanted to hear but I too agree and won’t “allow someone who is “evil” and of this world, who’s sole purpose in life is making MONEY $$$, to determine who I am.”

    “These deceivers, these liars, these corrupt people, you need to know they will not get away with it… The choice is yours…I once read He (Or she) who angers you, controls you…”

    I agree with you eventually it catches up. But the last statement about who angers you, controls you, that could be truth to that also. But didn’t Jesus display his anger towards the money changers because it was wrong and he displayed that for all to see? I don’t believe just because you get “angry” at injustice, or fraud, or anything that is of wrong doing, would naturally anger people but doesn’t mean they “control you.”

    I believe this site has and does make a difference, (there is plenty of evidence of that in the comments) if you were reading it I am sure you noticed and the “anger” of those who have been “deceived”, lied to, betrayed, conned, then it would be righteous and should not be minimized, and because of it they are assumed to just be “negative”, nor should their experiences be denied.

  44. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 11, 2013 10:00 am

    There is a solution offered here, if you care. There is a link to the FTC and a petition to be signed.

  45. March 11, 2013 11:59 am


    I am NOT going to be party to a “trolling” conversation… which is where this is going “pearls before swine!”

    Check my original post you will know “WHY” I posted here…my position has remained the same!!

    As I have CLEARLY said, I did NOT have a problem with my Amway experience…so I have no need to file a complaint, where would be the ethics, and logic in that…that would be super hypercritical!

    It’s apparent no matter what I say, you have made up “your mind”…
    On each point I have been PERFECTLY clear as to my INTENT, and now my words, are n being twisted… which is really not very surprising!

    Bottom line, my point remains the same… move on, or carry it with you… Carrying it with you and NOT letting go, has a heavy price.

    “Some things are true if you believe them or not.”

  46. AlmostIn permalink
    March 11, 2013 1:51 pm


    Nice try on the spin w/words. You clearly came here to tell everyone on here that has stated what their experiences, opinions, and observations were are doing nothing but complaining about how they were wronged. Your words are not being twisted because the people on here have their critical thinking skills intact. If they were still part of Orrin’s cult, then your twist with words would probably sound quite reasonable and the cultee’s would then begin to think that what you are saying is profound and intelligent.
    The people on here are doing a civic duty to themselves and others who get a little inkling that somthing about Orrin and his band of Merry Men is not what it seems. Not everyone in this world is on the up and up for being ethical, moral and sincere.
    You just wanted to point out to all on here about how they should just keep quiet about how they felt about the business’s teachings and practices. I bet that you feel that it’s better that you just pick yourself up by the bootstraps, dust yourself off and move on.Never mind wanting to help another person out. Why–if they do this then there would be nothing out there about Orrin’s business and then that would ease their doubt so that LIFE could suck them into the web of deceit. Experience & observations are opinions. Opinions are not complaints, they are relational experiences and observations of something in question.

  47. March 11, 2013 2:25 pm

    Hmm.. some people are NOT part of this twisted agenda your refer to…

    And AGAIN, STOP twisting my words… “IF” the intent is to help, then that is what is being implied.

    What are your options? How is this helping, IF years AFTER the ordeal, people are still carrying it around like it was yesterday! If a person never reaches a point of release on a negative incident in their life, then it goes on and on…

    YES, the idea should be move on, FOR the people that have been deceived… because that affects everything that they do…staying there and reliving it does not help!

    To believe that lie, would be akin to repeatedly placing your hand in boiling water, to feel better about it…its NOT going happen! That just lying to yourself …

    The truth will make you free… lies will keep you trapped…

  48. March 11, 2013 3:35 pm

    Everyone – I’m closing this thread, since it’s gone off tangent from the topic of the original post.

Comments are closed.

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