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Pro LIFE TEAM Prospecting Video Shows Why You Should Not Join LIFE

November 26, 2011

Here’s a pro-LIFE TEAM video done by LIFE TEAM member Mark Haas on YouTube:

Sorry, Mark, but after watching your 12-minute video, I think it demonstrates why you should not join LIFE TEAM far better than convincing you to sign up.

I would like to point out several hypocritical statements in the video.

This site is making money from Google Ads

Rita says in the video:

I found that most of the negative sites are making money from Google advertisements or by getting you to link to something that offers a different opportunity.

Rita’s insinuation is that these anti-sites have some hidden agenda: they want to make money off of you visiting the site. As evidence, she points to the presence of Google Ads on the sites.

Here is’s policy on ads:

Adsense, Yahoo, Chitika, TextLinkAds and other ads are not allowed on free blogs.

Now, itself runs ads on select posts and pages, but these are running off of WordPress’s own Google AdSense account. WordPress gets the money, not the operator of this site. It’s important to note that Orrin Woodward and his leaders are running blogs too, just like this site. High-traffic sites can enter into a 50/50 revenue split with, but this site has not yet chosen to do so. Maybe I should, since I have been getting over 25,000 pageviews per month lately!

The other popular critic site that I’m aware of is run by Lazy Man. The purpose of his sites, JuiceScam, TEAM Scam, and LazyManAndMoney are to educate people on personal finance and the dangers of scams like LIFE TEAM. I have no problem with him making money from Google Ads if he is teaching people who to save money, make money, and avoid scams like MonaVie, Protandim, One24, and LIFE.

My agenda is clear: MLMs such as LIFE and MonaVie are bad business opportunities wherein the majority of people will lose, rather than make money. Save your money, keep your freedom, and don’t participate in these scams.

Do you trust an anonymous person or your own sister?

This is a classic cult-strategy used to insulate the prospect from outside influence. Read up on Steve Hassan’s Freedom of Mind website to see what Rita is trying to do to Mark. Whether this site is anonymous or not is immaterial. What’s important are the claims laid out here. Can they be verified as being true? Here’s a short list:

  1. Orrin Woodward engaged in anonymous blogging: True. Read about Orrin’s exploits as Qrush here.
  2. Round Table members of TEAM have recently filed for bankruptcy: True. Read the official bankruptcy documents of the Darkangelos, Cullens and Hubers here.
  3. George Guzzardo initiated strategic default proceedings on a property in Arizona: True. Read the details here, paying close attention to George’s very own blog post about the property.
  4. Orrin Woodward was terminated from Amway: True. From the original Alticor blog (now offline) about the termination: “We terminated Orrin Woodward yesterday, along with several other leaders of his field organization, named Team. We’ll post our formal statement when it’s ready. Informally, here’s the story: We terminated Orrin Woodward for philosophical reasons. We did it for legal reasons. But the main reason we did it is because the way Orrin Woodward ran his organization was a disgrace to every person who’s ever tried to build a Quixtar or Amway business the right way.”

There are many more verifiable facts on this website. Look them up. Ask the questions and get the answers. All you’ll get from the pro-LIFE crowd is circular reasoning, evasive answers, and more questions.

Whiter MonaVie?

In Mark’s video, there’s ZERO mention of MonaVie, the MLM purple juice that Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, and TEAM has been hawking for the past three years. For all their talk about MonaVie being the official supplier of Fitness products for LIFE, there’s very little mention of it on LIFE blogs, meetings and tools. Check out this anti-TEAM video done over a year ago, using a similar video technique to Mark’s:

Will Mark Sign Up With Kathy Or Sister Rita?

My final question is this. In the video, Kathy first showed Mark the plan. But, it was Mark’s sister Rita that convinced him to sign up into LIFE. Will Mark sign up under Kathy or Rita? If he signs up under Kathy, would Rita get mad? If Mark signed up under Rita, would Kathy be mad? I’d really like for Mark to answer that question in his next video!

Readers, what do you think of Mark’s video. Does it help LIFE TEAM’s cause or hinder it?

78 Comments leave one →
  1. November 26, 2011 11:03 am

    [Editor’s Note: I copied @webelieved’s comment from here to this post.]

    More false advertising, passive, residual income! These people sound hilarious!!

    “No special deals! ? It is not possible for you to make more money than Orrin or Chris?”
    Oh yeah we used the same line! But truth you will never make more than them. You are adding to their business.

    “No special deals”

    There are special deals! They have already been given out to the top leaders! Teams have been shifted and given away from other people that were also promised residual passive income and then were stolen from.

    “We are distributing intellectual property. Selling at10 -20% of there costs”?

    Yeah right. Are you telling me that the books they are selling are 10-20% of the cost of the store?

    Really? Not even close! How about a seminar ticket? Are they 1 dollar?

    “Have you called a meeting with the critics?” Oh I wish you would! If you would like to all you have to do is call some of the leaders that have left Orrin,you know from those listed on this site. I am sure they will tell you the truth.

    “Negative sites are making money off Google?” Holy crap is that funny!!! Amthrax I haven’t noticed a google ad here. Did I miss something? lol!

    Now the prospect is “victimized by the critics sites? ” Why because he’s learning the rest of the story to make an informed decision?Hahaha!!!

    Oh you mean victimized by the blogs, the clone blogs that the LIFE “leaders” I mean cult followers are gaming Google with?

    “A system for every person…..with the combined efforts of a team”…… “Listen to some Cd’s” I mean cult propaganda…. you still have to do a ton of work to make a profit. Because you need 2 legs not one, and no one will build it for you long term. Just long enough to get you to take over.

    “I did not follow through with my word i have been judging you both the whole time, and it is my integrity that is shaky?” Are you serious? Is this the message…. other people outside the group have no integrity!

    Oh yeah now give him a book or a CD to fit his specific situation to bait him in. Use that to manipulate him in. Here comes more self critical b.s. they use…..” I need to change, I don’t care about my family if I don’t do the Team, My kids won’t think of me as their hero because I’m not building the LIFE business. I don’t have any aspirations, I am lazy and don’t give a crap about them if I don’t build it. I won’t be all I can be.”

    Guilt, guilt guilt used for manipulation! I think I will PUKE!

    This is disgusting ! Holy smokes I am going to send this to a cult expert. I’m going to ask them to comment on these mixed messages. There are so many cult messages in this!
    Thanks Mark Haas for making this. 🙂

    It helps us in the cause. We can really see what types of b.s. messages they are sending out, and you manipulate people! You were a good student of the brainwashing system!

    * all my comments on this blog are my opinions and experiences with Team and Orrin.

  2. November 26, 2011 11:04 am

    [Editor’s note: I copied @me’s comment from here to this post.]

    You’ve got to be kidding! Do people really believe this s^(*&t? in the video Mark Haas made to convince people?

    Finally, I do so agree with you “The greatest trick of the Devil is convincing people he doesn’t exist……..”. However, this way of seducing people by using ignorant believers shows how very busy he is out there!!

  3. switch permalink
    November 26, 2011 3:04 pm

    I had to click on the video that was offered after mr. haas’ from mr. robson.

    I do believe this is one of the first I’ve seen showing part of the “LIFE plan”….what’s wierd is, the cameraman seems to love a “certain technique” while filming the meeting giving that special effect of robson being blurry at times…. is it me or does it seem like their special effects give the impression of the viewer being drugged or falling into a trance or hypnosis???

    Whatelse is completely bonechilling is, they make a joke out of being brainwashed….

    Check this out…

  4. November 26, 2011 3:42 pm

    The blurring is just cross-fading between editing cuts.

  5. switch permalink
    November 26, 2011 3:54 pm

    LOL. oh I know, Amthrax.

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:02 pm

    I see what you mean Switch…lol.. Stars have aligned?…hmm.. I think he just remade the movie “BELIEVED”…ROFLMAO. He says; Whoo we got one…but he died. 20-30,000 people around the world on Tue night…All 6 of them clapped!

    They are in a WAR? They are to quite acting like they are so noble and truly go serve our country. He is so entrenched in the ideology and doctrine and spews it with speed with smooth and flattering words, just like all cults use.

    Holy Crap the cult is working well…”WE PLAN ON BRAINWASHING TOO”…then all 4 people laugh. Alternative Brainwashing…once you can unplug…is he serious…small group of people who believe a certain way, he can’t even complete a full sentence or full thought. Billionaires now become socialist? Big goverment…small people…how many times does he say that one. “You are being brainwashed…raises his voice..cadence.. Unbelievable! And they think they are about Big people and small goverment. Desensitizing by telling people they are brainwashing people. This is outrageous.

    Did NOT mention Monavie ONCE….And How does Dallin feel about this? I think we should be looking for public knowledge about MV vs Orrin soon. It is obvious Orrin used Dallin just like he does every person he comes in contact with for his agenda and then dumps them like a bad habit. And it seems Rob here is sterotypying ‘billionaires’…once they become billionaires…they become socialist..really?

    If they (the gov’t)..don’t tax us the scam would be over…noticed how he slipped that one in.

    Seriously does this guy think he knows all the people in the world who read and who doesn’t. How arrogant..which is exactly what the brainwashing system does to people…they become so arrogant and authority on everything in life. How could a person stand to listen to that for more than 2 minutes.

    Bottom line Goverment and Education outside of them is BAD. BAD.BAD. They are Great, Amazing, and know everything about everything. They are using the Milieu Control to the hilt! Us vs Them the entire time. It Screams of the Cult it is!

    I watched the entire thing and it was torture….lol

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:06 pm

    Amthrax…Hope that video can be saved before anyone takes it down and it can no longer be viewed. That video makes me want to sue for brainwashing and the cult they are.

  8. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:16 pm

    Rob Robson,

    Been in business 8 days my a**, love how every re-launch is masked as a new group and new opportunity. Why not say “we have been together for years, made some really crappy decisions in the past, and now are trying something new”? Why not tell the truth?

    Always spinning, always selling, smoke and mirrors, rhetoric, hyperbole, and cdspeak.

    Rob just so you know, Life is communism, not free enterprise, you are taking rights, freedom and money from your downline knowing that less than 5% can earn from the network. And then brainwash them into following you without ever addressing the facts.
    You and I both know where truth comes from, and you disgrace yourself by inferring that truth comes from Life. A lie wrapped in the clothing of truth is still a lie.

    And you quote Skousen to boot, totally amazing. Why not get into Ezra Taft Benson’s proper role of government as part of your spill? Do you really feel right about this?

  9. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:21 pm

    Rob Robson

    LIFE has launched the most Revolutionary compensation plan to monitize the Freedom Revolution!

    Like · · Share · November 13 at 12:40am ·
    Kevin Thompson and 2 others like this.

    Seems our friend Kevin Thompson is all on board with Robs ridiculous Facebook post about how Life has a revolutionary compensation plan.

    Vogel and Collins were right, and to think I was respectable to Kevin. Kevin is a puppet just like the rest of them.

  10. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:26 pm

    Amthrax, sorry, I didn’t mean to post another ridiculous Rob Robson video. I merely wanted to show that Kevin Thompson was sucking up to Rob on Facebook, but I should have caught the fact that the link would throw up the video.

    If you want to pull down my post, and repost it with a broken link, please do so, it is your call.

    Kevin Thompson is full of crap.

  11. switch permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:33 pm

    O-M-G!….I was thinking the same EXACT thing on the movie, “BELIEVED”!!! ROFL!

    If robson isn’t a clone of that guy, I’m not sure who is!

  12. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:36 pm

    Who the hell is this guy. Did he come up with the pay plan? And is he implying LIEf is making 30- 40 Million?

    Kevin likes what Orrin has done with the comp plan when still only 95% will always be at a loss ..Seriously WOW…knowing what Orrin has done to tens of thousands and continues to do?

    Pure residual income really? Bullsh*t. What spot was givin to this guy? Who’s team is he on? Sorry, I could not even finish this hyped up BS.

  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:39 pm

    I think if anyone can get through it without throwing up someone might want to anyalize it. Thanks Brent…more than I can gut though. 🙂

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 4:41 pm

    Besides these are a great collection of video’s that should all be forwarded to the FTC, and DOJ and whatever else organization.

  15. switch permalink
    November 26, 2011 5:14 pm

    Yeah…..have you checked out his “Rob Robson Depth Squad 1” video on youtube?

    Pretty damn sick, rob…..

  16. November 26, 2011 7:32 pm


    Instead of reaching assumptions about the interpretation of punching a “Like” button, just ask me. I thought you connected with me on Facebook to engage in a conversation , not troll for bytes of intel and reference them completely out of context. I’ll “Like” a lot of posts to follow the conversations that transpire. I “Like” Barack Obama even though I’m not a supporter. Unless you “Like” a post, you’re not notified when there’s comments. Feel free to interpret my written comments…but when someone just hits a button, at a minimum, contact them to figure it out before roasting them. Where have I shared any written or verbal affirmations at all about the LIFE program? So why did I “like” Rob’s post? It was a prospecting video and I wanted to see if stuff like that actually works.

    I’ve shared multiple articles that I’ve written about pyramiding, got an anti-pyramid scheme bill sponsored (and killed), sued a pyramid and actively promote more regulations. And you ignore everything and point to a “Like” button as proof of being “full of crap.” C’mon! I still have not seen your 10 ideas to “fix” the industry.

  17. Vogel permalink
    November 26, 2011 8:09 pm

    Like button notwithstanding, you’re still full of crap Kev.

  18. Vogel permalink
    November 26, 2011 8:14 pm

    BTW, I couldn’t even make it to the 2 minute mark in the video without overtaxing my gag reflex. I’m stunned that these idiots would dumb down their point of view like this — creating their own imaginary dialog, the outcome of which they can control completely; in marked contrast with reality. Amazing! They may as well be scrawling their arguments in crayon, interspersed with those cute backwards letters that pre-literate children draw.

  19. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 9:10 pm


    Great to see your still reading, I thought you disappeared. Why not share your written affirmations about Life right here on this blog?

    Unfortunately Kevin, I believe you know the truth about all of this, as a matter of fact I did see you listed as President on one of the Nevada corporations. I am not saying that anything is wrong with that, It just leads me to believe that you have information, and know way more than anyone on this blog.

    You know that this is a massive wealth redistribution system, why not confess?

    And as for my 10 ideas, lets start with number one first. I am all on board for your online directory, I would support you fully on that, when do we begin? Would you like us to assist you, or will you assist us, which is it?

  20. No Team For Me permalink
    November 26, 2011 9:19 pm

    Ah, Rob Robson. another leader who did not build his original business as a part of Orrin’s team, but was stolen from Lennon Ledbetter’s Quixtar business and now calls members of TEAM as his upline without reference to the Ledbetters anymore.

    Also, notice the new flipchart for LIFE. What do those cost? Anybody know. I bet close to $200. Maybe more. Everyone just bought the TEAM/MV ones about 18 months ago. And now they are expected to buy the new LIFE flipcharts. In addition to the new Life Top 50 pack, the new Life getting started pack, the new Life 1st Night pack, the new Life additional info pack, the new Life Relationship pack, the new Life Power Player Pack, the new Life Depth Pack, etc.

    Yes, their individual tools are less as an individual tool than John Maxwell, Zig Ziglar, etc. However, Zig, John etc do not have people spend $200-500 every single month and then churn tools every 12-18 months.

  21. switch permalink
    November 26, 2011 9:41 pm

    It’s quite obvious Robson is in it for one thing and one thing only….same with Haas. Their slimy tactics go hand in hand. Did you see him on that so called, “conference call”???? My god, it was like a vulture or con-artist lurking in the shadows while his men do his dirty work.

    And what’s up with “Team Leadership” qualifying for any kind of grad schooling, mr. robson????? According to your info, you have no problem putting that down for your background. And team down plays any kind of PROFESSIONAL EDUCATION or DEGREE but yet USES a college level to FALSELY PROMOTE their “leadership package”??????

    I’m gonna venture to guess here and say that you never really saw “eye to eye” with Dickie either.

    what a jacka$$

  22. Hershall Sweet permalink
    November 26, 2011 10:34 pm

    From the Mark Haas video two things some to mind. One is that I might not know the exact identities of the people who post on the “negative” sites but I do know that my upline had been pretty darned close to Orrin and on recordings and they’ve vanished from Team. I know that at least two other couples that I’d heard on stage and on recordings are also out of the loop. Big leaders gone. I read the comments of those that post here and I make connections with familiar turns of phrase. Not proof of anything but enough doubt.
    Two is that most of us out here in the world crave more. We pass vacant buildings on busy street corners and think of opportunity. We see something not quite good enough and wonder if the tweak we imagine is marketable. We dream of vacations in the Mediterranean or Caribbean or road trips of historic sites with the family. This comes along and we read a few books that we’d never have picked up on our own and it all makes so much sense. The concept of being the hero is powerful.
    But we don’t get the results. Our leaders are wearing the same suits and shoes for years. They’re downsizing homes and shedding sports cars and strategically defaulting or even going bankrupt. The Mark Haas video didn’t mention that.
    And to answer Amthrax’s question. It is taught that if you find out someone else talked to your prospect first you should let that relationship continue and stop talking to the prospect about business to prevent “crosslining”. In this case depth is the key to Team Approach. I assume Kathy is the friend that the sister already got started – and she was already making more money so the last person on Kathy’s team would become Mark’s sponsor. Mark becomes the most excited and valuable person on the team.
    Those other videos are really good examples of Team presentations. I was tempted to sign up. Doesn’t it sound great?

  23. No Team For Me permalink
    November 27, 2011 5:52 am

    Dallin & MonaVie – watch the video of Rob Robson that Brent posted at the 5:30 minute point. Does this not sound like a direct slam to MonaVie? He’s talking about a hypothetical binary company that is “a very successful nutrition comapny, I’m not going to mention the name” who has a product whereby you get 100points for about $150. Is this not a huge slam to MonaVie?

    This is the type of talk that I’ve heard going on behind the scenes with people from TEAM. I’m sure they’ve been trying to convince MonaVie legal otherwise. But behind the scenes, they’ve been slamming MonaVie left & right in order to make Orrin sound better and convince everyone that their true business is Team (now Life), not MonaVie.

  24. No Team For Me permalink
    November 27, 2011 5:58 am

    Also, by posting this video, they are at least finally admitting that a handful of people were making millions and millions over the years. The same tools are now able to pay such lucrative bonuses to thousands of people? How can that be when I thought there supposedly wasn’t much money in their tools? Wasn’t Orrin having to struggle so much over the past few years 🙂 (puke!)

    Take out the thousands of distributors who will now be earning bonuses and they are finally admitting to the masses that they have been lying for years. What’s ashame is how many people have been so brainwashed that they don’t even realize this. You would think some of them would wisen up when the claims are make that they are finally making the tools business legitimate – in other words – IT WAS NOT LEGITIMATE ALL THESE YEARS!!!!

    If someone lied to you all these years, does that make it okay because they are now sharing the profits with you? What about all those years they lied to you? If they lied for that long – THEY WILL LIE AGAIN!!!!

  25. Mike Collins permalink
    November 27, 2011 8:52 am

    @ Webelieved:

    Rubies at 2,000? LOL that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I know Blue diamonds who are at that level…..barely. I know blue diamonds who made $450,000 in ’08 that are making $300-$400 a week now…..and dropping.

    I know a Black diamond here in corona that is making “only” $4,000-$5,000 a week. But that’s dropping as well. He was making about $7,000 a week at the beginning of the year. Not to worry though, India is here to save him. As a matter of fact he is on Ted Nuytens site as one of the Top 100 income earners at $1.9 million a year. I called Ted to let him know this is a false income claim and he says he saw 1099’s verifying this income. I told him if that is true the document is a forgery. He said I’m lying.

    I also sent a message to this Black diamond calling him out on his lie and he just denied it and said “I love making $1.9 mill a year” He had this posted all over his facebook trolling for MLMers in India. Just another douche bag.

    I know another Black Diamond in corona who is down to $2,000 a week.

    I know another Black Diamond in corona who is cutting grass and detailing cars for a living now (absolutely nothing wrong with this)

    So whats the point? The point is simple friends…….MV is literally imploding all across the U.S. It’s as though someone took a straight razor to their femoral artery. They are bleeding to death rapidly. The only thing keeping them alive right now is the international blood transfusion. The analogy may be a bit forced but you get the point.

    So don’t worry….it’s just a matter of time. Same goes with orrin and his cronies. Just keep doing what you are doing…….educating people a couple at a time. You tell two, then they tell two, then they tell two, etc. Pretty soon it looks like this 2 tell 2 = 4 then 8 then 16 then 32 then 64 then 128 then 256 then 512. In just 9 generations you’ve already saved over 1,000 people from orrin. Matter of fact, if this goes only 25 generations deep you have saved almost every man, woman, and child in the U.S. from this ridiculous “opportunity.”

    Isn’t the power of duplication wonderful?

  26. Mike Collins permalink
    November 27, 2011 9:03 am

    @ Kevin: Until you and guys like you stop trying to have it both ways people like us will probably continue to jump to conclusions about you. After all, we only have your past actions to judge you by. Once a person comes to the conclusion that, based on your words or actions, you are full of crap, that person will continue to view what you say and do through crap colored glasses.

    Kevin said: “I’ve shared multiple articles that I’ve written about pyramiding, got an anti-pyramid scheme bill sponsored (and killed), sued a pyramid and actively promote more regulations. And you ignore everything and point to a “Like” button as proof of being “full of crap.”

    I believe I’ve already responded to this list of “accomplishments.” Here is a legal term you are probably familiar with……preponderance of evidence. The preponderance of evidence leads one to believe you are full of crap.

    Now, go back to sleep. Don’t you have a teet to suckle on tomorrow defending the charlatans in this industry?

  27. November 27, 2011 1:19 pm


    I was not reading the thread. Somebody contacted me saying “Brent says you support the LIFE pay plan…” I had to read your comment before I believed it. And actually, you’ve already shared your first step in the ten step program to fix the industry. It was to eliminate breakage. Apparently, step 2 is the directory idea. What are the other 8? I was under the impression you were going to submit ideas that could be put in a bill that would outlaw pyramids while preserving legal status for the good ones. Unless you or anyone else can come up with a way to ban pyramids without threatening the Avon’s, Mary Kay’s, Thirty-One’s, Pampered Chef’s, Stella & Dot’s, etc, it’s a moot effort. As for your repeated requests for me to “confess,” I’ve already addressed it. While you seem on occasion to have an appreciation for rule of law, I’m surprised you would so easily ask me to break it.


    I’m not trying to have it both ways. It should not be an all or nothing proposal. If you’re of the opinion that all MLMs are illegal, you’re wrong. But I do not think this is your opinion. If you acknowledge that there are good MLMs (which I believe you’ve done), the challenge lies in creating legislation that sorts the good from the bad. We do not need to hash it out again here on this thread. I believe you’ve put your ideas somewhere else…something about talking with regulators and testifying at congressional hearings. But what are your ideas when / if that phone rings and they ask you questions?

  28. November 27, 2011 1:51 pm

    Dear Kevin:

    I think it is at the least very naive you supported something so controversial as the LIFE plan with a like button. I just do not buy your excuse. I think you are caught in the act and desperately try to find a way out because you realized you made a mistake.

    “It was a prospecting video and I wanted to see if stuff like that actually works.”
    “Brent says you support the LIFE pay plan…”

    So let’s hear it straight from you! Do you think this specific LIFE plan is legitimate and where 70% of the people who are getting involved will profit? I am not talking about other MLM-plans or companies, just this one.

    Just Yes or No is sufficient. If you cannot give an answer I am assuming you cannot bite the hand that is feeding you!

    BTW What happened to your plan of making a website with all the “bad” MLM-companies?

  29. November 27, 2011 2:15 pm


    Do we really want to engage in a debate about the motivations behind hitting a “Like” button? I was asked, I already answered. Hitting a “Like” button is not an endorsement! There, I said it. I do not endorse the content of the video. Do you want me to “unlike” it? I wanted to follow the conversation (which never happened). There’s no “desperate attempt.” Instead of simply asking me (which would not have been difficult), Brent reached a far-fetched conclusion and used a made up endorsement to disparage me. There’s no need to create drama where it does not exist. If you want to believe I endorse the plan, go ahead. To answer your question, I have ZERO opinion about the LIFE plan because I literally know nothing about it. I have no idea how the math works out nor do I care. I’m under the impression it’s a unilevel…beyond that simple piece of intel (which could be inaccurate), I have no value to add. I do not closely follow MonaVie or Orrin’s business because it has no bearing on my own business.

    As for the website, I never said I was going to do it. It was an idea. It’s still an idea. I just can’t figure out how monetize it to make it worthwhile. How does a directory like Yelp make money? I have no idea.

  30. November 27, 2011 3:04 pm

    Dear Kevin:

    You avoided to answer my question. You can find a lot of information about the LIFE plan here! Why don’t you study it and give your opinion after you can make up your mind!

    “I have no idea how the math works out nor do I care”

    With this remark you really show your true colors! How in heavens name do you want to clear the MLM-industry from its bad name or make a bill to prevent MLM-scams. if you do not even care about the ones that are happening right now? You do not want to study or acknowledge them? How can you accomplish something by law if you do not even have insights in a MLM-scam?

    Through your remarks, I am even more convinced that there aren’t any legitimate MLM-companies out there. You just acknowledged that you do not care and do not give a damn, even when offered to study the LIFE scam. I drew the same conclusion reading about the MLM-gurus.

    This leaves me with another question: Do you have the same attitude about the MLM- companies you work for? Do you also not really care what they are doing because they tell you they are legitimate? It seems to me that you do not want to put a lot of effort of finding out in anything that does not bring in any money!

    Until your last remark I was willing to see you as a professional who at least knows the ins and outs of the MLM-industry. However, because your unwillingness to investigate the facts about the MLM-industry has changed my mind. All your information you put on your own website and on this blog is based on your believe and not on facts

    You have proven yourself so wrong! Like the other pro-MLM-believers you are just sticking your head in the sand, denying facts and making a smoke screen on this blog by telling that there are legitimate MLM companies. Are you just throwing prospects of so they will contact you to hire you as a paid adviser to set up their MLM business?

  31. November 27, 2011 4:09 pm


    I did not avoid answering your question. I’m not going to give an opinion on something I know nothing about. Second, who has deemed it a bad pay plan? What authority does this person have on pay plan design? Is s/he biased in any way? Is s/he respected in the space? What makes any pay plan illegal on its face? There’s never been a single pay plan that’s been per se illegal. There’s been a number of court cases against pyramids and a lot of them deal with matrix plans…but are matrix plans forbidden? No. In the end, pyramid scheme cases focus on marginal customer sales (recruitment focus) and egregious income claims. So me looking at the math would add zero value to your question. Read the BurnLounge court decision. Read the Amway decision from 1979. Those courts do not base their decisions on the basic structure of the plans. So when I say “I could care less,” it’s my way of saying the numbers are not relevant for your immediate question about legitimacy. Is there a retail sales rule? Is the rule enforced? Are there special bonuses designed to accrue additional customer revenue? Those are the questions I care the most about. There seems to be this assumption that it’s somehow a fraudulent plan and there’s no way to truly know without looking at private numbers.

    When people are harmed, I do care. I absolutely care. It’s what led me to write a 90+ page ebook and sue a pyramid scheme. Although those efforts took countless hours and caused a dramatic stir in the industry, it was worth it. It seems that you and others on this site are just completely confused as to how I can be pro-consumer while at the same time being an advocate for the industry. It’s not as simple as drawing a clear line in the sand, one side says they’re all legal and the other side saying they’re all illegal. Regarding Team and MonaVie, please understand that there are only two companies in the industry that encourage and embrace tool companies with side pay plans (to my knowledge): Amway and MonaVie. What if your experience in MonaVie was unique to the industry? Are there companies in the space with serious problems (illegal)? Absolutely. Yes. Does it make the entire space illegitimate? No. I do not focus on Orrin’s model. While I know you’re looking for me to throw a punch in that direction as some sort of test of loyalty to the ideals of this community, I’m not going to do it. I’m very much aware of what’s happening in the industry and I’m doing what I can to make it better. If it’s not enough by your standards, you’re entitled to your opinion.

    No, I’m absolutely not fishing for prospects on this site. I seriously doubt there’s anyone on this thread that’s looking to start a MLM. It starts with me getting sucked into an argument and my inability to just “walk away.” Brent’s conclusion was specious and unnecessary. And if you or anyone else is curious, I dive deeper into a company after receiving a number of complaints. Once I’ve received about three complaints, it’s on my radar. But given the amount of work it takes for a class action, it’s hard to put one together against a small company because they’ll just fold the doors. I’m getting a lot of complaints about Wealth Masters International lately. Will they be in business long enough to weather a class action case? I doubt it. I’ve received one complaint about MonaVie and it was nothing specific. But even if I wanted to dive deeper, I’m immediately conflicted out so there’s no point.

  32. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 27, 2011 4:28 pm


    I will give you the benefit of the doubt on the whole Facebook “like” thing. Lets leave it at that.

    You said:
    “I have ZERO opinion about the LIFE plan because I literally know nothing about it. I have no idea how the math works out nor do I care.”

    Is that how you feel just about the Life plan Kevin, or the entire industry? When you look at representing a company/plan do you know what kind of compensation dollar allocation is employed, or does that even matter to you?

    Because if it doesn’t matter at all to you, then you and I are on two totally different pages. And really have no need to continue this discussion. When I read through your comments on the first thread, I kind of believed that you somewhat cared about what is happening in the industry. Do you know that there are thousands of people that are getting taken advantage of without having a full knowledge of their companies plan? Does that matter to you?

    I think for me to engage in further correspondence with you would require for me to know exactly where you are coming from, otherwise I am merely kicking against the pricks.

    I asked you a couple of questions through a Facebook message, to which you have not yet responded, and now it seems you have totally blocked me from messaging you further.

    I don’t believe you want my ideas at all but are here to patronize me, and the people on this blog.

    Exactly what do you mean when you said, “I just can’t figure out how monetize it to make it worthwhile.” ? Maybe you could write a book about the injustices in this system like Jon Taylor did, that could help fund the site, what do you think? He also has a ‘donation’ bottom at the bottom of an article like this, ( that would probably bring in a few bucks as well. And as far as having it be ‘worthwhile’, what would determine whether something was worthwhile or not?

    This comment popped up on another thread a couple of days ago, and to me this one comment made it all worthwhile.

    “Wow, this has been an extremely helpful site to stumble across. I attended my first meeting tonight. I had reservations about going, but have been repeatedly asked to attend by a co-worker and I really just wanted to get it out of the way so she will stop asking.
    Of course she sent me home w/ a started pack of some sort containing CD’s and a book, but after reading the posts here, I don’t even want to hear or read them. She is hoping I will have some “a ha” moment and really “get it” after attending a few bigger weekly meetings. Good grief, what can I tell her so she won’t bother me anymore?
    I honestly thank all of you for your honesty. Is there anywhere I can read more detail about downlines or uplines stealing a business? Why does this happen? Would Team LIFE members be aware of it or admit to knowing about it? I want to tell this co-worker of mine that she might want to be careful about it! Anyway, thanks again for the honesty here. I am so sorry for the losses you all encured. I am so grateful you have helped save me time, energy, and money.~Chris”

  33. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 27, 2011 4:36 pm


    Just saw your last post, and have another comment to add. I do not think the people here are questioning the legality of many of these companies, of course they are legal, they have guys like you to make sure they are.

    Perhaps legal or not legal should be replaced with right or wrong. Now I know that right or wrong does not matter in a court of law, but since when have companies changed their modus operandi from having great customer relations and providing a great opportunity to just operating within the law?

  34. Mike Collins permalink
    November 27, 2011 5:17 pm

    Kevin: “who has deemed it a bad pay plan?”

    I called it a piece of sh#t pay plan Kevin.

    “What authority does this person have on pay plan design?”

    I have all the authority I need because I speak the truth, something you might like to familiarize yourself with some day instead of towing the party line. (numbers don’t lie)

    “Is s/he biased in any way?”

    Guilty. I’m just as biased as you and Troy.

    “Is s/he respected in the space?”

    Not by the likes of you and your cohorts but I could give a sh#t what people like you think of me.

    ” What makes any pay plan illegal on its face?”

    Nobody said anything (to my knowledge) about whether or not it’s illegal.

    “There’s never been a single pay plan that’s been per se illegal.”

    True. I love how you qualified that with “per se”
    Just because it’s not illegal “per se” doesn’t mean it right.

    In regard to your quotes above: This is exactly the kind of bullsh#t that you guys love to spew.

    The reality of the comp plans and the allocation (or lack thereof) of dollars to the distributor force is what drives the dishonesty in the industry. I don’t expect you to agree with me Kevin OR even to be able to see and understand it. To do so would cause a crisis of conscience for you…….and we can’t have that can we?

    I’m not interested in playing nice with you or people like you. You are part of the problem. The problems with the industry are systemic. You and Troy seem content on treating a couple of bedsores while ignoring the disease.

    I had a conversation with Troy a couple weeks ago and brought up several major issues with the industry. The best response he could offer was “it’s always been done that way.” It’s done “that way” because the comp plans require it. 99% of the companies out there would be shut down if the existing laws were enforced. This came from an MLM attorney that you know personally. I don’t know which of you is smarter than the other but we can just call it a draw ok?

    My point is that you most certainly know what I am talking about so why don’t you just go back to “changing” the industry your way while continuing to suck at it’s teets and I’ll do it my way.

  35. November 27, 2011 5:50 pm

    Everyone – Let’s steer the conversation back to discussing this video (and related videos). While your discussion is fine, it’s not relevant to the current post.

    Remember, people coming to this site want to get information, not read flame wars between people they hardly know (yet).

  36. November 27, 2011 7:16 pm

    I seen that video on youtube last week and couldn’t watch through it, it repulsed me. I kept on skipping ahead (sliding the play indicator further to the right) – it looks like a video aimed at handling objections. I see her as a relentless jehovah’s witness attacking the guy’s traditional beliefs until he caved in.

    Ugh, just think, people I know are spreading this very same crap….

  37. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 27, 2011 7:41 pm

    Video made my sick. If you are reading this- DON’T JOIN TEAM. Also, I really think we are making a dent here! Please show this to the person that showed you the plan. (See its duplicateable) 😉

  38. Vogel permalink
    November 27, 2011 11:15 pm

    It’s simply not a realistic scenario. It’s a fantasy about how TEAMers wish the conversation would go but never does. If it were a realistic depiction would show things like a door being slammed in the distributors face or the “prospect” peeing themselves with laughter.

    They even pulled the old “pyramid scheme…???…what’s a pyramid scheme” ploy. That’s a scene right out of that clip from the movie Believe I posted a few days ago. The distributors who made this video doesn’t realize how silly and transparent it looks to REAL people.

    If we made a video like that it would actually be compelling. We know the real scenario a lot better than they do. It basically boils down to “so, you;re asking me if I want to pay you money so that I can join a pyramid scheme within a pyramid scheme built around inspirational CDs produced by some worthless arrogant dick that will allegedly help me to sell illegally marketed $45-a-bottle nutrient-deficient toxic grape juice in a venture in which I have almost as much of a chance of making money as I do of being struck by lightening; and all I have to do is join a cult run by greedy blasphemous creeps, and give up my time, money, family, friends, dignity, and reputation — basically everything.

    This, of course, is followed by belly laughs and the door slamming.

  39. November 28, 2011 2:05 pm

    @vogel – do you want to volunteer to create this video?

  40. No Team For Me permalink
    November 28, 2011 2:43 pm

    Vogel – I agree. We want a video!!!! 🙂

  41. Vogel permalink
    November 28, 2011 2:45 pm

    Amthrax, I think I really should take you up on that. Might make a good project over the coming holidays. And thanks WB, always glad to see that we’re sympatico on the things that matter — like humor. Ponder if you will how it seems to be absent in the world of TEAM/Monavie (unintentional comedy not withstanding).

    Might be fun to generate a top 10 list of TEAM’s worst knee slappers. As I recall, what they regard as humorous are anecdotes told from the stage by “bigwigs” who say things like…

    “…and my neighbor, who didn’t believe me when I said that TEAM is going to be bigger than Wal-Mart and Microsoft combined, said ‘this sounds like a pyramid scheme’ — so as soon as I leased my new car with no money down and finished covering it in Monavie stickers, I did donuts on his front lawn and gave him the finger while screaming, who’s laughing now loser?” […bursts of uncomfortable laughter erupt from the sheep pen…]

  42. November 28, 2011 4:10 pm

    I would use the Haas video as a starting point, but have the brother be infinitely more intelligent than Mark is at responding to Rita’s LIFE TEAM retorts.

    You can also find inspiration for TEAM talking points in the TEAM Speak post at the top of the site’s nav bar.

    When your video is ready, I’ll post it in a separate post for all to see. Looking forward to it!

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 28, 2011 6:02 pm

    No doubt it will be a knee slapper..I cannot wait..Wrap it in the bow of ‘fantasy’, wizard of oz and the way the “Believe” movie! hahaha 🙂

  44. November 28, 2011 7:26 pm

    I noticed that Mark Paul’s name has now been removed from the elder list on pastor dickie’s website … this is huge. Pastor Dickie probably feels relieved knowing that no more active TEAM LIEF members are pretending to be playing the middle of the road in his church, especially considering Orrin and the PC’s have been telling people that they needed a pastor which is more middle of the road to attract 1 million new people to LIEF.

    [Editors note: Changed ALL CAPS to regular case. No need to shout in the comments.]

  45. switch permalink
    November 28, 2011 7:35 pm

    Sounds like those two have figured it out, webelieved. 😉

  46. switch permalink
    November 28, 2011 7:39 pm

    LMAO! Yes, another one here, looking forward to the video.

  47. No Team For Me permalink
    November 28, 2011 8:03 pm

    Vogel – be sure to include the bankruptcies of the leaders who are teaching the finance part of the 8-F’s, the conflict resolution skills of leaders who lost a reported $25 million settlement, the fact that the only investment is the registration fee, $125 for 4 out-of-town majors a year, $80 a couple for a monthly seminar every month, the price of the monthly system cost, $10 a couple every Tuesday night, a Getting Started Pack, Top 50 Pack, Additional Information Pack, Relationship Pack, Power Player Pack, Culture Pack, Depth Pack, Flipchart, Leadership Pack – but the great news is – you save $150 a month because we no longer push you to by the juice now that it’s legal for us to push the CD’s.

    And I’m sure you could have a lot of fun with the P&P 🙂

    And don’t forget to mention all the leaders who have quit or had their groups stolen.

    Put me and webelieved in a room with you for an hour and we could give you enough material for a whole series.

    [Editor’s Note: Grammatical corrections]

  48. Vogel permalink
    November 28, 2011 10:06 pm

    Nice to hear that Dickie’s cleaning house…going all Matthew 21:12 on their money worshipping asses!

    Yeah NTFM, we could make a whole library of great videos. We should all make them. Have a fun friendly contest perhaps? Everyone can tell the story from their unique POV.

  49. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 28, 2011 10:14 pm

    Vogel, I agree. Amthrax could set up a vote, and we could even offer a grand prize. Ought to bring out the best in everyone. A little sarcastic humor would be hilarious. Who knows, we could even put them all up on our very own Amthrax YouTube channel.

  50. November 29, 2011 7:31 am

    I’m glad Rev Dickie’s cleaning the bad guys. He doesn’t need those meshuggenahs in his parish anyway. Those TEAMers only mess everything up.

    Vogel, I’m looking forward to your video.

  51. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 29, 2011 7:54 am


    I agree….I love!

    KC & Webelieved~

    In all seriousness this is a shame! They are telling people they need ‘middle of the road’ Pastor? Do they need a modern day Pastor who looks at the church as a Big Business So in other words they can’t be having a Pastor that would tell the real Biblical truth Orrin needs someone as you said who must be able to be blinded by those big donating checks believe their fake ‘guru’ status and promote them blindly.

    It is obvious to me this Pastor has bought into Orrin without even knowing him because he had him speak to the congregation of his church. If he only knew the truth about Orrin and if he is a true man of God he would not just trust Orrin by the ‘fake images’ Orrin carries and would know the real danger of what will happen to his church once someone from LIEf comes in. It becomes a recruiting breeding ground and the real reason for church gets lost by the blinded greed of these cons.

    They want to claim they follow biblical principle and are Christians but their actions speak so loud no one can hear their words. I hope this Pastor wakes up because we all know when it is all said and done he and his church will end up having innocent victims and will end up regretting it.

  52. switch permalink
    November 29, 2011 7:59 am

    Not too hard to figure out, is it gang!?

    From the sounds of it “JO123” and “Paul” here, went through the same process as a lot of others did. ….”did what we were supposed to do”, “asked all kinds of questions”….you know how it goes/went.

    JO123 said-
    “I met 100s of people and no one could answer fully my questions or concerns–every week there were more and more expenses that they conveniently hid.”

    Imagine that lifers… blew off a couple more here, that just wanted to know the truth. And what did you give them?…. The same ol’ beat around the bush-bullshit answer you always give.

    Honestly teamers, what do you expect from all these people coming forward, if YOU couldn’t answer the questions they had yourself? Just for them to keep their silence and move on?

  53. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 29, 2011 8:10 am


    So true..It is crazy they think that people will just quit asking questions if they don’t answer them! They need to pull their heads out of their…well, they ought to smarten up and figure out that ‘prospects’ are on to them. If someone can’t asnwer the basic questions they avoid, they KNOW they are hiding something…DUH! 🙂

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 29, 2011 8:13 am

    You can’t insult people’s intelligence and expect them to jump on board of your sinking ship! LOL

  55. Finally permalink
    November 29, 2011 8:58 am

    All Orrin’s current Pastor is seeing is the amount orrin is tighthing……..that is a shame………He will in time figure it out if he is truly a man of God……Orrin is using the age old mlm trick if bringing credibility to his business with a pastor on board………which in itself is sick and twisted………..Hey Orrin, what would Jesus say about what you’re doing?????
    They (PC) are the modern day pharisees………….I pray for justice to them

  56. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 29, 2011 9:14 am


    Why not send pastor a link to Amthrax?

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 29, 2011 9:39 am


    I join you in that prayer that Justice is served to the full extent of the law, quickly and swiftly!


    Good idea. 🙂

  58. switch permalink
    November 29, 2011 10:08 am

    Exactly, Speak.

    and btw, what part of the Amway/Quixtar HISTORY is any kind of an opinion?

    What part of the sick ILLEGAL CLAIMS and testimonies of M.V. are any kind of an opinion?

    I would say it only takes a mouth to try and cover up the facts. 🙂

  59. November 29, 2011 1:49 pm

    You brought up a good point. When I joined, I was under the assumption that Woodward and his men were making all their money off of Monavie, and I didn’t clue in really, until I joined this site here (amthrax).

    My upline told me that during the time TEAM was between companies, Woodward didn’t know if TEAM was going to survivie. We were told that Woodward left Amway due to ethical reasons and for a while TEAM was on its own, and it found Monavie and it was Monavie that really saved them.

    Buggers. What a pack of lies.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 29, 2011 3:03 pm

    Switch…Ah yes…them pesky little facts! It kills me they get people to fall for these LIES…but if they ‘stumble’ on…It will shatter or least put a crack in those rose colored guru believing glasses!!

    Webelieve…it is the best business bar none when they could parasitically attatch themselves to Amway, then Quixtar, then Monavie, now LIEf; providing fronts for their stealth tool pyramid scam…haha

    Izzy…Sounds like Orrin was sending the vicitm message…whinning…while he was stealing all the big leaders incomes.

    I await the day… 🙂

  61. Dorothy permalink
    November 30, 2011 7:15 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  62. switch permalink
    November 30, 2011 8:04 pm

    That’s just it, Dorothy….. there isn’t one single bit of PROOF that they’ve been successful with the new LIEF system in this ridiculous time frame. Not one bit.

    Lets see here…they have so many PC members up on stage, it supposedly takes hard work, commitment, and blah, blah, blah….. but yet LIEF just launched when??? Yeah, doesn’t take an Einstein to figure that one out, LIEFERS!!!!

  63. Finally permalink
    December 1, 2011 4:50 am

    The chronological event of what happened as I know it.
    Orrin get’s voted in on the IBOA board at Q, then Chris does.
    They start to get clued in on the internal numbers at Q ( how much we are over paying)
    Orrin and Chris recruit other Q guy’s into /team Haugen, /florence etc….
    They figure why let deVoss make all the money we can do product ourselves (energy drink and bars)
    We have this pesky little problem…A contract
    Start a lawsuit…..Q is a pyramid
    Orrin “This will all be over in 6 months”
    Orrin, If we don’t get product soon we are gonna lose every one…….
    Monavie comes into the picture, not because they were so great but because Q had nothing like it so they could and they needed something to give their teams otherwise they would have lost everything. Orrin has said “this is just a temporary landing pad”
    Lawsuit over, Team life….Why???? So orrin could control product.

    They had a business ready to launch, energy drinks and bars. When the lawsuit didn’t go as planned they had to scrap that and jump into monavie. We were lied to the whole time…..and others are still be lied to today, they will never come clean and life will never getter bigger than it is right now…………

  64. switch permalink
    December 1, 2011 9:12 am

    Yes….exactly, webelieved.

    So right off the bat, they begin with a LIE!

    How on earth can they stand up there telling everyone that their “success” is based off the new life system KNOWING THE FACT of them building it elsewhere???

    Think about it, ONE month into the new launch and POOF!, you have PC members???? Hell, they had PC members even on the PRE-LAUNCH!

    Just doesn’t make sense PC…..

  65. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    December 1, 2011 9:37 am

    What a fantastic example of “You only get what you picture.” They’ve positively thought themselves to success in record time! What a testament to the validity of the best system yet!!
    I’ll be Double, Prince, Grand Poobah, Shah, Ass Kicker PC by the next major!! You just watch!!
    Ahhh, I can see it now………….

  66. December 1, 2011 10:56 am

    That is a lame, lame, lame argument.

    Typical cult like techniques. Trust your family not the facts. You will be ridiculed for not believing me.

    The mantra of most MLM businesses.

    Troy Dooley, where are you when we need you!


  67. December 1, 2011 10:57 am

    What is tactically avoided when referring to the “leader” blogs is that they simply do not allow open debate on their business.

    Information control.

    Another hallmark of MLM.

  68. What the??? permalink
    December 1, 2011 12:57 pm

    I’ve never been in Life/Team/MV, but am friends with people who are.

    What I don’t get from the video is that she supposedly gets the lawyer to say he’s a loser – he needs personal development, etc. What!?

    Uh, I have no idea how much the subscription or whatever costs, but I’m pretty sure I can figure out what resources I want to utilize for my own personal development. Makes me think of my ex who occasionally demands I read some book to help me deal with “my” problems so we can get along better. Think I’ll find my own books to read, dumba$$.

  69. Finally permalink
    December 1, 2011 6:34 pm

    We believed, I know for a fact that in 2006 a pc member made 265,000 in team profit sharing for 1 month, it was a month in which they had major ticket profit sharing. That same pc member said that when they were with Q his largest check for product in one month was 14,000……….The whole time we were in the business they all swore that team profit sharing and q was was about the same…………lies lies lies. The whole time in q they said Q was a great company and the pay plan was amazing…….the minute they file a lawsuit they are a pyramid, the prices are too high, Devoss is a crook……..I mean the things that came out of my up line’s mouth about the Q was vile…..Did anyone else hear these things??? Florence, Haugen and Crawford got lambasted when they left, My up line crucified them. A few months ago I had the privilege of hearing some Billy Florence’s side of the story………….It didn’t match up to what we were told.

    And yes Rocket, information control is there strongest tool, in fact they bully you if you question them and make you feel like you are less than a man or woman if you somehow think that you do not need what they are peddling. Team life will run it’s course……..none of the RT will ever make what they did years ago.

    Exactly switch, they are promoting team life as the greatest way to make money ever yet no one has actually built just team life. Just as in MV, they brought teams over to the new pay plan and call themselves successful. All the black diamonds in in MV from Team hit that level after registering their existing teams, none of them actually built it from zero. In 3 years with MV not one of them moved up in rank yet other network marketers went from zero to black diamond in 5 months.. Tood hartog did and had zero experience in MLM’s. One guy hit black diamond, went back to ruby and built it back to black diamond all the while Chris, Tim and Orrin did not move up one rank, not one. By the way, Calvin Bacerra was the guy that did that. I have befriended some of the liberators ex teammates and I hear their up line, bought there way to diamond, should I say their team bought their way to diamond……they have the credit card bills to prove it………How does someone with character and Integrity take money form team mates, have them go into debt so they can parade on stage as a rank they didn’t actually achieve. Now to be fair they are not the only ones to do that I am sure and am also sure they were probably coached into doing it. Our up lines hit ruby the same way………Are you kidding me????

    One other point, and I am sure other’s on here feel the same way, if you do, feel free to share. When they call themselves mentors and coaches, what qualifies them??? How in the world can they claim to be mentors and be liars?? Orrin is the biggest perpetrator of them all. He knows that this stuff is going on, and is okay with it.

    I have no regrets of my time in the business, I did learn principles that I still use today…….The only thing I am, is, flabbergasted at the truth they say they stand for yet under scrutiny they fall way short of anything character based…….

  70. webelieved permalink
    December 1, 2011 6:42 pm

    What the ?? – welcome! Isn’t if funny from the outside looking in?
    Finally- I agree with all you say. Integrity…not. It is amazing to me they cannot see their own hypocrisy.

  71. Mike Collins permalink
    December 2, 2011 5:56 am

    Finally said: “In 3 years with MV not one of them moved up in rank yet other network marketers went from zero to black diamond in 5 months.. Todd hartog did and had zero experience in MLM’s. One guy hit black diamond, went back to ruby and built it back to black diamond all the while Chris, Tim and Orrin did not move up one rank, not one. By the way, Calvin Bacerra was the guy that did that.”

    “I hear their up line, bought there way to diamond, should I say their team bought their way to diamond……they have the credit card bills to prove it”

    Finally, I know you are probably not too impressed with these guys but just in case, I have news for you…..this is exactly how all these guys hit black diamond out here in so. Cal. And now it’s imploding…literally.

    Todd Hartog is making “only” approx $65,000 a month. Still quite a bit of money but not black diamond pay. He has the strongest business out of all the BD’s. Calvin is only doing about $20,000 a month now. But he is telling everyone that he is making $1.9 million. He even told Ted Nuyten that. Ted has him listed (along with Todd) on his wall of fame income earners at #63 making $1.9 million.

    I talked to Ted and he said that he has seen 1099’s. I told Ted that if that’s true it’s a forged document. He certainly has not dropped to Ruby and rebuilt it to BD. The sad thing is that Calvin posted this “achievement” all over his facebook wall to troll for networkers in India. So before one is tempted to give any of these guys kudos it might help to know they aren’t much different than the people we are discussing here on this thread.

    I was told by someone close to Andre Walton that he is down to about $2,000 a week.

    The reality is that this “business” model is unsustainable. Because of the rapid growth and subsequent decline of MV we now have a perfect example of the very things that Dr. Taylor writes about on his website. These models are UNSUSTAINABLE without new markets, new products, and a whole bunch of misrepresentations and outright lies.

    It couldn’t happen to a better bunch……….

  72. Finally permalink
    December 2, 2011 3:59 pm

    Thank you for that Mike. I think we all know it was unsustainable because most of the volume is done on bulk orders when signing someone up. If you sign up ten people in one pet and they all get a 12 case order that is 7,500 points. I guess it wouldn’t take long to go to BD.

    I do agree that most of MLM’S are unsustainable. Team life will last about 3 to 4 years and then they will be forced to change to something else, it is just the way it goes. They always have to keep you hoping with the next big thing.

  73. Mike Collins permalink
    December 2, 2011 4:06 pm

    That’s a great point Finally. The sad thing is these companies could make these models sustainable if they would change the compensation structures. But it’s cheaper for the companies to pay a few guys at the top big bucks rather than provide a viable business opportunity for the masses.

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 2, 2011 4:30 pm

    Thanks to people like you guys, the public is being told the truth and will make more informed decisions before to much damage hopefully. I wish they would quit giving false hope and lying about what a great viable busienss it is…when all the facts show they are nothing but full of sh^t!

  75. switch permalink
    December 2, 2011 5:38 pm

    I would have to agree, Finally.

    Orrin states today, Dec. 2-
    “However, even with this solid foundation, nothing could have prepared me for LIFE’s launch……….”

    Where’s the solid foundation, O???????? YOU’RE STILL BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, O!!!!!!

    You, yourself can’t even begin to scoot around that one because you know where the TRUTH lies and it’s definitely not anywhere remotely near what you call a “solid foundation”.

    Like stated above, 3 or 4 years down the road, you’ll rewrap your image and call yourself something different and continue with this god awful pattern.

    I have to give it to ya straight here, O…..I’d rather have my TRUTHFUL results rather than the FAKE ones any day of the week and I’m sure a lot of people HERE could agree.

  76. MemoryLame permalink
    January 16, 2013 8:58 pm

    I realize this is an old thread and I’m coming in on a couple of discussions from the outside, but I’m hoping to continue, what seems to be a productive (albeit messy at times) direction of a lot of former Team members. Here are several questions/comments that came to mind as I read through this thread.

    1) To the initial video- Rita the robot…

    2) Are there other posts on this site that you all could direct me to that include information on the teams based out of St.Louis? Haas, Abernathy, Van Buskirk, etc?

    3) Do any of the older members have the ability to create a mock up of the LOS from Orrin down to say Ruby Leaders? It would be cool to start a tree illustration to cross out names of bigger “leaders” as they jump ship.

    4) Is there a thread anywhere with solid information on why the split with Pastor Dickie and his family?

    5) Kevin Thompson, if I’m reading your posts correctly, you’re saying that whether or not it is unethical, this current Life comp plan is still legal, and as long as we don’t have hard evidence that anyone of consequence has represented it differently, there is no legal case? This is why you say you don’t care?

    I know at one time, you were in a control relationship with Allgrace Outreach (Director maybe??) I remember your face from the promotional video. Also, I assume you are the same Kevin that is married to Pastor Dickie’s daughter. So, my guess is that TEAM or at least some of its leadership were your clients at one time, so I don’t know how much you even CAN actually say about them now, so I’m not even going to ask you about that.

    What I would like to know is if you were going to draft new legislation to prevent some arbitrary selection of who gets paid or who keeps a team and who doesn’t where would you start?

    How do we define “retail” or “customer” in a way that ends this foolishness of hyper-recruiting that hurts people?

    Is there some kind of reporting measure that could be implemented or expanded that would make it easier for people to identify unethical and/or misleading claims about income amounts, sources, etc.?

    If you personally cannot or would not be willing to represent ex-team members that have been manipulated by various factions of this organization, could you recommend counsel that could/would?

    Something tells me that the reason you are so quick to point out legitimate MLM’s (Avon’s, Mary Kay, etc), is that you have seen some pretty illegitimate things occur by the hands and mouths of some of the very leaders mentioned repeatedly on this site.

  77. MemoryLame permalink
    January 16, 2013 9:22 pm

    Also, has anyone noticed this $30-40M figure on the tools biz floating around? $42 from the Forbes article, I think.

    Assuming that’s profit, not revenue.

    Forget what the comp plan says – Several times from stage Diamonds/PC’s made statements implying their income was roughly $500,000 a month. So, $500k x 12= $6M.

    Now, let’s say OW makes a cool Mil more than other PC’s annually:

    Woodward – $7,000,000
    Brady – $6,000,000
    Marks- $6,000,000
    Guzzardo- $5,000,000
    Lewis- $5,000,000
    Hamilton- $5,000,000
    Hawkins- $3,000,000 (bet you my own $ they aren’t paying him at par)

    Total Estimate – $37,000,000

    Well, Letters to Lindsey!! My Lawd! That’s right around 88% of the profit between just a handful of guys!

    I’ll bet you guys DO spend that “profit sharing” account down to 0 each month, don’t you?

    $3-5 Mil left.

    You pay Roundtable $100k each, so they think their RICH! Let’s say there are 30 of those.

    30 x $100k = $3,000,000

    So, MAYBE, $2 Mil left to pay the minions. That’s with supposedly 60,000 people buying system?

    I guess that wouldn’t be bad if they all thought they were just CUSTOMERS!

  78. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 17, 2013 8:21 am

    @Memory Lame, it appears to me like you have it all figured out.

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