TEAM LIFE Top 50 Books Price Comparison (Jan. 2012)
January 9, 2012
Here is a reader-submitted price comparison between the TEAM LIFE’s Top 50 books, Amazon, and the library. The Amazon prices are separated between those sold by Amazon itself and those sold by Amazon Sellers (new and used conditions).
Note: These prices were compiled in early January, 2011 2012.
| Title | Author | LIFE Price* | Amazon | Amazon Seller New | Amazon Seller Used | Price difference | Library Fee | Comments |
| Acai: An Extraordinary Antioxidant | Alexander Schauss, Ph.D | 12.00 | N/A | 3.97 | 0.01 | 11.99 | FREE | Amazon prices include S&H |
| Ant & The Elephant | Vince Poscente | 12.95 | N/A | 2.95 | 0.01 | 12.94 | FREE | Amazon Hardcover $13.57 |
| Attitude is Everything | Jeff Keller | 11.95 | N/A | 10.16 | 19.94 | 1.79 | FREE | |
| Be a People Person | John C. Maxwell | 12.99 | 11.36 | 8.44 | 5.74 | 7.25 | FREE | Hardcover |
| Bringing Out the Best in People | Alan Loy McGinnis | 7.99 | 8.99 | 3.25 | 0.01 | 7.98 | FREE | |
| Business School | Robert Kiyosaki | 12.00 | N/A | 7.00 | 7.94 | 5.00 | FREE | |
| Cashflow Quadrant | Robert T. Kiyosaki | 17.95 | 11.96 | 7.92 | 4.04 | 13.91 | FREE | New version from 2011 available new for $11.96 |
| Character Counts | Os Guinness | 15.00 | 15.00 | 2.95 | 2.00 | 13.00 | FREE | |
| Churchhill on Leadership | Steven F. Hayward | 15.00 | 14.49 | 5.72 | 0.25 | 14.75 | FREE | Cover different so editions may be different, but couldn’t find the one sold by LIFE/TEAM. |
| The Coming Aristocracy | Oliver DeMille | 14.95 | N/A | 8.75 | 8.74 | 6.21 | FREE | Edition pictured on LIFE/TEAM website is NA for Amazon. Different edition is 12.95. |
| Courage: The Backbone of Leadership | Gus Lee | 27.95 | 16.63 | 13.33 | 3.33 | 24.62 | FREE | |
| Developing the Leader Within You | John Maxwell | 14.99 | 11.32 | 8.16 | 5.87 | 9.12 | FREE | |
| DNA of Relationships | Dr. Gary Smalley | 14.99 | 10.19 | 8.49 | 0.40 | 14.59 | FREE | |
| Dream Giver | Bruce Wilkinson | 17.99 | 11.27 | 4.20 | 0.01 | 17.98 | FREE | |
| The E Myth Revisited | Michael E. Gerber | 16.00 | 12.91 | 4.99 | 1.89 | 14.11 | FREE | |
| Fifth Discipline | Peter M. Senge | 24.95 | 16.47 | 14.82 | 9.71 | 15.24 | FREE | |
| Five Love Languages | Gary Chapman | 14.99 | 6.95 | 5.69 | 4.89 | 8.04 | FREE | |
| Good to Great | Jim Collins | 22.00 | 17.99 | 10.85 | 4.65 | 17.35 | FREE | |
| Greatest Salesman in the World | Og Mandino | 7.99 | N/A | 5.99 | 2.65 | 5.34 | FREE | |
| How I Raised Myself from Failure to Success | Frank Bettger | 13.00 | 11.20 | 6.00 | 1.91 | 11.09 | FREE | |
| How Should We Then Live? | Francis Schaeffer | 19.99 | 13.17 | 12.69 | 11.98 | 8.01 | FREE | |
| How to Have Confidence & Power in Dealing with People | Les Giblin | 12.95 | 10.20 | 7.24 | 1.93 | 11.02 | FREE | Cover different so editions may be different. |
| How to Win Friends & Influence People | Dale Carnegie | 7.99 | N/A | 4.36 | 4.25 | 3.74 | FREE | |
| Launching a Leadership Revolution | Chris Brady & Orrin Woodward | 15.95 | 11.45 | 6.99 | 4.17 | 11.78 | FREE | |
| Leadership & Liberty | Chris Brady & Orrin Woodward | 17.95 | N/A | 17.95 | 17.92 | 0.03 | FREE | Available new by LLR Books. |
| LIFE | Chris Brady & Orrin Woodward | 23.95 | N/A | 23.95 | 99.99 | 0.00 | FREE | The used book price of 99.99 is not a mistake. Being sold by “masbooksnmore” from MI. Available new by LLR Books. |
| Love & Respect | Dr. Emerson Eggerichs | 12.99 | 13.27 | 9.83 | 5.87 | 7.12 | FREE | |
| The Magic of Thinking Big | David J. Schwartz, Ph.D | 14.00 | 10.17 | 4.77 | 1.54 | 12.46 | FREE | |
| McDonald’s Behind the Arches | John F. Love | 18.00 | 11.70 | 9.26 | 1.13 | 16.87 | FREE | |
| Millionaire Next Door | Thomas Stanley & William Danko | 15.00 | 8.73 | 8.54 | 4.39 | 10.61 | FREE | |
| Outliers | Malcolm Gladwell | 27.99 | 10.19 | 9.32 | 9.16 | 18.83 | FREE | |
| Personality Plus | Florence Littauer | 12.99 | N/A | 11.88 | 9.99 | 3.00 | FREE | Edition pictured on LIFE/TEAM website is NA for Amazon. Different edition is 11.19 |
| Price of Everything | Russell Roberts | 16.95 | 9.49 | 9.49 | 6.75 | 10.20 | FREE | |
| Psychology of Winning | Denis Waitley | 6.99 | 6.99 | 2.99 | 0.01 | 6.98 | FREE | |
| Rascal | Chris Brady | 21.95 | N/A | 21.95 | 18.99 | 2.96 | FREE | Available new by LLR Books. |
| Resolved | Orrin Woodward | 21.95 | N/A | 21.95 | 21.94 | 0.01 | FREE | Available new by LLR Books. |
| Richest Man in Babylon | George S. Clason | 6.99 | 9.99 | 4.85 | 3.80 | 3.19 | FREE | |
| Secrets of Closing the Sale | Zig Ziglar | 15.00 | 10.88 | 8.43 | 0.01 | 14.99 | FREE | |
| The Slight Edge | Jeff Olson | 12.95 | 14.95 | 9.79 | 17.83 | 3.16 | FREE | |
| Speed of Trust | Steven M.R. Covey | 15.95 | 10.85 | 8.96 | 4.75 | 11.20 | FREE | |
| Spiritual Depression | D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones | 18.00 | 12.11 | 11.01 | 7.25 | 10.75 | FREE | Edition pictured on LIFE/TEAM website could not be found on Amazon. |
| The 17 Essential Qualities of a Team Player | John C. Maxwell | 12.99 | 11.70 | 8.72 | 3.99 | 9.00 | FREE | |
| The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership | John C. Maxwell | 14.99 | 16.45 | 12.69 | 11.92 | 3.07 | FREE | |
| The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People | Steven. R. Covey | 15.00 | 8.22 | 6.10 | 3.01 | 11.99 | FREE | |
| Visioneering | Andy Stanley | 14.99 | 10.87 | 8.95 | 6.77 | 8.22 | FREE | |
| Wild at Heart | John Eldredge | 14.99 | N/A | 11.24 | 10.00 | 4.99 | FREE | Edition pictured on LIFE/TEAM website is NA for Amazon. Different edition is 11.31 |
| The Next Millionaires | Paul Zane Pilzer | 12.00 | N/A | 11.95 | 4.91 | 7.09 | FREE | |
| Wooden | John Wooden | 18.95 | 12.78 | 7.72 | 4.04 | 14.91 | FREE | |
| World’s Most Powerful Leadership Principle | James Hunter | 23.00 | 15.32 | 11.36 | 9.22 | 13.78 | FREE | |
| 771.02 | 404.25 | 448.56 | 391.50 | 472.26 | 771.02 | |||
| Amazon Seller Prices were the lowest price available | ||||||||
| Price difference is based on the LIFE price and the lowest price between Amazon, Seller New, and Seller Used price. | ||||||||
As the analysis demonstrates, you can save up to $472 on the Top 50 books by shopping intelligently. And, if the books are available in the library, you don’t need to pay anything.
Now remember what TEAM LIFE Founder Orrin Woodward said about the cost of products in LIFE:
Simply stated, LIFE will be the lowest cost provider of the highest quality leadership material in the marketplace, period. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it.
It may be in the future, but this is clearly not the case today.
Before TEAM LIFE members fall back on the familiar Amway/Quixtar refrain of, “Well, which online store pays you money to shop?” answer the question of where the money in the LIFE business comes from? Out of thin air? Razor-thin profit margins? Or marked up prices?
99 Comments
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AMTHRAX 
Hmm…I wonder what would’ve happened to me if I did go ahead and did my purchasing from Amazon instead of the TEAM people….woulda saved a little bit of money anyway.
Kudos to whoever put this together. Excellent work!
I’m surprised that the list didn’t include The 4 Hour Work Week by Timothy Ferriss. That book was actually quite practical, unlike a lot of the other books on the list. I’m guessing that some of the precepts in that book run counter to the TEAM/LIEf objective (i.e. getting distributors to work a 50+ hour work week).
I thought it interesting that some of the highest priced books were by Orrin & Chris (Resolved, Rascal)
Another interesting feature would be if someone would take the time to contact the publishers of these books and find out what the volume discounts for quantities over 5,000 would be.
I remember one of the books we received on system actually had a page in the back where the publisher was showing the volume pricing. If I remember correctly, on this particular book, quantities over 500 or 1,000 were down to $3 per book – yet we were all being charged $14 for the same book.
How is it financially responsible for people to continually overpay for tools which are marked up 100-500%? Is this the financial informaton they are teaching?
For people so proud of being smart with money (carpooling to save gas money to get to an event wth $30 tickets and $6 parking, for example) they sure poo-poo’d me for buying books on amazon and ebay. glad i did, too, it saved me the regret when I threw them away a few months later.
I still have no clue how anyone would actually consider paying what is it $50/month to subscribe to this stuff. Some of these books have been around for a LONG time. Had to buy 7 Habits for a college class I took over 10 years ago. It was on the old side then. They seem to be relying on “old school” media marketing. How much does the electronic edition cost for these books? You can probably check out the e-edition from the library too. As for subscribing to the CD’s, there is NO WAY I would pay for someone to send me motivation CD’s all the time. I don’t want to deal with all that physical media taking space in my home. I can download off of iTunes plenty of podcasts FOR FREE. I have my iTunes set to automatically download my favorite radio preacher’s latest podcast – a new one everyday. If I don’t have time/desire to listen, I just delete. Costs me NOTHING. I can stop listening, change podcasts, etc at ANYTIME, FOR FREE, with just a few clicks on my computer. That is FREEDOM to me. I control what books I read/don’t read, what speakers I listen/don’t listen too. I think I’m intelligent enough to figure out what I should be partaking of for my own self-improvement.
If these books and CD’s accomplished what they are purported to accomplish, then I would gladly pay full sticker price. They do not accomplish what they are alleged, to create financial independence and produce leaders.
The reality is they don’t accomplish anything other than providing significant profits to Woody, Baby, Clod, Mr. Strategic Default and company.
That’s all it does folks. You want a good book? Library. You want to keep a good book? Amazon.
Simple.
Amthrax,
I just found your site a few days ago and haven’t been able to stop reading. I was “All In” with TEAM & MonaVie. I bought books, cd’s, packs. I went to meetings, tastings, opens. I became a follower buying into all the BS.
A short while after Randy Haugen left TEAM is when I stopped actively working my business. Our Leaders tried to minimize Randy leaving by trying to say he and Chris Brady are participating in an experiment. For the next year Randy was going to see if Legacy tools were more effective than TEAM tools. At the end of this “experiment” they would analyze their findings and rejoin the teams with all the improvements. It would be bigger, better, unstoppable and we were all going to be very rich!
Even though I was taught to trust my leaders this explanation didn’t fly with me. Something just wasn’t right about it. Randy had always been my favorite speaker. Since I live in Utah, he and Val also did at that time, there were repeated opportunities to see him speak. The cynical spins and sarcasm he used on stage and in his recordings were quite entertaining to me. He reminded me of comedian Ron White.
When I stopped pushing tools and juice, I was 30, divorcing my husband of 13 years, and I could no longer afford to line Dallin & Orrin’s pockets. I felt an immense sense of guilt and failure as I took the vinyl MV lettering off of my still not paid for minivan. Everytime someone asked me if I was still in the biz I felt like crying. I was conditioned to believe that I would never be “job optional” in any other business than MLM and it ate me up inside. I just kept thinking I must not have wanted it bad enough, or I just didn’t have the guts. Whatever the reason…It was completely my fault for not working harder and not having a Do or Die Trying attitude.
Time went on and the sting subsided. I had other things going on in my life. I married an old friend from before my first marriage. Growing up my dad used to say to me and my 4 sisters, “Girls, It’s just as easy to fall in love with a rich man than it is with a poor man.” Just my luck I seem to find the poor ones irresistable! LOL!
We lost our home to forclosure after our short sale fell through. We moved to a rental home and was able to pay 4 months rent until we went under financially, had to break our 1 year lease, and move in with, drum roll please (sorry, couldn’t resist!)…my folks! That’s right! We are literally reduced to no assets whatsoever yet have mountains of debt, mostly from our previous marriages.
Recently, I’ve thought about getting back into TEAM and once I saw your site I’m NEVER going back to that again! However, My husband is a mechanic and we are working on getting him some more business. I wanted to get back into reading great books from REAL leaders. When I saw your post today I had to smile! I was going to ask you to post a list of Great Books by Real Leaders. I’m renewed and am ready to prove to myself that I DO have what it takes to be successful and I don’t need to get involved with TEAM or any other “business opportunity” that involves recruiting for that matter. I’m going to invest my time and talents into my husband’s business and I KNOW my fruits will be far sweeter than anything I ever had with TEAM and MV!
Thank you for keeping this Blog going! You’ve helped my immensely!
Kat
@Kat – I’m glad that my site has helped. Vogel mentioned the Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferris which provides a different point of view on how to structure and manage your life. It’s usually available in the public library and is worth the read.
Thanks for sharing the story about how the TEAM leaders spun Randy Haugen’s departure from TEAM. I hadn’t heard that story before. You’ll want to read the post Leaving TEAM and Orrin Woodward for more details on their departure.
katzrantz~
Thanks for your story…welcome to true freedom! Sorry for all your losses but I am glad you found the site, are ‘renewed’ and can see you realize you already have what it takes and will find books also for you to be successful. The best is you..the sting is gone and you have flushed the indoctrinated bs they wanted you to believe to keep their pockets fully and continually lined!
If someone you know needs to find out the truth send them here :)…This site has helped many, many including me!
Welcome to the site..Good Luck and hope you continue to read, stop in, and share! 🙂
Amthrax~
Great work on the Article….Thanks a bunch to you or whom ever that took the time…you all are awesome on here and did a great job!!!! That is some significate savings and even more important Go to the library..no doubt you could get quite of few of them there for FREE!!!!
I’m so happy others are making the comparisons. I’m very pleased that they’ve been published here! I hope others are choosing what’s best for themselves. I found many titles at a used book store and thrift stores and a different online book seller. At the time, there were just three that were a little less expensive through Team. Hundreds of dollars in savings! (But your group might not get on the Media Warrior Triple Crown list). I asked about volume discounts to have certain titles at meetings. No one had an answer.
katzrantz
Thanks for adding your story!!
Amthrax, this is a very timely post and I wish to thank whoever made this possible. After reading and researching comments made by Webelieved, Speak Your Truth, DAS, yourself, Brent H, Vogel and others on another Amthrax thread, I became very intrigued about the best-seller status of Orrin and Chris’s book “Launching a Leadership Revolution”. There is also an individual named Keith on the thread who provided enough fuel to drive me to call the Wall Street Journal, as well as the New York Times to inquire about the specific determining criteria which is used to declare a book a best-seller. I have a hypothesis which I will share here, and will ask for the communities help in determining whether there is enough evidence available to declare this hypothesis correct. Here is my hypothesis.
I have a gut feeling and thoroughly believe that the best-seller status of the above mentioned book was earned by gaming the system. Although I know the book sold lots of copies due to internal promotion, I believe the scam goes way deeper than that.
According to the New York Times there are over 200,000 books written each and every year in the U.S. and less than 5% sell more than 5,000 copies. And even fewer than 5% ever have a shot of making the best seller list. Someone on the other thread mentioned that even a book that had sold 3.8 million copies failed to earn ‘best-seller’ status. So to believe that Orrin’s book made it by virtue of its own merit is in all reality a very long shot.
I believe that Orrin and Chris know that writing a best-seller gives them instant credibility in the business arena, leverage within their own community, and an enhanced ability to manipulate people even more. In my opinion these two would stop at no lengths to put themselves in the limelight as business leaders, just as been proven here in this blog by the ridiculous accolades they have received as both leadership bloggers, and gurus.
I believed that on first run of this book, Orrin & Chris strategically placed copies with certain wholesalers and retailers with the idea of buying back their own book, and redistributing it within their own community.
Authors have done this in the past to gain notoriety, but most have done so as a personal investment knowing they would lose money in order to build their own persona. Because Orrin & Chris have a captive market, they could game the system to the utmost degree without ever losing a penny from their own pockets.
Think about it. If I knew which wholesaler the New York Times obtained data from, I could purchase however many copies through a shell or company name, or several company names directly from this wholesaler. Especially if I had a captive market of lets say 10,000 people on system or so and I estimated I could move around 7-10 copies per person on system. DAS stated on the other thread that he personally purchased 24 copies of this book, I will bet that many others purchased multiple copies as well.
I believe they purchased mass quantities of their own book through wholesalers and certain retailers, thus hyper-inflating the sales, and obtaining best-seller status All the while knowing that in the end they could resell the same books to their captive market. In essence, the books would never have to leave the Team office as the sales rolled in from the wholesaler or retailer. No loses would be incurred because all it would do is raise the wholesale price from $2-$3 per copy to $5 or $6 per copy which would be more than covered with their normal $15.95 Team price.
I believe that they knew exactly what they were doing and were creating their own scenario to propel their book to best-seller status. They knew how the New York Times gathers data and that when they called a certain wholesaler that the wholesaler would report sales of 50,000 or 100,000 copies over a short period of time which would be more than enough to earn them a best-seller status.
I am waiting for several emails which may confirm my gut feeling on this but I felt I would throw it out to the community to see if anyone else may have some leads or information to back my suspicion. I know this is what happened, I am just waiting for evidence to confirm it.
If this is how their book became a best-seller then I would have to conclude that this is one of the most despicable things I have ever witnessed. Although I currently have no evidence to back up my theory, I am about 99% sure that this is exactly how it played out.
So that’s how those buggers made it to the “best seller” status, I was wondering why I never heard of Woodward and Brady and that nobody else have heard of them, because most people would easily recognise best seller authors.
TruthSeeker~
Great Post! There is no doubt and I am as certain as you are that they gamed the ‘best selling’ system and Orrin even said it in so many words. He said he sold 100,000 copies before it hit the shelves. Thanks to all the teams…which our team bought cases and cases and cases and cases….as a matter of fact I am sure I still have all the ‘pre-orders’.. some where!
Looking forward to your follow up post…thanks for your courage and willingness to get the TRUTH out!! 🙂
Truthseeker- Wow that is some good info! I cannot wait to hear what you find out. This is so dispicible if that is what they did to get fake credibility! They should be ashamed of themselves for misleading and manipulating people to take their money! I feel bad for all the people like me that bought into this bag of lies and had years of their lives wasted on this lie, time with children wasted, night after night! YEARS THAT WILL NEVER COME AGAIN!
I really wonder what a judge would think about all of this?
Shame on you Orrin! And you profess to be a Christian? You should be more afraid of doing, or overseeing all of the horrendous things said here, acting like nothing happened, not repenting and having to meet your Lord and Maker!
@TruthSeeker – Claims and theories like these require proof. Go investigate and report back with your findings. If they can be corroborated and verified, we can make it into a separate post.
@TruthSeeker
Maybe they learned the trick from Michael Treacy and Fred Wiersema. Do these names sound familiar?
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Best_Seller_list
In 1995, the authors of a book called The Discipline of Market Leaders colluded to manipulate their book onto the best seller charts. The authors allegedly purchased over 10,000 copies of their own book in small and strategically placed orders at bookstores whose sales are reported to Bookscan. Because of the ancillary benefits of making The New York Times Best Seller list (speaking engagements, more book deals, and consulting) the authors felt that buying their own work was an investment that would pay for itself. The book climbed to #8 on the list where it sat for 15 weeks, also peaking at #1 on the BusinessWeek best seller list. Since such lists hold the power of cumulative advantage, chart success often begets more chart success. Although such efforts are not illegal, they are considered unethical by publishers.[11]
Especially the last sentence explains it all
Although such efforts are not illegal, they are considered unethical by publishers.
Just another piece of evidence of the despicable level these gurus are willing to go to abuse and lie to their money making flock.
We know they had enough shell companies to do a lot of things! LOL!
I truly love doing this! Here’s the plot exposed, verbatim:
This adds precedent to motive; now all we need is the smoking gun.
Here are a couple more sources that describe how bestseller listings can be jiggered.
http://www.amarketingexpert.com/from-book-to-bestseller-what-it-takes-to-crack-the-list-and-why-you-might-not-want-to/
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/columns-and-blogs/soapbox/article/21779-how-to-rig-a-bestseller-.html
Have a look at the details and see how many apply to Orrin’s books.
I hadn’t heard about this sort of thing in the book publishing industry before, but it’s common knowledge in the music biz.
http://shallowrewards.blogspot.com/2010/05/worlds-apart.html
http://socyberty.com/people/sound-scam/
Great work Vogel!
Advance print runs, sales surge, buying up a lot of copies within a short period of time. Sounds interesting huh? The difference between them and other authors is the fact that it wouldn’t cost them a dime to be best-sellers. With a captive market on the receiving end, they would never have to eat a single copy. Your right, all we need is a smoking gun.
Who wants to order “Launching a Leadership Revolution” in bulk? It is that easy and cheap!
http://www.book-pal.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=Launching+a+Leadership+Revolution
Also just a general question. Are these books written by writers who support the MLM way of doing businesses, or are there also “independent” writers (for example well-known respectable business professors) whose words may be twisted to support the gurus in their crooked way of doing business?
If the latter is the case OW has indeed found a clever way of marketing/promoting himself!
@me – Some of the writers (Kiyosaki, Pilzner) are known to be MLM-shills (among other things). Some of the writers are the MLM leaders themselves (i.e. Orrin, Brady), and some are known authors in the leadership field (Maxwell, Covey, Ziglar) or other fields (Gladwell, Wooden).
Brent and Vogel, there is a smoking gun…………
I can’t comment on many of these books because I’ve only read a few of them (Gladwell and Carnegie for example). But I’ve witnessed how they get twisted to serve the needs of the MLM slave-masters. The examples I’m thinking of are based on “Outliers” by Malcolm Gladwell, a book about exceptionally accomplished and talented people and what it took to get them there. One of the key observations in the book was that people like Bill Gates, NHL hockey players, concert violinists, and the Beatles all had in common that they had put in at least 10,000 hours of practice honing their skills.
Steve Merritt(less) spoke about Outliers during a recruitment session in Germany — I wrote about this back in 2010 (see July 22 post titled “Is Monavie Executive Steve Merritt Illiterate?”)…
http://static.lazymanandmoney.com/text/monaVieArchive.html
…and Lazyman wrote an excellent article about Orrin’s references to this book as well. Orrin, quoted in the article, had this to say:
http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/orrin-woodward-scams-monavie-team-lies/
In both instances, the gist of the book got grossly oversimplified and distorted, and it was used as nothing more than an excuse to coerce people into investing 10,000 hours (4 years of 40 hour work-weeks) and a lot of money into the Monavie/TEAM scam. Orrin’s offensively dishonest BS hides the fact that there are myriad of factors beyond the distributor’s control that are the true causes of failure in the business — like the sad mathematical realities of the business model, and various forms of malfeasance by the kingpins.
Just imagine what one could do with 10,000 hours, other than losing money in the Monavie/TEAM scam. According to Gladwell, you could be a top-level athlete, musician, or computer programming genius.
The scammers are robbing people of a lot more than just their money. Time is an even more precious commodity.
Vogel, you wrote “In both instances, the gist of the book got grossly oversimplified and distorted, and it was used as nothing more than an excuse to coerce people into investing 10,000 hours (4 years of 40 hour work-weeks) and a lot of money into the Monavie/TEAM scam. Orrin’s offensively dishonest BS hides the fact that there are myriad of factors beyond the distributor’s control that are the true causes of failure in the business — like the sad mathematical realities of the business model, and various forms of malfeasance by the kingpins.”
That is exactly why they twist the lack of logical business practices. Somehow they lean towards the belief that longevity = success. There are simply too many other mitigating factors that negate the effects of persistence, work and longevity.
There are two types of people who earn from MLM compensation plans. The first is someone who has the full advantage of timing and positioning on their side. These folks are anomilies in the industry, true deviations from the rule. They happen to get involve at the right time and right place and are able to capitalize on the movement and momentum of a companies growth. Examples would be like the Corona, California bunch who Mike was a part of. There was a perfect storm that brewed in Southern California, and they all entered Monavie at exactly the right time. Another example is the Utah bunch with Wilson, Haugen, Sims, and a plethora of other Diamonds associated with that group. Amway was brand new in Utah, there was no internet to learn the facts, and all factors were on their side. Within a decade there were literally over a hundred diamonds in Utah and surrounding states. A third and final example would be the vertical growth that Visalus is now experiencing. Because of a massive online presence, and ingenious marketing that company has become the juggernaut of the industry.
Those who are able to participate and succeed due to timing and positioning are a select few, and are subject to terminal implosion once the initial vertical growth recedes. There are going to literally be thousands of BMW earners from Visalus who can no longer afford the payment on their car once the gig is up. When the bottom fell out of the Amway growth in Utah, they had the tool scam to fall back on as a way to keep themselves in profitable. The tool gig was being reigned in for those in Monavie, thus Life was forced to emerge. There is no infinite market for an MLM to grow, and since the products are usually unmarketable, the model will eventually dry up.
The second group of people who earn from MLM compensation plans are an even smaller minority. They are the group that has put in the time and effort to really learn the ropes and the rules of the game. They have made lots and lots of contacts in the industry, and have been able to gain a firm understanding of the mechanics of MLM comp plans, as well as the inner workings of MLM companies and their initial launches. These people are then given deals within the company either through recruitment incentives, volume incentives, loans, or a combination of all of the these.
These are the real crooks of the industry as they have pulled back the curtain, yet have chosen to engage all for the sake of personal interest. They willingly participate in the game, and are willing to hurt others as long as it lines their own pockets. There are hundreds of examples of these characters, and I have even been on the receiving end of some of these types of ‘deals’. Mike Collins was recently offered 2 different ‘positions’ within 2 different companies that would have ensured great financial success for him. These deals happen every single day of the week, and if you haven’t received a deal yourself you are part of someones team who is taking full advantage of everything the company is offering.
Unfortunately 10,000 hours of effort without the ability of having these mitigating factors in your arsenal of tools will mean absolutely nothing in the MLM arena. The mathematics of the compensation plan will never let you have a winning team no matter how many years you build your business. There are 2, and only 2 ways to earn in the industry as a distributor and I reiterate both 1. You are an anomaly who is earning due to positioning and timing. This will end soon so you better save up the money. or 2. You are a crook who has learned to play the game and are doing so without any remorse for the hundreds or even thousands of victims you are creating.
Vogel & Brent~
Excellent Post! I wish we had learned all this years ago, it would have save over a decade of devotion of blood, sweat, and tears! I have never had a more impassioned loathing for the industry, Orrin & Co. than now.
This old bridge can’t take much more weight and something is going to have to give! These scumbags have reaped their ill-gotten gains for way too long! But it is comforting to know that a site like this is getting the real truth to those that are lied to and believe they will get all their dreams and goals through this farce. I wish everyone single person on the planet that will be sucked to see this truth and not fall for it! It is no wonder that orrin has to ‘hand out’ free teams that btw were stolen from others hard work! I don’t know how the snakes even live with themselves all the while stripping willingly others; of their family Time, Money and Effort! It is flat out criminal to me that they do this willing and knowingly. I await the day the reaping begins.
They find suckers who trust them and bust their ar$$es for years starting with nothing to build a business, and make money for those at the top. Others are given freebies and positions to play the game, lie, and sell their souls to perpetuate the lies!
Did anyone note that the books listed are all about vision and/or lift up the mlm of the day they are involved in? I don’t remember reading any book about running a real business with solid business principles, profit , loss etc.
They cannot teach those as it would create cognitive disonance in their followers minds.
One of the best parts of this site is that claims are backed up. While I believe the claims on here about the false best seller status I am waiting until they are verified. I have no doubt they will be though because the research on this site is amazing. Best of luck to you all.
Freedomhaha~
I couldn’t agree more and although some of us have known all this for years, there are people like Amthrax, Vogel who loves it..haha, and Brent and I am sure others who have the patience, smarticles and are amazing fact finders!! And for that; I love this site!!!
I have some those books on the list I had them before I was approached by team. I was shown the BOMs and told, yeah, told not suggested which books I had to get.
When I told my sponsor I had a good selection of John Maxwell, Zig Ziglar and dale carnegie and others in my library already…my sponsor told me “well, but you didnt get them from TEAM.”
What?
Why didnt he he say “Great! Good for you!” Instead he tried to re sell me books I already had and read and refer to often.
The best-seller status of “Launching a Leadership Revolution” was definitely manipulated and gamed. Unfortunately I cannot find the email I received from the Team office instructing my group as to which company we should place our advance orders for it. I do remember that there were three companies to purchase from; Tim Marks’ group was to place advance orders through one of them, Brady’s group (outside of Marks) was to use a second, and all other Woodward teams were told to purchase through the third.
Former Round Table, excellent my friend. How ironic, TruthSeeker has a hypothesis and evidence begins rolling in to verify. Just as suspected, everything is done for a purpose.
Former Round Table- I may have that! 🙂
I remember collecting the orders. I will get back to you this weekend. I have a bit of digging to do. Do you remember it coming from the team office and would it have been early 07 or when?
I saved a lot of things, thought they may be useful, someday! 🙂
Wonderful post Amthrax. Kudos to whoever that had the patience to come up with this comparison sheet. Waked me up from my slumber and made a post about it:)
Webelieved said: “Former Round Table- I may have that! I remember collecting the orders.”
Heh heh…there’s that smoking gun I mentioned.
Indeed!
Yes indeed…I believe I have it too; at least the ‘pre-orders’/ orders and possibly could find some other stuff, I will do some checkin…hehe
Here’s the link to exeagle’s post about books and tools: http://exeagle.blogspot.com/2012/01/are-tools-really-worth-your-money.html Worth the read.
Wow! Another link in the chain…Turns out that one of the other infamous examples of bestseller-list rigging involved none other than Rich DeVos of Amway and his book “‘Hope From My Heart: 10 Lessons for Life”.
I just knew that Orrin had to have learned this through Amway; just took a while to find the trail of breadcrumbs. BTW, here are a few more good articles written about the case involving “The Discipline of Market Leaders” by Michael Treacy and Fred Wiersema. Good stuff. Might ring a few bells for some of you.
http://www.publishingtrends.com/2000/08/how-business-books-can-be-dirty-business/
http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1995/b343648.arc.htm
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/1995/04/03/business-by-best-seller.html
@webelieved – Eventually, we’ll have a section on recommended external websites and books.
Vogel, Cha-ching! Mr. Nevin said he wasn’t trying to game the best-seller system so we know his word is good right? Best-seller doesn’t mean a damn thing with all of these shenanigans in place.
When @Former Round Table wrote, ” I do remember that there were three companies to purchase from; Tim Marks’ group was to place advance orders through one of them, Brady’s group (outside of Marks) was to use a second, and all other Woodward teams were told to purchase through the third.” That pretty much confirmed any suspicion I have.
Best-selling authors, NOT! Best leadership blog, NOT! Top leadership gurus, NOT! Incredibly talented con-men, yes definitely
I absolutely love the concept of Preponderance of Evidence!
How about that separate post Amthrax?
I read the same email from my PC Leader (i might still have it) about organizing which store we were suppose to buy the Launching a Leadership Revolution through. It was DEFINITELY an organized effort to push the book onto the best sellers lists for instant credibility when promoting OW or CB. It was openly discussed on our teams and although the leaders knew ‘what’ was going on, ‘everyone’ ignored it because it was going to help make our business LOOK more credible, and at the end of the day… it would make it easier for us to convince new people to join. Looking back after being unplugged from the ‘system’… I realized now that this is manipulation and distortion of the truth. A new person should ask themselves without being sucked into the ‘logical’ speak from stages and CD’s, are the PC’s telling me to do something that they don’t do themselves? (do the right thing, be honest, act like a Christian’)… its hard to separate the two.
We will have a separate post when there is more concrete information to share. If you find anything, send it to me via email.
“But Ron Land, a sales executive at the book’s publisher, Thomas Nelson Publishers, said that getting the book on the best-seller list was indeed the motive for arranging the sales at bookstores.”
”The purpose of directing those sales through the stores was to get the book a presence in the marketplace and get it on the list, and give our marketing a jump-start,” Mr. Land said. He said he believed that it was ”very common” for business book authors to arrange bulk purchases either from seminars they lead or companies they run, directing the sales through stores to get on the lists.
”Most people who are successful in the business book area have a large machine behind them, like Amway; that is just the way things are done nowadays,” he said.
I believe those statements say it ALL but one huge issue; Just because…it is “very common” and “that is just the way things are done nowadays”..
Does NOT make the Unethical..Ethical and NEVER will!! These common practices of unethical behavior is exactly what we have see from Orrin for years believing under the false pretense their shenanigans were Ethical just because they say the are; and they..controll the information and enviroment..(tell people they are LOSERS if they watch T.V. or disagree with them if they get the outside truth) then the only thing you hear is they have… Integrity, Courage, Honesty, God fearing Christians wah..wah..wah! Control, Control, Control.
Can you say unders some serious undue influence and Brainwashed!! It has been proven; and those who were there KNOW for a Fact that they tell the masses (blind followers) what to do to game it for themselves…The ‘guru’ status, the bogus gamed awards, best-sellers list..and on and on. That is why the followers STILL come on here and many other places on the web and use their ‘Orrin’s awards defense,’.. which makes them look even more brainwashed…especially when the facts are right their for them to read! LOL
They repeat whatever Orrin says.. got the top and greatest award from the IAB..they apparently haven’t read Amthrax site..haha. I noticed the humorous video has over 8600 views on you tube and the ‘defenders’ are blasting (gaming again) the comments with the same old sickening rhetoric about Orrin’s phony awards…
Greetings.
Policy council members have said from stage that the “guru” list is someday going to be all TEAM members. And because the community is going to be so large (1 million), TEAM authors are going to be on the best-seller lists day #1 after their release. Heads up – Tim Marks is currently writing a book. I expect one from Guzzardo, Hamilton, Lewis, and Hawkins in the future, as well. Why not? Might as well have seven best-selling authors as your business leaders. That’ll help with their credibility. Think it’ll get them to 1 million by 2016?
The difference between a legitimate authors and team authors is that when people show up to book signings it is because they are fans of the author and want to meet them and get an autograph. Tea authors call into their teams and have teammates show up to the signings and buy multiple copies of their books. That is vastly different than having mainstream America show up to buy a book, if fact if their teams did not show up how many people do you think would show up to one of their book signings???????? None……
Seriously I bet the number of books that just sold off the shelf to the everyday Joe never reached 100…..Write away Tim, your team and other teams will buy all your copies and then you will have it passed down in system and claim you sold thousands of copies……..when in fact those thousands will have been forced down through your system……what a joke. It is like buying a super bowl ring from the pawn shop and claiming you played in the big game………
Billy, keep dreaming.
I was just following up an interesting tangent related to Orrin’s book. I noticed that Orrin makes the following claim:
“The authors are making a donation equal to 100% of all the advances and royalties they receive for this edition to All Grace Outreach in Flint, Michigan. Learn more about All Grace Outreach charity …CLICK HERE”
http://launchingaleadershiprevolution.com/
“Click here” links to the webpage of a 50(c)3 charitable organization named All Grace Outreach (at P.O. Box 320587, Flint, MI), and that site lists the following people as the organization’s directors: Laurie Woodward (President), Jill Guzzardo, Rob Hallstrand, Terri Brady, Amy Marks, Jackie Lewis, Lana Hamilton. If I’m not mistaken, these are TEAM Policy Council members.
So right of the bat, the red flag goes up – Orrin’s donating proceeds from his book to his wife’s organization, which seems less than philanthropic to me. But keeping an open mind, I decided to follow the money trail.
According to the organizations homepage, “All Grace Outreach originally began in 1993 in Maine as ‘Christian Mission Services’. In March of 2007, the charity organization was transferred to Michigan and the name was changed to All Grace Outreach.”
Guidestar.org doesn’t have a listing for “All Grace Outreach”, but it does list a “Christian Mission Services”. In Fllint, MI. Guidestar also has the tax filings (IRS Form 990s) for reporting years 2006, 2007, and 2008.
http://www2.guidestar.org/organizations/01-0477310/christian-mission-services.aspx
The 2006 IRS 990 shows that the organization was based in Stratham, New Hampshire, and that the board members were the following people: Tyler J Libby, Deborah Libby, Gary A Libby, Dr Richard Morgan, Roger Prince, Steve Leifheit, and Jason Labbe. I’ve never heard of any of them and don’t believe that they are related to TEAM or Monavie in any way, but I could be wrong (Amway perhaps? Anyone?).
That year, the organization received $13,529 in donations and paid out a mere $1,250 in services/aid (but ran up $8,600 in operational expenses)
In the IRS 990 for the following fiscal year 2007, which is when Launching a Leadership Revolution debuted, the organization was still going by the name Christian Mission Services, but now it had switched the base of operations from Stratham, NH to Flint, MI (4072 Market Place Dr — which also happens to be the registered address for TEAM of Destiny, Signature Management Team, Kevin Thompson, and LIFE), and the board of directors had been replaced with the following people: Billy Florence, Tim Marks, Kevin Thompson, Robert Dickie III, and Robert Cassidy. I don’t know who Florence and Cassidy are, but I know that Marks and Dickie are/were with TEAM, and I sure know who Kevin Thompson is too (interesting tidbit there eh?).
That year, CMS took in 161K in “donations”, paid out a mere 78K in aid/services (a dismal 48% of donations received), and ran up 31K in operational expenses. Those expenses included – and here is the kicker — $29,667 in legal fees.
So based on the 2007 IRS 990, we already have several interesting questions to ask:
(1) How did this organization come to suddenly switch its base of operation from New Hampshire to Flint, and to replace its board members with TEAM people?
(2) What kind of legal fees could this organization have possibly run up in its first year of operation? Are these perhaps legal fees for TEAMs defense in the Amway lawsuit?
(3) Why is Kevin Thompson on the board of directors (and what does this say about his historical ties with TEAM and Orrin)?
(4) Why was the payout on these alleged “donations” (which presumably included all royalties from the book) so dismally low (only 48% of donations received), and what did the 78K aid/services payout go towards?
(5) What does this say about the philanthropic angle that Orrin is playing up on the book’s homepage — i.e. the donations go towards a Christian charity — when in fact, he and his henchmen have their hands in the charity’s coffers.
The 2008 IRS990 shows that the charity took in 55K in donations and paid out 90K. They seem to have botched the form because in one section (line 12) it indicates that the 90K payout was for salary, compensation, and employee benefits, with nothing paid out in grants/aid/services (line 10), but on line 28, they claim it was paid out for “mission services”. The only director listed for 2008 is Robert Dickie, and he is listed at the end of the form as the recipient of compensation. My guess is that CMS gave the 90K to Dickie under the pretense that it was to be used for mission services. Is this perhaps how they paid Dickie off to join or stay in TEAM?
As I mentioned above, the charity’s website now lists Laurie Woodward as President along with several other PC members, and Dickie got the boot.
I call this sort of thing “faux-lanthropy”.
The moment I think it cannot get any worse… it does.
Great research Vogel, another seed of doubt about OW, TEAM, LIFE, etc. that will be planted in prospects and hopefully current TEAM members.
You rock Vogel!!! Keep up the good fight my friend.
They will N E V E R get to a million anything but dollars in Orrin’s pockets……They do not have the foundation built on righteous principles…….they speak them but in no way practice them.
The Libbys are part of the Legacy organization. Tyler and Gary are both brothers from Maine, and Amway Diamonds. They have been around for 30 years and were both part of the original Yager/Wilson organization. They also run some sport fishing camps in Maine.
http://www.libbycamps.com/
How the ‘charity’ left their hands and moved into Orrin’s is a mystery to me.
Good work Vogel! 48% payout of the donations received does seem pretty suspicious, but it is conjecture at this point. I love the fact that the fence is closing though!
Just a few points I wanted to add, which others can confirm. I believe that both Gary and Tyler Libby, who you mentioned where directors in the original company in New Hampshire, were diamond level distributors in Amway who joined the Team during their Quixtar lawsuit period. I think they were involved with the lawsuits on Orrin’s side, but then left the Team soon after joining Mona Vie. I’m not sure if they were in the Haugen downline or not though, maybe Brent or others could confirm. I don’t know who the other directors were.
Billy Florence were the president of the Amway distributor board, who ultimately joined the Team and was instrumental in laying the ground work for the Mona Vie merger…I believe due partially to his connections with Brigg Hart. He also stopped defending Orrin during the lawsuit period. Bob Cassidy was the former CIO of the Team, and was part of the mass exodus out of the team office, along with the Dickie’s, Thompson and others. I would HIGHLY doubt that any of the money from this organization was used to pay the Dickie’s to support the Team…Orrin wouldn’t have been a fool enough to have tried something that blatently unethical and Dickie would have stopped supporting the Team much earlier had he attempted something like that I’m sure.
I could take a guess and say that taking over CMS was more attractive for Orrin than starting a new charity, since CMS had been in operation for many years prior. Might have looked better on paper than a brand new charity springing up in Flint with Orrin at the helm.
UTBAI — Great info! BTW, look at the 2008 IRS990. It does in fact seem to indicate that Dickie received the 90K payout.
Keep it coming guys we need this NY “bestseller” fraud to be exposed completely.
These punksters must be willing all they can that this train truth stop from blasting into town with it’s load. Perhaps if they believe enough, perhaps if they want it bad enough….ha whatever. It’s funny how the crap they claim to “teach” can’t work for them now. O pukester and his cohorts are scuttering like little mice right now.
I am all giddy for some more!
P/S
Amthrax, once the evidence is definitive how about notifying the kahuna in charge of the NY Times best seller list? This story is in itself worthy of a NY Times’ “best story” piece.
Hey, I might be off base here, but I don’t believe that all of the ‘donations’ came from the sale of the book. I vaguely remember the Team taking donations at all major functions. Didn’t they pass a bucket around?
Any way you look at it that amount of ‘claimed’ donations is dismal at best. Looks more like a tax shelter than a true charity to me.
Is there a way to verify what kind of services the donations were expended on? Lack of which provides a perfect masking of these charlatans’ activities. In fact I beleive the donations are “donations” into these charlatans’ pockets or into the legal defence fund you guys have talked about in other posts. I am inclined to believe so seeing as to how the bulk of it’s operating expenses were legal fees.
If I recollect well Billy Florence was a scAmway diamond, I don’t know presently.
Here is part of the conversation that took place under ‘Ex-Team’ on the ‘donations’ from the LLR, it was ONLY from the first ‘edition (Hard cover). Orrin wanted everyone to believe that it was from all of them and when he promoted this generous giving..ha.. you had to listen real close when it was promoted to ‘catch’ the ‘catch’. Now it seems there was a lot more to this strategic.. supposed generous ‘donation’.
WILL permalink
March 11, 2011 8:58 am
UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is directly from the ALLGRACEOUTREACH website on their NEWS page:
Friday March 11th
Ongoing Support from Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady
Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, authors of Launching a Leadership Revolution, are making a donation equal to 100% of all the advances and royalties they receive for the original (first edition) book to All Grace Outreach in Flint, Michigan. Learn more about this book and the authors by visiting http://www.launchingaleadershiprevolution.com.
I GUESS THIS ANSWERS OUR QUESTION ABOUT THE DONATIONS FOR THEIR LLR BOOK
Awsome work Vogel!
Here is another Post that includes some info. on Both MV and All Grace, Charities.
WILL permalink
March 11, 2011 8:55 am
All Grace Outreach update:
http://www.allgraceoutreach.com
From the Allgrace Outreach website…
Who Benefits?
In following biblical principles, AGO prioritizes beneficiaries as:
1. Those who spread the Gospel of Jesus Chris throughout the world. (Matt 28:18-20)
2. Those who help widows (1Tim 5:3) and
3. Those who financially support orphans in need. (James 1:27)
Following these principles, the funds from AGO have been directed as 80% for spreading the Gospel, 10% to charities that help widows and 10% to the aid of orphans. Up to three times per year, the directors of AGO prayerfully go through a selection process to determine who meets those descriptions and will become the recipient of the funds for that term. To God be the glory!
From the NEWS page on All Grace Outreach:
January 30, 2011
Columbus, Ohio – AGO Welcomes Guest Speakers from the M.O.R.E. Project
AGO welcomed special guests Katy Holt-Larsen and Sergio Ponce from The MORE Project during an event on Sunday in Columbus, Ohio. “The M.O.R.E. Project is dedicated to changing lives and restoring families living in extreme poverty in Brazil. To the lives it touches, the MORE Project means more hope, more health, more caring and more love.” Chris Brady (AGO Supporter) shares a very touching and revealing conversation with Katy and Sergio about the harsh realities of life in parts of Brazil. The challenges facing the families, particularly the youth, of Brazil can be overwhelming. The efforts of MORE are focused on educating and improving the lives of those suffering and being lead astray by their culture. You are invited to listen to this very special talk by clicking on the link below. To learn more about the MORE Project, please visit http://www.themoreproject.org.
DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THE DIS-CONNECT HERE?
They are proclaiming that AGO is a charity to support and spready the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yet on a Sunday (most likely after the Sunday morning church service) at a Team Major Convention, they allowed representatives from the M.O.R.E project to come on stage and pimp their charity to the audience.
Do you think all those in attendance know that their money that they are donating to so-called spread the Gospel is going to a charity that is spreading MORMONISM?
Food for thought.
.
Here is another comment that maybe of help for those who are curious on the information between the soft and hard cover, copied w/some minor and spelling corrections.
Speak Your Truth permalink
March 11, 2011 8:38 am
TOD
Softcover:
It does not say anywhere I can find about donation of this one. Chris Brady owns Obstacles Press : and do you remember the bobble-head “obstacles” he was selling.”
Copyright 2005 by Obstacles Press, Inc.
First Edition May, 2005
Obstacles and Obstacles logo trademarks of Team Partnership, Inc.
Published by:
Obstacles Press, Inc.
PO Box 1109
Grand Blanc, MI 48439
Cover design and layout by Norm Williams
Comic illustrations by Sean Carton
ISBN: 0-9768645-0-9
Printed in the United States of America
http://www.leadershiprevolution.biz
The hardcover say:
Copyright 2005 by Chris Brady and Orrin Woodard
publisher
Business Plus
Hachette Book Group USA
237 Park Avenue
New Your, NY 10017
www. HachetteBookGroupUSA.com
Business Plus is an imprint of Grand Central Publishing
The Business Plus name and logo is a trademark of Hachette Book Group USA, inc.
Printed in the United States of America
First Business Plus Edition: September 2007
10 9 8 7 6 5
Library of Congress Cataloging-in Publication Data
Brady, Christopher
Launching a leadership revolution: mastering the five levels of influence/Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward-1st ed.
index blah, blah
Book design by Charles Sutherland
There you have it all (almost, except the blah blah!) and of course the rest of the “Leadership” stuff – good leadership stuff they took from others but in my opinion and experience “mis-leader’s”!
Also they did pass the ‘hat’ at the major’s for the AGO donations.
I remember them passing the hat for the AGO donations also.
Billy~
Thanks for the laughs. 🙂 The only million they will get to is a million who left the LieF Program..LOL
Speak, your a little off base with your ‘Mormonism’ comment especially since Sergio Ponce is not a Mormon and Katy Holt Larsen is not an active or practicing one, totally unlike you to make a bigoted comment like that.
Anyhow, I do remember reading that the Better Business Bureau had denied or declined to give Monavie a favorable rating because part of the requirement was to give a full financial disclosure of the MORE Project charity.
I believe there was a lot going on behind the MORE project than most know about. And somehow, I can totally see Team tying into the MORE project. Reminds me of the money-changers that were driven from the temple.
Did Team pass around donation buckets at their major functions? If Robin and Speak are correct, which I believe they are, and they did pass the hat, the donations that they are claiming with the IRS really do not match what was possibly gathered at any major functions. I remember them talking about hundreds of thousands being raised at each major, where is that money?
The LLR book was gamed for their own notoriety. They knew if they spread the orders around they could meet the best-seller status, which would further enhance their ability to self promote both their book, and their leadership guru status.
I meant to say a lot going on behind the MORE project that most don’t know about.
TruthSeeker~
I would agree, I didn’t say it, Will did. I copied and pasted his comments and he was comment was refering to Dallin Larson who is a Mormon.
I am not sure about Katy-Holt Larsen is a Mormon, she is Dallin’s sister-in-law so I could not be sure if she is a Mormon, it could be likely, since she is married to Dallin’s brother. I believe Will was refering to the clash of religions, the Christians and the Mormons also that Orrin claims he is a Christian.
Will should not be a bigot. And is there a clash? Never heard of such a thing.
Well I cannot speak for Will, You would have to speak to Will. I don’t know anything about what the Mormon’s believe. I took it as a ‘clash’ for a lack of a better term and understood it as his point being Orrin claims he is a conversative Christian and would be a conflict of interest to promote and fund the Mormon Religon through the More Project. That is how I took it.
So it appears as though these guys are behaving like mobsters, dreaming up tax shelter and money laundering schemes. Let’s face it, if they truly are crooks, then this is what you have to do if you don’t want to give your money to the tax man. No better way than to buy some non-profit business (and a church to boot!!!)!!!!!
Wow pretty cool, sounds like a scene from Breaking Bad – but it’s not. It’s real life, LIFE – I mean Lief.
Is it too obvious, can it possible be a trick? Where the strategy is they expect everyone to suspect TEAM to funnel money to the church. Then delve out the money to the board members, or whoever? Doesn’t TEAM bring in a lot of cash, as opposed to credit payments? I don’t know, but if they are getting a lot of cash, that’s easy to hide from the tax man, so they wouldn’t need a church for any other reason than to look charitable. Another very smart tactic. They fool some with the appearance of being charitable.
Good find by Vogel on the history of the organization before it was called AGO. I wrote about All Grace Outreach way back in December, 2008. Read the original post here, which includes a portion of an email from former TEAM lawyer, Kevin Thompson. Since 2008, the heads of the organization changed from the husbands to the wives of the TEAM leadership.
Launching a Leadership Revolution has something like 17-18 editions, and it’s my understanding that only proceeds from the hardcover edition would go to AGO.
@webelieved
Well captured in your last paragraph. I don’t discount anything past these charlatans. If they read the good book evidently it’s to skew it to self-serve their selfish motives. Like either guilt trip teambots from not leaving Team or perpetrate an image they are christians which they know disarms a lot of people and makes them put their guard down, then horror follows. It did me.
Great job guys.
Just another example of how TEAM LIFE cannot compete in a free open market, even with books.
I will bet the minute Tim Marks book comes out it will be required reading and be on the BOM list.
And I am betting that the info in the book will be the same info in all other TEAM books jsut re worded and witha pretty cover.
@not signed up yet
Of course you are right, their MO is clear. It’s the same stuff re-worded and then of course bom list. Look even closely it’s a damn attempt to throw something else at the teambots to feast on and a continuation to line the pockets that be. While it will have no bearing at all with being competitive in the open market it is tragically, just another extraction tool to relieve the teambots of their hard earned cash with a required BOM and mass purchases. Is that not how this game is played anyway?
Thus far, I cannot help to think that these charlatans are hoodwinking teambots to engage in, right in our capitalist midst, commie like activities like commie-trade, commie-tude and excuse me commie-nusm, etc, etc. The tragedy or say I might, shocking “success” of these charlatans is apparent when the hoodwinked masses believe they are freely making the choice to partake in this fashion of communism namely teammunism. Scroll up and meet teammunist Billy bot and see if his thought process will not make you shudder with sorrow over the veil upon his sight.
Hi Everyone, I just picked up the book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey at my local thrift store for …..(wait for it )…FREE!!!!!!!! Hope everyone is having a wonderful 3 day weekend!
Kathy!~…I knew there was a ‘better way’…now compare that one!….hahaha!
Exambot~
Great points…They operate in a closed market and logic system..but hey it works for the ToP tyrannts perfectly, isn’t that all that matters, here? ‘Free Enterprise’, Liberty, Rascalism, and Making a difference.. they scream. And isn’t that just the way business is run done today? And they have the audacity to come on here and in their closed cult to indoctrinate those unsuspecting souls, that Amthrax (all those critics that they are ‘critics’/competitors of) and this site is why are world is the way it is! It is simple, look in the mirror….without the smoke!
Correction the sentence should have finished with…’critics/competitors of the critics’ that is what the Team Lief PC and all others are.
Sometimes one also gets these books as Xmas gifts from family members who won’t stop trying to get you into “the business” no matter how many times you say no!
CeeEss-
Not to worry on the Xmas gifts you get…..they make GREAT kindling!
Now, if they still don’t get the hint after stoking the campfire/fireplace with LLR (LYING LEADERSHIP REVOLUTION) around Xmas time, then of course I would try and find another mild way of telling them to F off.
Is it me or do some of these titles seem to fit in well with songs around a campfire….?
\
“Dream Giver……”
“Wild at Heart…..”
“Love & Respect…..”
A devoted song for each piece of kindling being fed in. I think we’re getting somewhere gang.
**** tuning my banjo/guitar just for you guys.
Don’t forget the beverage and popcorn! :)…Switch you kill me…LOL!
Great report. Before Orin jumped over to MV and LIFE, I was in Quixtar. I spent $14,000 in meetings, the book club and CDs. I’ve learned from my mistakes and I’m a happy owner of my own business. I have a business where I’m the boss. No upline to boss me around; In Quixtar, I was brainwashed into thinking I owned my own business PLUS I had to check with my own upline plus their upline to keep me in-line.
Jamie E – So glad you are free of Orrin & Crew. Sorry you lost $14,000, but believe me, you got off cheap. I know a lot of people who wasted a lot more money than that on that joker.
Jamie- Thanks for coming on here are sharing. I know that your story will inspire others to quit!
I have lotsa stories. When I was in Quixtar, I believed in the Xs Energy Drinks. I bought $600 worth of product to give away! I was under the impression that these Xs Energy Drinks were so good that people would buy them or place an order with me on the spot! Wrong! People loved the drinks and wanted to buy them in the store. When I said that they had to order them through me, I got the cold shoulder.
In hindsight, no wonder my upline gave me the thumbs up when I bought $600 worth of cans. I was his buddy for the moment. He had great PV. I was burning holes in my pocket. I did the same crazy thing at a fitness club convention. Lotsa takers. No serious buyers.
I remember when the Quixtar leg broke away from our group and folded into Orrin’s group. Suddenly, we had late night meetings (after the regular group meetings ended at 10 pm) at Lyon’s until 2 am. This was crazy. I lived 90 miles away. Again, in hindsight, I thought it was to break you down to make you think you were part of the team. We were talking endlessly about the “plan”, the “breakdown”, talks about avoiding “people” who where “negative”.
Oh..about the $14,000 credit card debt. I managed to talk the bank about doing a payment arrangement so they can have all their money back. This is the 6th year and I’m only $800 away from paying that off this year. Yay!
Oh well… Live and learn. Stay away from MLMs period. You’re playing with a stacked deck. You think you own your own business. You don’t. The House always wins!
Jamie,
My credit card debt from my time with Team was a lot more than $14k. But I was able to make a payment arrangement w my banks also. Two more years to go on mine. I’ve never personally seen one organization cause so much devastation to so many people.
“The Magic of Thinking Big”
Here, I’ll even save you a trip to the library….
http://ebookbrowse.com/the-magic-of-thinking-big-david-j-schwartz-pdf-d312046177
I remember when one of the business “partners” had a birthday party. I thought it was strange that there was only Quixtar IBOs only. It seems that the IBO “friends” got my back for life. “Life” of the business or IBO of course. At the party, there was nothing but Quixtar-ese talking. No other languages allowed. Also, guess what? Birthday presents from the Gift Cards. Ooooh! You get to drink all the Xs Energy drinks you want!
Everything in the party was tax deductable.
The Quixtar thing reminds of the “Good Fellas” movie. The big shots are untouchable. Being a made man happens at the Major Functions. Everyone else in the audience gives their “blessings” upon the new “leaders” who made it. [The audience buys their own products to get your favorite “leader” on stage.
The only difference is that not every guy is named “Paulie” around there.
When you leave, you are an outcast. “Friends” are never seen again.
Am I bitter? Nope.
Just warning those who are on the fence to join the newest-latest-greatest-MLM (fill in the blank) who never got into debt and is building their own facilities so you too can get the large commissions through building your own leg!
Switch~
LOL! And we are labeled “HATERS” by the hater QRUSH himself…I mean Orrin. It is sad that people know they can get the same info. for free or a lot less, but then again they don’t know the Pay plan and their Policy and Procedures are stacked against them, and when that is brought up it is the same old worn out, “we are not in it for the money.” 🙂
Jamie E
Welcome, and I hope you continue to share the stories, it does help others even if it is just a tiny crack in those rose colored dream glasses that become a permanent fixture on all the eyes. Ours fell off when the registration into Monavie showed their lack of leadership, integrity, and unethical things. Then the light could be seen! 🙂
Jaime: thank you for recounting your experiences. My fondest hope is that some day, my own grown child will not have to print the same. Kudos to you for making arrangements on that debt, too.
Does any of the companies mentioned other than The-Life-Business pay you for buying books?
LIEf charges above fair-market price for the books on their list; if they give you a partial rebate, it’s still not nearly enough to be competitive with Amazon’s prices. The situation is akin to me offering you a $10 book for $20 and then pretending to be generous by giving you a 25% discount. You’d still be overpaying by 50% — clearly a sucker’s deal.
Amazon Affiliates programs pays you when people buy books you provide special links to.
Vogel- They always preached about how they love the free market. Are you suggesting they could be lying???