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A Downline’s Perspective and Request for John and Melanie Morgan

December 6, 2011

A former TEAM member sent me this email about his/her uplines, John and Melanie Morgan, who were former TEAM Round Table members. From what I’ve gathered reading this story and the thousands of comments on this website, the Morgans were seriously screwed by the TEAM leadership, including Orrin Woodward and George Guzzardo.

If there’s anything to learn from John and Melanie’s story below, it’s do not trust the LIFE TEAM leadership. Current members should be especially wary, since they might find themselves in a similar situation to the Morgans.

Here’s the reader letter:

I’m writing this letter because I’m sure some of your readers know John and Melanie Morgan from the TEAM, and I believe their story needs to be heard. The Morgans were Round Table, Triple 100, Sapphires and Rubies with TEAM. They spoke nationwide and had a CD called “The One Thing” in the Top 50 pack and were Top Gun winners. Well respected, they were promoted throughout all of TEAM by Orrin Woodward for many years. In my opinion, they sacrificed many years of their lives and precious time away from their family trusting the wrong people. I am deducing they have had to start over from zero, due to sacrificing everything to build their TEAM business over the years.

The Morgans had influence and respect from their teams because they truly devoted their time working their business. They spent 10+ years helping their teams grow into thousands of distributors. In Quixtar/Amway, TEAM and MonaVie the Morgans were at the top of George Guzzardo’s largest leg and developed it without much if any direct help from him.

Guzzardo or Woodward would call a meeting every now and again in their team but that was about it. For years Guzzardo managed his taproot from his hot tub in the woods. His team knows if it hadn’t been for the Morgan’s, Guzzardo wouldn’t have his largest, most profitable team including: Semple, Ahnen, Oettinger, Morris, Rassmussen, Spearing, Vogelman, Edwards, Purkette, Schweitzer, Postel, Bradford, Van Vorst, J. Peters, Wisniski, Merring, Park, Rodman, Doberstein, Brost, Croening, Boyer, Newbauer, Schreiber, Hemila, Blomdahl, R. Peters, Prescher, Hawkins, Luerquin, Klamm, Fisher, Graf, Shortreed and the thousands of other past and current team members not mentioned here. These people were all Platinums, Sapphires and/or Open Meeting Speakers spread over multiple teams.

In 2008, while John was taking care of Melanie through an illness, George Guzzardo took the liberty to do, order and overlook all kinds of dubious things in the Morgan’s team. This was a very disheartening time for them, but it quickly went from bad to worse. Guzzardo, their upline Policy Council member, used his influence to arrange covert secret meetings throughout Wisconsin in the Morgan’s teams. It was at these meetings where he and some of the Morgans’ own leaders smeared and disparaged them. Distributors were lied to and told John Morgan was raiding their downline into another business. Told to change their team name, they were informed that the Morgans would never speak from a TEAM stage again.

Why would George do this to his “friends” John and Melanie you ask? It was done because the Morgans looked at something else. The operative word here is looked. Looking at a business or job is not a reason or justification for a Policy Council member to destroy someone’s business or reputation, is it?

The irony of it all, is that unknown to anyone, for months Orrin was only paying the Morgans a pittance of their previous income, with no justification or warning. Previously they were earning ten thousand+ dollars monthly, and now the Morgans, Round Table members, were being paid thousands of dollars less than others at only the Profit Sharer level. Of course a respectable, good, honorable man like John Morgan would need to find a way to provide for his family when his income was taken away unexpectedly. No one would expect him to not be looking for another source of income under these circumstances, and we all know the Morgans clearly would not destroy or ruin the business they spent 10+ years building! Unfortunately for John, Mr. Guzzardo and some leaders didn’t see it that way. Many of John’s own leaders failed to even talk to him and Melanie before they shunned them. They just believed the pied pipers and followed them on down the road, many pretending he and Melanie never existed!

This fiasco produced even more division in all of the Morgans’ teams than was previously created in the registration debacle that George and Jill Guzzardo directed. The occasion where leaders were stealing personals from other leaders and when George had directed leaders to take whole legs from other leaders and register them elsewhere in MonaVie! The leaders who executed the meetings above and other questionable (and possibly illegal) orders during the registration into MonaVie created massive damage in their own teams. These actions truly revealed the lack of of integrity in TEAM leadership and have opened many people’s eyes to their true character. Thousands of people have left TEAM in the past few years because of this.

Not a phone call was received from the Woodwards, Guzzardos or any other leaders to talk about the issue they had before the nasty meetings were carried out! The same week the Morgans and a few of their downline leaders had their TEAM profit sharing meeting invitation reneged. In a email, I believe, Orrin Woodward called John Morgan a coward! This was weeks after he allowed Guzzardo and friends to destroy John’s credibility and his business! Furthermore, Orrin never sent them a letter or notice before he took the remainder of the Morgans income!

The pipeline, will-able, residual income Orrin and TEAM promised to everyone for over a decade was unjustly taken from the Morgans after years of their money, time, blood, sweat and tears were invested into this lie. Woodward and Guzzardo should be ashamed of themselves and convicted of their transgressions against their own leaders, who sacrificed their lives to make them fortunes and undoubtedly played a part in providing their lifestyles! Based on history, I have no doubt Orrin and George have recently taken all of the Morgans’ leaders and teams they worked in for over a decade from the MonaVie line of sponsorship and transferred them into the LIFE line of sponsorship. Guzzardo and Woodward are still profiting from the Morgans efforts and teams today! Furthermore, the LIFE contracts codifies what happened to the Morgans. This can happen to anyone who gets on the wrong side of Woodward and his chosen leaders! I do believe God has blinded their awareness of their own evil deeds and they must believe the ends justifies the means.

I would guess after all this the Morgans would tell you to run from TEAM, keep your day job and spend your precious time, all your nights and weekends with your family. I am sure they would tell you having a job will give you more time with your loved ones than building the team. I am sure they would tell you they have major regrets of being involved in this group that does not seem to practice the principles they claim to teach. They would tell you to get a real education and truly live your priorities. Do not waste your time on fake friendships. They would say keep your family and true friends close and enjoy every minute of your life with them. Know that no matter what you are called to do you are valuable just the way God made you. You are worthy and you are making a difference, whether you are a garbage man, a truck driver or a doctor. God has called us all to our tasks and values us all equally. He gave us gifts and talents and individuality so we can contribute to the world not so we can stuff them away and all become like someone else. I know Melanie would say follow God and your heart in all you do and love and care for one another above all else.

After all the Morgans and their family have went through now they have to deal with a life threatening illness. Unfortunately after lengthy sickness, Melanie Morgan was diagnosed with leukemia recently. She is hanging in there and is currently seeking medical treatment while waiting for her prognosis. It has been heart wrenching for all of us who love this wonderful woman but she is a fighter. Unselfishly she continues to worry about everyone else in her family. She loves the Lord with all of her heart and she wouldn’t want your pity. She would only want your prayers. So our family will be passionately praying for God’s peace and restoration of health for Melanie and her family. He remains the Great Physician and Healer. Please keep them all in your thoughts and prayers and we will continue to do the same.

I pray this letter helps others tell their stories with names and facts. My hope is the leaders above who participated in these riff-raff tactics are convicted of their transgressions against the Morgans and others. They claim they are Christians, yet they do terrible, corrupt things to their own friends with whom they have spent years. I hope followers will no longer be deceived by their lies they have been told, and I am sure you can see that Orrin’s teaching on resolving conflict is a ruse that he doesn’t even follow himself.

Keep up the good fight!

The events and knowledge expressed in this letter are based on what I and others have witnessed or experienced while on the Morgans’ team.

Read More Ex-TEAM Reader Stories »

222 Comments leave one →
  1. December 6, 2011 5:50 am

    This is so sad. It makes me 1000x happier that I got out right away…. for a few months I was committed to TEAM because I wanted to prove that someone outside the mold could succeed in the organization. As a non-Christian I felt like I didn’t really belong there and I felt extremely uncomfortable right from the beginning, but in a way it made me want to succeed to show other people like me they could do it. Silly me! I never realized (until after I quit) that it never would have worked because the PC would have never let me succeed. If god-fearing, hard-working people like the Morgans can still get screwed at the whim of OW, I can only imagine what a shambles my life would be if I’d stayed in.

    I am glad to hear the Morgans have some REAL friends who are still there to support them in such a difficult time… so sorry for their whole family for having been ravaged by the greed of a few power hungry rich white men. 😦

  2. December 6, 2011 9:50 am

    @Katie – I like your point about how you felt about wanting to be that person who shows can an outsider could succeed in the business. I think there are those within MLMs that don’t share the views our their edified upline leaders who think, “When I get up on stage, it’s going to be different.” But, the cards are seriously stacked against these kinds of people. Not only are they working against the mathematics of MLM, they have to fight against the biases and pettiness of their uplines. Be glad that you got out when you did.

  3. Vogel permalink
    December 6, 2011 9:58 am

    That was a powerful and touching account. Thank you for sharing that with us Katie. I will be hoping for the best for Melanie and her family, and that justice will someday be served.

  4. December 6, 2011 10:17 am

    Orrin Woodward = Slime

  5. Finally permalink
    December 6, 2011 11:00 am

    Wow, that is telling of who they are and what they will do. Tim Marks did the same thing to mike Raatz, only he did it in a text. Years of friendship and bam, we don’t like you anymore so we are taking your business, your income…………I pray for the day of retribution for the team…………It will come, and I have said it before I believe they will get hit where it hurts them most………their income, via the IRS. Well maybe not because as we all know orrin would never break the law for profit nor would chris, I mean they have said on cd their character is not for sale…….Tim has even promoted is 4th floor in his house as being a prayer room………….he could never do anything wrong with a prayer room……….

    I will put the Morgan’s in our prayers………as well as justice for those that deserve it.

  6. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 6, 2011 12:11 pm

    These stories need to come out, people need to see and understand what this organization is really about. I believe there are hundreds, if not thousands of similar stories to be told. The more who come forth and share their experiences, the more momentum the truth will gain. This message can come out of obscurity into the mainstream, and help others to find and realize the truth.

    When a business model is built on an unsustainable foundation, those who profit the most will continue to scratch and climb their way to the top no matter what the cost. Love, friendship, honor and integrity mean nothing when faced with the possible loss or collapse of personal lifestyle.

    Time and truth are on our side, and working 24-7 against them.

  7. webelieved permalink
    December 6, 2011 1:21 pm

    This is just SO discusting…….
    Kudos to the Morgans for leaving Woodward and Guzzardos sorry asses! They are the leaders with true integrity. They sacrificed it ALL to do the right thing! We will be praying for them. It must be soul crushing to have wasted so much time away from their kids and then to have to go through this ! 😦

    Orrin I have to say YOU are the COWARD and Guzzardo you are a discusting tyrant. Two bullies who need to go to the big boys “schoolyard” with orange suits on!
    Hope you are proud of yourselves. Puke…..

  8. webelieved permalink
    December 6, 2011 1:42 pm

    These stories need to come out, people need to see and understand what this organization is really about. – Brent

    Finally- Can you tell us the Raatz full story? I thought Christie was Amy Marks’ best friend? Pretty disturbing….
    In my opinion these stories really show what a cult Team is and how unfair they are. The only thing valued in this group is conformity to the PC and performance. Making them money. When you cannot perform or you disagree with them, they will screw you over, especially if you are a leader with influence! The higher up you get in the heirarchy the worse it gets, the more you see and the more you will conform or you will suffer!
    The Morgans’ story is a perfect example.

  9. Vogel permalink
    December 6, 2011 2:57 pm

    Cult is exactly right. The leaders offer rewards and punishment at they alone see fit, based on who is/is not subservient to their whims; It’s not really about hard work per se is it?.

  10. webelieved permalink
    December 6, 2011 3:08 pm

    Vogel you got it exactly right. Punishments and rewards once you are a leader and it is NOT about performance or work. It is about loyaltly. You can see that when profit sharers are given freebies or managers who sat on the couch for years are given accalades and rewards while leaders who did the work are ignored, dismissed and stolen from. They will destroy you if you do not do what they want whatever it is, even if you question its legality!
    Cults actually give you lots of favors and love up front but then later they control you by forcing you to conform more and more to get the favor. If you want your dream and you are brainwashed you give up more and more of yourself because you need their edification and favors like speaking etc. to grow your business. It is what gives you credibility and Orrin knows it. The culture is really sick!

  11. Finally permalink
    December 6, 2011 5:01 pm

    Webelieved, they were best friends from my understanding, so much so that the Mike and Christie were in their will as guardian of their children if something should happen to Tim and Amy. As I heard the story, Mike questioned why he was posting the same numbers month after month yet his check was not equal every month. He went so far as to call the team office and ask for the pay formula. Needless to say he was denied, so he decided to take some time off of the business just to get some perspective. He informed Tim of this and within a couple of day’s he received a two-line text informing him that his next check would be his last and that he was voted out of profit sharing……….They say Tim is superman and a real man’s man………….. NOT even close, I don’t know how they look their kids in the eyes……….. That is about as far from being a man as you can get.

    And yes these stories do need to get out so people can see the real side of who they are. They will spin and deny all of these stories but those involved and God knows the truth. It is a shame… What we know for certain is the God is in control and he knows why all of this is happening the way it is even if we do not.

    An interesting side note. Amy has battled bulimia as we have all heard on CD, I wonder if her symptoms are back due to all of the crap. I know they know what they are doing and the wives will never question their husbands and have to be struggling with all of the betrayal, not people betraying them but them betraying others. I hear another RT wife has had a migraine for about the last year, I wonder if some of it has to do with the contradictions they appear to be living. And the fact that they do not qualify as the ranks they are introduced at. That has to cause tremendous problems with their health.

    [Editor’s Note: Edited slightly for better clarity]

  12. Peachy permalink
    December 6, 2011 7:21 pm

    We will keep the Morgans in our prayers. Please keep us updated on Melanie’s prognosis.

  13. webelieved permalink
    December 6, 2011 7:27 pm

    Finally- That is a terrible story! I love the Raatz’s, please tell them we will be praying for them. Tim Marks, another Coward! A text message Tim, really? I guess maybe he needed a pay raise and a team he could count somewhere else, or he gave it to one of his favorites? Seen that too. Talk about gutless cowards, Orrin! That is 3 PC on the coward list and counting and your included……… It is really sad what lying, manipulating scum bags the PC are. They are acting like the maffia. Their wives should be ashamed of themselves too, for sitting back and not stopping this craziness, but I know stand by your man, right? Kudos to the Raatz for asking the hard questions. Who the hell doesn’t have the right to know how they are being paid! Interesting that no one knows how profit sharing works. Something isn’t right. They could’ve been skimming money out of the pot all along and who would know. We never knew the profits broght into the team or the expenses. We got no information, except the numbers we reported and a total of tools sold in our group. A leader here reported Orrin was fixing the profit sharing numbers on Wed. Morinings to favor some. I think they said he was going in before anyone came into the office. Unfortunately the post was removed because of some other sensitive information. Wouldn’t it be fun to pull out our monthly statements and compare our numbers and our pay? 🙂

    Maybe you could get the Raatz to come here and tell their story.

  14. webelieved permalink
    December 6, 2011 7:46 pm

    I was reading the thread again, did you see they had like 33 Platinums! WOW! Could you imagine having that big of teams? I would like a defender to come on and say the Morgans didn’t do the work.
    Crickets Chirping………………….
    Switch pass the popcorn…………..I have a feeling this is gonna get good! 🙂

  15. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 6, 2011 8:26 pm

    To echo the comments of a few posters before, I will be praying for them. It makes me mad that someone would do such horrible things as the TEAM is doing under the impression of Christianity.

  16. Finally permalink
    December 7, 2011 3:13 am

    There are only two people that know the team real numbers….Orrin and Rob Halstrand, that is it…..Not Chris, Tim, Claude George nor Bill Lewis have any idea of what the actual numbers are, IMO How’s that for transparency, and we all thought that Q was bad it is looking like O took his Q from Q LOL

  17. switch permalink
    December 7, 2011 6:20 am

    You got it, webelieved…..fresh batch comin’ up!!!!

  18. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 9:05 am

    Too bad the Morgan’s story couldn’t be spread to the thousands who saw them on stage for years.How we could get their story out? Maybe we should all start blogs with the Stories of leaders who were destroyed by involvement with Team and Orrin Woodward the master manipultator? Do you have any ideas? The Morgans story really bothers me and I want to make a difference for all those who are being decieved across the country! Any ideas?

  19. Former Round Table permalink
    December 7, 2011 9:17 am

    Finally has it totally correct–only Orrin and Rob Hallstrand know the total truth about the numbers and profit sharing. Wednesday morning Rob gives Orrin all numbers BEFORE anyone else sees them. Orrin decides who will get paid, how much, etc. Rob gets rewarded VERY well for his “loyalty” to Orrin and his willingness to backstab those who thought they were friends.

    This whole business is so disgustingly corrupt it makes me want to puke. I am so sad for the thousands of people who are being lied to and manipulated. They all think they are just a step away from making it big, and they refuse to believe that their entire livelihoods will be dependent on whether or not Orrin likes them on any given day. (Great man of character and integrity. Excuse me while I go throw up.)

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 9:27 am

    It is Amazing the damage these greedy leaders have done to the Morgan’s and so many people’s lives, all because as Brent says; they will scratch their way including selling out their integrity and souls to try and hang on to their ill-gotten gains…sell supposed friends out…slander, lie and deceive just to try and keep their blood money coming in.

    My heart and prayers go out to all of the Morgan’s and all the leaders that have had to experience; a brush with evil.

    Their actions show they have a scarce mentallity…they are desperate and will resort to any nasty ‘riffraff’ tatics to try and sustain their fake lifestyles and money circulating back to them.

    I hate to be them, when it comes full circle. They will reap what they have sown. That they can take to the bank!

  21. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 9:42 am

    Former Round Table- I am so glad to no longer be owned by Team! One definitly doesn’t want to get on the wrong side of Orrin. What a lowly man to have to abuse people with his power.
    I have heard what you are saying from someone else here as well, about Orrin fixing the numbers/profit sharing. Could you elaborate at all? I have to say, shame on Rob. I would hate for my integrity to be bought and owned by another man. I too know that
    Team profit sharing was not paid on performance or numbers. I know Round Tables who were paid less than their downline profit sharers just like the Morgans. We could probably prove this by sharing monthly profit sharing statements recieved from the team office. They have the numbers and spreads. I would bet the leaders screwed by Orrin that we know would give them up in a second! I would guess it could be proven just in this community but I also know people that are still with team that could be supeoned to prove it. Especially in the years 2007/08/09. What do you think?
    I wonder if there would be some type of legal grounds for a lawsuit, contract issues etc. I would guess they would get it for deceptive, fraudulant business practices.There are so many promises and promotions, and witnesses, all we need is the proof! I think we can get it, and then won’t it be a wonderful day when they have to crack open their books!

  22. No Team For Me permalink
    December 7, 2011 10:23 am

    Webelieved – I’d be willing to share my numbers

  23. switch permalink
    December 7, 2011 10:50 am

    OH!!!! Look at that!!!! POPCORN is READY!!!!!

  24. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 11:04 am

    Ok me too. I have to dig them out and see what I have, otherwise I can look at bank deposits and 1099s if need be. The monthly statements would be the best as they have the number. Let’s start with that. I will ask all the leaders I know and could you send the information to Amthrax? You can hide your real name and we will not publish anything. The dates and exact amounts would give up our identities to Orrin. He would only have to look up numbers on his data base. How about this, make a spreadsheet with
    Date, your numbers in your teams 1, 2, 3 ,4 system counts and tickets underneath. Total tool sales for the month, speaking fees, and total pay from your monthly pay stubs. Lets start with the year 2007 and 2008. All that info is needed to prove they were fixing the pay. Did they change the numbers or did they just change the pay. If they changed the pay and the numbers were legit what you reported then we can prove it this way.
    It will be anonymous and if we all do it in the same order, it will be easy to sort. Send it to Amthrax and we will do the same. Attatch your alias name and if we find something wrong which I bet we will, then we can proceed forward. We are doing exactly what Orrin is praying we won’t, sharing information! This is really exciting and I don’t know why we didn’t think of it sooner! I am also going to call all the leaders that left that I know and see if they will share their info too, can you do the same? Does anyone have the Morgans number? We should call them.
    It is going to be interesting to see how this game was played…….there is no way a Round Table should make 500 in a month when their teams and numbers hardly changed unless Orrin and Rob were fixing the pay scale! No more lies! 🙂
    The only other question I have is how can we protect ourselves from infiltration of Orrin and posers that may send in false numbers to get us to talk and give them our identities? I wish their was someone on the outside,not on this site, that we all trust and know are out. Someone that could vouch for each of us, that we could call on the phone, that wouldn’t give up our identities. Anyone have any idea?

    By the way Orrin I am giving you and your lies the middle finger right now! Lord forgive me!

  25. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 11:47 am

    No Team for Me- I will compare them with mine and my friends. You can trust me I promise. If anyone wants to participate and trusts me send the info to Amthrax. Amthrax can vouch for me and my trustworthiness.
    If you cannot trust me because I am currently anonymous, i understand, I sometimes have the same problem. Keep your name anonymous for now and send the info with an email contact for Amthrax so he can get in touch with you when we need to.
    If the readers know anyone that was a leader that has left the team tell them to gather the info on their pay and spread the word to others. I will try to get a contact point outside of this site, that I can name on this site with a phone number. If you find someone well known that is trusted that was previously in the Team community, doesn’t mind their name and number being on this site, and they are proven to be done with Orrin, let Amthrax know. We can decide through emails who it should be.
    In the meantime I will be getting in touch with leaders that I trust and know have left to participate with their information. I am guessing they will use their real names. Since all of the information will not be exclusively from people on this site, no one will know which ones are commenting on this site. This will protect the identities of the people who have been commenting. I don’t think it is a crime in Monavieland to share information LOL!
    If you guys have a better idea, then by all means let us know..

    Please if you are a downline or friend of a leader who left the Team let them know about this and check back here for contact information.
    The secrets have to stop. 🙂

  26. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 12:06 pm

    Switch! You Kill mE!! Someday we are going to have to get a beer!

    Just wanted to say a word of caution to everyone:
    Word is that Orrin has hired people to find out our identities on this site. Be careful!

  27. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 12:11 pm

    If we prove that he’s been doing this, I bet it won’t be hard to find an attorney and it will prove to his devoted followers what a crooked liar he is!
    I would guess the Morgans and the Raatz would LOVE to particiapate after all they have been through.

  28. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 7, 2011 12:58 pm


    Interesting, because Dooly told Michael that when he spoke with Orrin, Orrin already confirmed the identities on this blog. He supposedly knows who all of you are. Knowing, and proving of course are two different things.

  29. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:04 pm

    The only other thing that would expose this lie further is our tax returns with all our incomes and expenses. I know our expenses would blow people’s minds. It is ridiculous how much money we put back into this scam and how long it took to get to making any profit when we were killing ourselves year after year! How many miles we put on the car in a year, expenses, gas, tools etc. I will have to think about that..
    I would guess they are still promoting the team tools and running the team tool profit sharing scheme on all the how to build your business cds. I would also guess it is not being promoted from stage as an income op and not included in the LIFE pot? does anyone know about that?

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:18 pm


    And what is his point with telling Dooly that>….Did it change the TRUTH..NO, what it did was confirm that he screwed the leaders over and knows it…good luck proven it. It is too bad that is all Dooly cared about…like that changes any corruption. And if Orrin knows this then why doesn’t he address the he is too scared.

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:20 pm

    There are thousands who left….wonder who is on here…LOL

  32. December 7, 2011 1:22 pm

    All – Is there a certain timeframe we should restrict our search to? To make things easy to compare with everyone else?

  33. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:22 pm

    Brent- Wheres Doolys report of the b.s. Orrin told him about his leaders? I wonder what kinds of lies he said?
    Of course Orrin will tell Dooly whatever he wants him to believe. Another part of his manipulation tactics, I am sure along with some name dropping of some leaders that left, there was also some slander and lies told about them?
    Not too hard to know who left since there is a list on this blog of some of them and of course he knows who the leaders are that he screwed over! But how does he know the ones listed are the ones writing? It could be an outside friend, another leader, a downline to a leader, or a family member! Good luck to you Orrin, you gutless wonder! LOL! 🙂

  34. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:31 pm

    I would guess some need to get things together and others do not read this everyday. I don’t want some not sending info in because of a time restriction. I think we should try to start Jan 1st but we should accept information at any time . Some will read this in the future and I do not want them to not come forward because of a restriction. What do you think?
    If someone sends it in I will start sooner.

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:31 pm

    Webelieved~ LOL….Switch pass the popcorn… 🙂

  36. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:35 pm

    Yeah…I found it comical as well. OW was probably fishing for information so he indicated that he knew who was on this blog trying to keep some posture with Dooly.

    Michael actually had a very intersting 2 hr phone call with Dooly, you can hit him up for any juicy details as its not my position to share more than I already have. I don’t need the bulldog upset with me now do I? hahaha….gotta love Mike, he is definitely a bulldog!

  37. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:37 pm

    Now, I wish I could contribute to this little research project, but Team West had things so jacked up out here in Utah, that who even has a clue of how it was even supposed to operate?

    I believe there were several different pay scales being used, and I have a whole big story to tell about Team West operations. Crazy stuff!

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:44 pm


    Do share with us here. Since Dooly, didn’t do squat nor did he say anything in his ‘investigation’… I mean nothing other than made some judgement on people, that didn’t solve a damn thing. But hey maybe Orrin aswered the questions and admitted to the corruption to Dooly and he swore to secrecy…just wanted to take it to his grave since it appeared to be top secret on what he found out. He did not hold to his end of the deal on promising to get to the bottom of this. He didn’t get to the bottom of nothing.

  39. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 1:53 pm

    Yeah Mike do tell!
    Brent I want to hear your story.
    Do you have monthly statements from Team ? We want to see them if you do.

    I would say we should look from Jan 2007 through 2009. From Quixtar growth, through lawsuits and into when people started leaving after they were in they began leaving Monavie. It also goes through when they started the director contract b.s.

  40. Finally permalink
    December 7, 2011 2:00 pm

    Orrin wanting to know who is on here…….Why would he?? If we are all liars and such they would just let it go on not worrying………..If what we say is true, and it is, then there is definitely something to worry about.

    When I have more time I will share what I know about a Liberator going diamond, you wont believe your eyes…….It comes from former teammates that have the credit card debt to prove it. Of course the couple and their up line PC would deny it but the proof is there. I have talked with more than one of the persons that ran up their credit card bills and were in on the organizing of where to send the bulk order juice so that the up line could qualify Diamond…….what a stinking joke……….didn’t even buy their own way, they asked other’s to go in debt for them….It is sad. I wonder why they don’t tell you these stories from stage…..

  41. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 2:06 pm

    Finally if you have any team pay stub info send it to Amthrax. Thanks

  42. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 2:07 pm

    Finally- Cannot wait to hear it. Maybe you can write a post for amthrax.

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 2:39 pm


    I agree O I am sure has Amthrax site fed to his phone when any post goes up…lol.. and when Dooly was on here asking questions O was hoping someone sent in info with their names and that Dooly would rat them out. I am curious WHY he even cares…What is his intentions even if he knew? Lawsuit..Hmm..? Or would he go on massive smear campaign of those leaders and that is why he wants to know? I agree with webelieved he probably had to tell a bunch of LIES about the leaders….that is what he is best at!

    Because We ALL know he knows the Leaders he screwed over and so does HE!

  44. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 7, 2011 2:46 pm


    I am sure it will be telling but I am not sure I will be surprised… these crooks have done so much that we have seen we are numb to the shock factor but am looking forward to more truth coming out! 🙂

    Brent do share…perhaps you can give a senerio with numbers that would give us an idea of how much people were making at the different pay scales, (based on what?) the biggest problem is O could change anything at his own discretion at anytime and NO ONE would know it! So that is why I think if people would send in even a few majors like say the summer of 07 and 08 and the pay off the seminars for comparrison would be very telling.

  45. das permalink
    December 7, 2011 5:09 pm

    These latest stories about the Morgans and Raatz make me sick. How can Lori stand next to her hero with a smile on her face knowing the crap he has done to other leaders for greed and saving his precious illusion of making a difference. I agree with Finally, “That has to cause tremendous problems with their health”.

    I don’t know about Lori, but I am ashamed. Ashamed of every phone call and contact I ever made promoting Orrin Woodward and the Team. It saddens me that so many people are still deceived and put Orrin up on some kind of pedestal.

    [Editor’s Note: I believe Lori = Laurie Woodward]

  46. Finally permalink
    December 7, 2011 6:18 pm

    Okay here is how a former plumber goes diamond, and I am adding that this is first hand info from multiple sources that contributed to the pin. I have been told this stuff first hand and I consider all involved friends. Apparently when we switched to monavie everyone thought the people were going to jump in, there was a false sense of accomplishment as we all transferred our teams into MV. I saw this couple go diamond and figured it was because they had a strong business. After I was out I got the full story.

    First you need to go to your down line that was responsible for 99% of the growth in your lesser leg, you cry at their kitchen table begging them to help you go diamond…yes I said cry. Because your down line is loyal and would do anything for you they agree to help. So for the next 3 weeks you go through your pet’s and figure out what peoples weaknesses are so you can promote to them to buy as much juice as you need them to buy. Then you call those people up, and promote to them that they will get personal time with their up line that was a former triple 100, but to get his time you have to be a bronze at least because after all he can not spend time with everyone. The people I have talked to put anywhere from 2,000.00 to 10,000. on their credit cards in buying juice and shipping it all over the county to get the volume needed each of 3 weeks to get their up line to diamond. People bought into it and went into debt. The sad part is the couple was paraded on stage as a diamond, went to hawaii and continued to get introduced as Diamonds even though they only hit the volume for 3 weeks and only ever hit gold after that. It would totally be different if they used their own money to do it but they manipulated other’s into debt for their personal recognition…….and to hear their up line pc tell how awesome they were at the business when they bought, correction others bought their way there is the worst kind of character. Another sad note is a couple or the people that were guaranteed their up lines time never got it because after the fact he didn’t have the time to help them sell all the juice. Many quit after that and more than a few relationships were permanently damaged form the con job to get them to buy juice. It would have been cheaper for their team to buy them tickets and a hotel for hawaii……………..

    Also in my conversations with ex teammates I also found out that a certain former triple 50 was gifted his triple 50. I won’t give his name but he was formerly of team TNT and did a mentoring cd with a pc, Tim Marks. Now I was at the seminar when that couple got recognized as a triple 50. Looking back now it is comical and sad what a lack of character and integrity that was displayed as they not only accepted the recognition but blabbered and cried that they finally did it……………Not so surprising…. he is no longer a triple 50, in fact the only team he has is team through another personal that backed off the business and what he was given. he is also back to work for the 3rd time I hear and when someone from team runs into him on his job his line is that he is only “helping these guy’s out”, someone called the company and he is in fact a full time employee. Take that for what you all will but it is sad that someone would take recognition that they didn’t earn and then use that false edification to make yourself look better than you are. How can you trust any of it?? Isn’t Orrin the one that said no one gets anything given to them on team? Didn’t Brady say it is 100% performance based? No special deals, no kissing the bosses behind to get ahead, you post numbers and get paid………Well I would suggest the Team office put together all of the numbers of all of the equal ranks and show us that we are all wrong and disparaging them. I mean Orrin did say numbers don’t lie, correct?? He posts numbers just like everyone else and get’s paid according to a formula. remember he doesn’t take his money off of the top and give the rest to profit sharing……….CD’s are a bitch aren’t they!! They memorialize everything, and these guy’s made sure to get us to listen to a bunch of them LOL Isn’t character something that you always have? It is not situational is it? Or is it?

    Come to your own conclusions and if what I heard is wrong then they can prove us wrong, or we can have copies of the credit card statements of those involved and the checks of those involved, the emails,(yes, many have kept them) the voice mails and text messages. No one would be on here if we didn’t get burned or slandered. I got slandered. I was a willing participant in team and it was my decision and my responsibility. Now I am sharing what I know and the conversations I have had with many ex team. The stories on here are all similar and come from people that do not know each other nor were on the same teams and yet all have the same stories……………Orrin can look into who is on here all he wants but if they were the men they say they are and ran the business the way they claim they do then none of these stories would exist. I mean we can’t all come up with the same lie’s can we??

  47. webelieved permalink
    December 7, 2011 7:59 pm

    Finally- That just makes me even more sick! Thanks for sharing. I agree we cannot make up this many lies, nor would we have any reason to. What a shame. They should all be ashamed of themselves for misleading so many people. Unreal!

  48. das permalink
    December 7, 2011 8:00 pm

    Editor’s note is correct…almost. Lori = Laurie Woodard lmao

  49. das permalink
    December 7, 2011 8:04 pm

    Thanks for sharing that Finally. I bet the crying plumber wishes he still had that hot tub he gave up…not that he has any time to enjoy it. 🙂 POSERS!!! FAKERS!!!

  50. switch permalink
    December 8, 2011 7:51 am

    “Someday we are going to have to get a beer!”- webelieved

    Nothing like making new friendships through truth, honesty, and trust is there, webelieved…?

    The swings that you, Speak and everyone else in between here are like no other…..and when we do sit down for that beer, that beer will be on me. It’s the least I can do.

    Keep swingin, my friend.

  51. Robin permalink
    December 8, 2011 8:46 am

    Wow! We were on a small level burned. My heart and prayers sure go out to the Morgan’s.

    To Finally: That is truly disgusting, but I believe every word. And to think at one time they were one of my favorite couples. Excuse me I just puked in my mouth.

    That is what really woke me up. C.D.’s are a bitch. I listened to so many I will never be able to erase them. All that garbage about what you would sell your integrity for. When that happened to us I realized Orrin sells his integrity every day for what ever price suits him. I just wonder how they can all lay their head on a pillow at night and actually sleep!!! Amazing!!!!!!!

    We could have kept all our teams intact and lost nothing if we followed them into screwing our upline. Because we would not they stoled our entire business also. I have no regrets and have never been more thankful that all that happened or I may have still been brainwashed. I know I did the right thing and would do it over again every time. I can lay my head on the pillow and know that I knowingly never screwed anyone. The sad thing is I unknowingly screwed alot of people that I pray will forgive me for my ignorance.

    I have never been more freer and had more time in these last three years than I did the last seven in that cult called TEAM!

  52. Finally permalink
    December 8, 2011 9:56 am

    It is sad but it is the truth. I know why they do it, for credibility but you cannot excuse lies for profit and gain..I always believed that team wanted to face the brutal reality of their business, isn’t that what O always said??? He also slammed people to look at the brutal reality and confront them no matter how ugly…………On that note he should be thanking all of us for sharing the brutal truth. I know of more than few couple that tried to share some of these truths with their up lines and PC members. They got nowhere, always told to die to self or we will work on those things. This forum allows for the truth without the up line spin and I know they don’t like it. I do not have anything personal against any of them. I do however have problems with their lack of ethics and the lies to manipulate and control.

    I especially like the story of the Jarvinens and how they got their triple 50. Never seen a more fake display of humility on stage and what a crock eh? I think they do seminars. Now how in the heck do you do that when you know in your heart you did not do the work to get the recognition. I mean it is the same as going into a own shop, buying a super bowl ring and then going around telling everyone how you got your ring…………Oh and that is another point. How about the guys that went PC during the break between Q and MV??
    Darkangelos obviously bought their way there. They go pc in 2008 and file bankruptcy in 2009. Any one wanna bet that a majority of that 250k in CC debt went to team systems??? Birtles go PC as well, never to come close again. We also know the Martins went pc in that time frame. All of them talk about character and integrity and Tim Marks, Orrin and Brady have vouched for each of their own down lines………….Either they are ignorant or part of the cover up……..what a joke…….I hope they read this and do some introspection, even if they don’t agree with us or think that we are bitter quitters.


  53. Robin permalink
    December 8, 2011 10:33 am

    I know for a fact that Orrin and Tim are not ignorant to what is going on. At least in our situation. They ok’d it and we were promised a phone call from Tim Marks. Of course we didn’t get a phone call. Instead he sent the uplines that were responsible for orchestrating everything to have a meeting with us. Like that resolved anything. Like they say from c.d.’s “doesn’t matter doesn’t matter”!!! What comes around goes around. I believe whole-heatedly that TEAM will come crashing down and soon. You cannot hurt this many people and not be held accountable. Remember PC leaders you can lie to people but you cannot lie to God!

    All of the cd crap they preached on stage will come back to haunt them one by one. With this site and people speaking out the truth can no longer be hidden or talked away. Thank you Amthrax for this site. It helped me and I have been gone 3 years.

  54. webelieved permalink
    December 8, 2011 11:25 pm

    Switch I look forward to the day! We should have an ex-team reunion! Only jeans are allowed! 🙂 If you are a man you need to have a five oclock shadow and a tshirt and tennis shoes and if someone is a woman they get to wear jeans and flip flops! Maybe we should go to Hawaii or Florida. No meetings allowed only fun. We could even have a party and listen to music. LOL!

    Finally and Robin thanks for your posts. You guys are giving a lot of info and have great insight. Some of this stuff is really disturbing but I really think the more truth that is told the better this site will help others cut through the crap.

  55. webelieved permalink
    December 9, 2011 4:41 am

    Instead he sent the uplines that were responsible for orchestrating everything to have a meeting with us. Like that resolved anything.

    I find your comment familiar. How ridiculous! They pretend to give a dam and behind the scenes the PC and his minions destroy the ability to build your business with their wisper campaign. All the managers ran amuck and blew out the leaders! Pretty dumb! In my opnion the lack of results in Team these past few years, show the real leaders left ! LOL!
    You know Orrin doesn’t even read his emails. They go through the Team office, then there directed to the PC who take it downline to take care of the problem. What a joke they are. 🙂

  56. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    December 9, 2011 1:44 pm

    Webelieved & Switch

    I think the ex-team reunion idea is great. I have grown a moustache, and a goatee. On Tuesday evening while on this reunion we should all go to an 8:00 pm movie or just all sit in front of the blue hue. If we do the reunion in the winter we can all bring our piles and piles of books and use them as kindling. We can start that portion of the reunion on Saturday at 5:00pm sharp. Of course the best part would get with all of you on this blog, and continue to get the truth about Team. I appreciate the words from all of you and your continued posts.

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 9, 2011 2:06 pm

    Steve (Peach)~

    That is hilarious!! There have been many great ideas brought up about this and had I not already junked the cds we could have got real creative there too…ha! We still have plenty of LLR books that we could contribute to the kindling…lol.

    We all need to meet in a tropical place so we could order up some pineapple boats and walk the beaches (of the world) together…hahaha! I agree the reunion will be the best…we will call it…’The Deprogramed..Ex-illusionist..True Friends Reunion’ and we can have one yearly.. as our numbers ‘explode’…We will get to a million people faster!!!! 🙂

  58. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    December 9, 2011 2:16 pm

    Steve, don’t forget about a group CD…err…skeet shooting contest. We could do it similarily to a 3 point shooting contest in the NBA All-Star game with the striped balls that are worth more points. Each competitor must come armed with their “favorite” CD’s for demolition. Every five tosses we throw up either a Top 50 CD or a special PC CD. Rather than calling it the “money ball”, we will call it the “scam toss”. 1 pt for a regular CD, 3 pts the scam toss. The double or nothing bet will be made by tossing your favorite MonaVie elixir, which must be full for maximum potential splash.

  59. switch permalink
    December 9, 2011 2:25 pm

    LOL, hey….COUNT ME IN!!!

    I can just see it now….campfire stories/songs around the fire. Roast marshmallows that are dipped in mona vie-active, hoping for a cure-all and maybe a fake tear every once and awhile. I think that would be the ticket, gang.

    I’ll bring my banjo and play some of my favorite tunes. 🙂

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 9, 2011 3:05 pm

    UTBAL & Switch~

    Your killing me…lol. The “scam toss”…I LOVE IT! I can’t wait for the banjo…haha!!!!

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 9, 2011 3:06 pm

    What will be the THEME?

  62. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    December 9, 2011 3:32 pm

    Speaking of the CD’s. I remember when we had to move out of our house and going through all of the tapes and CD’s. I tossed what I thought at the time all of them. From time to time I go looking around our rental house (i’m not bitter), lol for something and wouldn’t you know it, I come across a CD, or a bundle of them wrapped in a rubber band. They kind of remind me of cockroaches, Once they are in your house you are never really sure you get rid of them. You might not see them for awhile, but then all of a sudden there they are tucked away in a dark corner somewhere, lurking, waiting to get under your skin. I think the theme should be FREEDOM oh wait that is already taken. Oh what the heck we will show them what real FREEDOM is.

  63. Hershall Sweet permalink
    December 9, 2011 5:24 pm

    Holy Moley! I’m not surprised by the stories. What’s disturbing is that there are so many that are still waiting to be told. What’s disturbing is that there are people still in the middle of it that are either denying it or feel powerless to stop it or are trapped financially. They feel trapped by the promises they’ve made to upline and downline and their family and themselves. They feel like the brass ring is going to be theirs the next time the ride comes around. That’s what they’ve been told. Some of them have held it before and feel it belongs to them if only…
    I hope that those of you guys that have hung on to your records can get them in order and remain free from persecution until the schemes are exposed. The Team business was always missing the details of an agreement. Orrin got Chris. Chris did a lot of work and got some stars in Huber, Lewis and Marks. Lewis did a bunch of work and seemed to really build the way it was taught. He has Spiewalk, Radossa, Morgan, Birtles and more. There is a lot to be admired about the relationships among those leaders. They’re different from the ones on the Marks’ group of Woodward or Guzzardo group. Marks worked like mad and was desperate enough to get the direction from Woodward. Orrin did a lot of work and built a reputation. His leaders were smitten by the vision he cast of making a difference. He had relationships with Guzzardo, Abraham, Freeze, Dickie…. but not the same kinds of relationships. Orrin had the reputation and the connection to his former mentors and Team approach. He gets the glory and the blame.
    In a relationship business you’ve got to be who you say you are. You’ve got to practice what you preach. You’ve got to be transparent and forthcoming. You guys here have fostered close relationships and I hope you do manage to get together and share your stories and our sense of relief and banana boats or beer in t-shirts or tuxedos. I hope this community can force that community to light up their dark corners. I salute you all for each of your little bits of light and Amthrax for the forum.

  64. Vogel permalink
    December 9, 2011 5:41 pm

    Yep, you’re spot on Hershall. We’re just looking at the tip of the iceberg here. Can you imagine how many horror stories have yet to be told? That’s why I’m always beating the class action drum.

  65. Finally permalink
    December 9, 2011 7:37 pm

    Vogel, it is funny you should mention the class action drum ………I have heard many more team stories lately and the one that I think is going to be most damaging to the team leaders is the nature of the mentor, mentee relationship. I have heard from more than a few people that were coaxed into selling out IRA accounts or other investments and put that money into team tools. Now there are a couple of problems with this, The most damaging to the mentor is that he now took advantage of an established relationship and gave professional financial advice for personal gain. I am no lawyer but I am pretty sure they are legally responsible for the advice given under those conditions. It is well documented, again cd’s are a bitch, for them in this case, that all of team was encouraged to submit to a mentor. It is on a bunch of CD’s, and Tim has said many times that he does not need his financial advisor, he has orrin and chris. I know a personal friend that is a professional license personal financial advisor and she was sued for giving what a client thought was harmful advice for her gain. I do believe many of the team leaders are legally liable for the advice they have given having absolutely zero credentials in doing so, I know it was recommended to me from a “mentor”. I am looking into it and I am sure others would be interested in suing the team leaders for misguided and illegal advice. I know orrin brags about how they made it through the q lawsuit, which is a joke,…………HE FILED THE STUPID LAWSUIT TO BEGIN WITH……..Had his ego not gotten in the way he would have won if he just stuck to the legality of the contract q had everyone electronically sign………….

    Anyway, I have made a multitude of cross line friends..LOL and have heard many many horror stories from different teams. There are many more to come and more that need to be told on here. Again, they slam anonymous bloggers yet they mastered it before any of us………..And the thing about this is that they do not try to even take on any of the points that are made on here………..I wonder why that is……………They talk in general terms without taking on anything specific, why???because they know it is the truth. The Martins did have people go into debt for them to hit diamond, the credit card bills exist. The Darkangelos, Cullen’s and Huber’s did file bankruptcy, the Morgans did have their Team’s stolen, the Ron Dey rule was envoked at the team office, the whole team is making less now than they were with Q, and I mean everyone, Orrin included, their numbers have not gone up in 5 years, they do not build a B type business, all of the PC is self employed, they have lied many, many times. They have been recorded saying things they claim they do not say…………the list goes on and on. This site is only getting started. They have hurt too many and are too proud and arrogant to even consider that the folks on here are not bitter losers or quitters. In fact they are the biggest quitters I have ever met. Brady quit engineering after they paid for him to go to Carnegie Mellon……….that is actually stealing I think………..Claude quit defending his country………………Orrin quit on a whole bunch of people……..He quit and raided Q of thousands of IBO’s the very thing he accused many of ex team of doing………..there day is coming………The IRS, the possibility of lawsuits based on illegal financial and marital advice and the pesky little fact that they are not growing in net numbers………….whew!!!! I need to go to bed……..

  66. Robin permalink
    December 9, 2011 9:44 pm

    I would love an “ex-team” reunion. What a blast.

    Also I would love to know if there would be a class action suit. Not only did Orrin mention it several times on a c.d. how he cashed in his 401K blah blah, but we were told by a round table to do so with ours. I sure would like just that money back. What is funny is we were already debt free including our house and dumb enough to take advice from people who were not but said they were. We went backwards financially while in Team not forward as I am sure everyone else does!

    You know how it is. At a seminar or major they really push top 50’s. Anyone with a trunk has several. Then they wait about a week and change the top 50’s just so you have to turn around and buy the new ones. Happened to us twice before I caught on to that one and said tuff siiit we arn’t buying anymore.

    Cleaned the basement out last Saturday and threw about 3 top 50’s and hundreds of cassettes and c.d.s and any book that was authored by any Team member. Good bye and good riddens. Hubby even suggested maybe putting them on ebay. Told him no way will I profit off someone else’s misery. Even if they do not recognize their misery now they will later and they won’t be buying any cult stuff from me. To the trash man it went.

    Do think its funny like Steve (Peachy) said, they are like cockroaches, under your bed, in your basement, in your car, shoved in a drawer and the list goes on and on.

  67. Vogel permalink
    December 9, 2011 10:04 pm

    Robin: “Hubby even suggested maybe putting them on ebay. Told him no way will I profit off someone else’s misery.”

    Now THAT is what I like to hear — a truly compassionate and commendable thing to do. That is what true leadership is all about. When you set an example like that, it makes the slick, greedy hustlers on the TEAM stage look all the more ridiculous and morally bereft.

  68. webelieved permalink
    December 10, 2011 2:08 am

    Robin-We also decided not to sell our cds, we DID however save a BIG tub of evidence… just in case! 🙂 All kinds of evidence showing Team and Orrin implying or promising residual income, lifestyle claims etc. …… after cd. Dvd’s……one was Chris Brady showing the plan, Dot One Step, How To Show The Plan does anyone remember those? I wish I could gut watching them so I could collect some evidence!
    Finally- We used all of our retirement to keep building the business on that advice and promises. We were trusting enough to count on their character, promises and the “residual income” we were making from “our business.” What a joke!
    It is so embarassing how much we trust we placed in them! 😦

  69. webelieved permalink
    December 10, 2011 2:18 am

    I just wonder if it is illegal to make lifestyle claims with nothing written down to back them up? Now I realize most if not all of the income claims we heard for years were based tool sales, not Amway or MV income. It definitly is twisted!
    I find it funny they recently put in the LIef contract that distributors cannot show their tax returns to anyone! Wonder what they are trying to hide?

  70. webelieved permalink
    December 10, 2011 2:23 am

    Robin- Isn’t it ridiculous when you recognize, outside of the group, their crap isn’t worth a dime! I donated all of my books to a library because it made me sick to even look at them.

  71. Robin permalink
    December 10, 2011 7:17 am

    Vogel: Thanks!

    Webelieved: I saved all of the emails and logs I kept for evidence “just in case” it came in handy. Emails going all the way up toTim Marks.

  72. No Team For Me permalink
    December 10, 2011 8:09 am

    Finally, – I agree. I believe they could get into a lot of trouble for giving financial, marital & spiritual advice without a license. And now that they are so bold as to be claiming to be LIFE coaches in the 8-F’s. I would think there would be some attorney general’s around the country that would be interested in this.

  73. Finally permalink
    December 10, 2011 9:15 am

    Yes, No Team, they treaded on dangerous ground…especially by taking away incomes of individuals such as the Morgan’s. That kind of evil makes people want to take them down…….the funny part is they are the ones that think they have been doing everything right all along. We will see, like I said there are a lot of former team looking into what can be done about what they have done….evidence is no problem, they recorded it all for us……Tim Marks sent a text to Raats. Can he now say he didn’t? I know they forced profit sharers to sign an agreement without giving them the chance to read it or have it read and on that alone, we now know, they could be held legally responsible for finances lost due to their actions. Let’s remember Q lost a 25 MILLION dollar lawsuit based on their illegal contracts………wouldn’t that be ironic………Let alone the personal damage done to marriages and relationships. If they come under legal scrutiny from their internal actions I think they will have a big problem. And there is still the story of Casey Combden showing O and Chris how to hide money from systems……

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 10, 2011 9:22 am


    I found some of your comments, and perspective very interesting, to say the least. You appear to seperate the Lewis, Speiwalk, Radossa, Morgan, and Birtles and state they are admirable in their relationship and by your other comments you express that they have a different relationship than all the other leaders to Orrin. It also seems as if they are the only ones you believe built it the right way?

    Can you explain what you mean? What in your opinion, seperates them, how they ‘built it right’ and what would make them admirable? What did you mean by; the Lewis team does not have the same kind of relationship; as you mention; than all the other PC and Dickies to Orrin? Bill Lewis and those on his team you mention, are still building the Team, correct?

    You mention Orrin gets the glory and the blame. That is also expected when Orrin is at the “TOP” of the helm claiming he is thee Leader and does/did make all the final decisions that is beyond everyone else’s control. If Orrin had an honest bone in his body, and in my opinion didn’t ‘need’ all the glory, and it is clear when He berates other leaders when he wasn’t getting all the edification or they are edifing others more than him; in his mind.If he would admit and be honest, rather than take the credit. He is also edified as being humble, and tries to play that game but one would be blind not to see how he self-promotes himself continually, it always comes back around to him. He is not the one who came up with ‘team approach’, only the slick little names that describe the process. He also didn’t come up with each one reach one, and all the other techniques he claims his fame in the ‘industry’ on.

    One last statement you made that is just curious is; “I hope that those of you guys that have hung on to your records can get them in order and remain free from persecution until the schemes are exposed.” Could you explain what you meant. I don’t want to read into this too much, just interested in your perspective on why you said it.

  75. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 10, 2011 9:38 am


    I agree they have made all the decisions for others business and what they have done. The Cd’s are the best evidence (along with personal evidience as you state) as they are stating all their promises of ‘residual passive income’, how to ‘sell’ the business deceptively for years on hundreds of cds. Obviously, NO ONE would have built or put one minute into building a business that would not honor what was promised. And with the stories and this website of testimonies it is mind boggling how people continue. And now in insight and being more educated on the comp plan, it is even more clear, and deeply saddens me, that it is fixed for the majority to lose; how ignorant we were. I know people with a conscience would not lie to people if they had known, what they know now and give them false hope to watch them be destroyed financially, relationally and spiritually.

  76. John permalink
    December 10, 2011 9:52 am

    Lewis, Speiwalk, Radossa, Morgan, and Birtles are all guilty just as much as Orrrin, Chris, Tim and anyone else. They all know what they are doing. I am convinced that these people know the only way they can get the new person in their business is to lie about the dream, the residual income, the opportunity, the percentage of those that make it, and lie about the success of those who are already in. The entire business is built on lies. They lie so much they don’t even consider their lies to be lies. The self-deception is every where in this group. People on this site have commented on Team being a cult. It has all the signs and tendencies of a cult. It functions like a cult. The lying is a part of it. But the leaders of the Team would deny that they are lying at all. I wonder how they can sleep at night. If these people have any conscience at all you would think that they would have many troubled nights. But it does not appear from their actions that this is the case.

  77. rickdg permalink
    December 10, 2011 10:48 am

    That’s it in a nutshell, a big lie!
    Another concept that they rely on is, when someone leaves TEAM, they will be too ashamed do anything about the treatment that they endured while being a member of TEAM. There are a number of examples on this site, but one that stands out to me is that they have to live with the fact that they recommended TEAM to others.

  78. Peachy permalink
    December 10, 2011 11:27 am

    Another thing they count on is that no one individual will be able to afford to come after them in a lawsuit. That it would take a herculean effort on all of those effected to join in a class action suit. Even then you would have many ex teamers not willing to, or feel they don’t have enough evidence to go after them. They really don’t think we have the kahones to follow through.

  79. humiliated permalink
    December 10, 2011 1:21 pm

    Incredible. This is all coming together and I hate to use these words because for me Monavie has sullied a certain catch phrase for me forever more, so I will use synonyms and you will get what I mean…you all are generating significant heat which is causing a substantial flame!! GO EX-TEAM GO!

    I must say, I think Brent wrote that Orrin let Troy know that he “knew who everyone on this site is” and someone else said that he was hiring people to look into who we are. Wow, I am so scawwwrd….First off, he would never tell Troy that if he had actually received that information through ill gotten means, because that would put him at risk for criminal charges. He told Troy that knowing that his little bitch Troy would “share” this tidbit in an effort to squelch the sharing of information here. It is amateur psychology and manipulation.

    Finally, my heart truly goes out to the Morgans and I fervantly hope that Melanie continues to fight and beat this illness. For this story alone Orrin WILL burn in hell, of this I am certain.

    The events and knowledge expressed in this post are based on what I and others have witnessed or experienced while reading Amthrax’s blog.

  80. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 10, 2011 3:04 pm

    This blog is turning into a bonfire! Go- ex- TEAM!

  81. webelieved permalink
    December 10, 2011 3:51 pm

    Robin-We could have kept all our teams intact and lost nothing if we followed them into screwing our upline. Because we would not they stoled our entire business also

    Robin I was wondering how they wanted you to screw your upline?
    I am assuming it has something to do with registering into MV?

  82. webelieved permalink
    December 10, 2011 4:31 pm

    Hershall- You said there are many more stories to be told. Can you tell the ones you know about?
    I believe the secretive and nicey nice culture of the Team allows abuse to occur and be hidden. The truth needs to come out and yet most of us I would assume are afraid to tell the whole truth because of lawsuits and attack by Orrin and Co.
    If a family member or friend wants to tell my story there is really nothing Orrin or I can do. He surely would look like a fool suing my family and I surely cannot cotrol what other people chose to do. That would be like herding cats. 🙂

  83. webelieved permalink
    December 10, 2011 4:53 pm

    Michael Langone states that: “Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership’s demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders.”[51] A similar definition is given by Louis Jolyon West:
    “A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.”

  84. Finally permalink
    December 10, 2011 6:23 pm

    Speak, once the truth is revealed to us we are obligated to tell it. The same way o and company claim they are telling the truth. They are not. The minute they say residual income or B type business the way they teach it, they are lying. None of them had B type income they way they claim, their income goes up and down. And contrary to what they say about being able to walk away and still keep the income………well we all know they can’t. In fact Orrin would not let them, as he has already proven.

    I hope and pray for justice for these people. I watched our up line lie and lie again about how the business works and how he can help people build. Every single meeting they do is built on a theory that none of them have been able to prove………..I am ashamed that I fell for it for so long and now having been out for awhile I don’t know how I did it……..

    I pray for justice, and for all those hurt. Especially the Morgan’s. They deserve jail time for that one…..and who knows maybe they will get it………..

    Keep up the dream………..the dream of telling the truth about what we experienced and each one reaching one to get out 🙂

  85. Robin permalink
    December 10, 2011 10:17 pm

    We believed: They screwed our upline this way:

    There was one couple between me and the upline they screwed. We all entered MonaVie the same way we left Q. However in MonaVie personal sponsors mattered. The whiner, thumbsucker above us only sponsored one person in our entire tap root. Which means he doesn’t get all the bonuses, and money like he would if he had personally sponsored people. MonaVie doesnt work like Q does in that aspect of personally sponsoring people. He started whining to the Paul’s. Being the upright and respectable people the Paul’s are, of course because they have never done this before, started scheming and plotting to figure out how they could benefit also. (catch the sarcasm) Now this is happening when all the law suits are going on and Q wants to find evidence that the teams went into MonaVie exactly like they left Q. So the whiner and the P’s come up with a plan. Whiner threatens to go to Q if they do not change his sponsor (which is my upline they screwed so I’ll call them upline #2). Alot happens with the structure of #2’s team I can’t go into.

    Anyways to make a long story kinda short, after whiner cries going to Q it makes pc nervous. I know this for a fact they were nervous because one of the PC told me of the threat. So between whiner and P’s they come up with a plan to have a conference call with our taproot and our second team all at once. This was planned for months and orchestrated for their outcome behind our backs. All of a sudden the P’s are so concerned and sooo want to help the leaders in our second team. Now mind you they live 3 hours one way from us. For years we drove down there weekend after weekend to help them build their business. Whenever we asked anybody upline to help them they all cried “That’s your second team you are responsible for that”. They didn’t have the time of day for them. Whiner went down a couple of times. #2 went down alot to help. No one else would especially the P’s. We arn’t stupid and we knew something was up because all of a sudden the whiner and the P’s care about them and are loving all over them. Constantly calling them. Promising them personal time with the P’s. Blah blah blah.

    So now when all things are orchestrated in the dark and they chummed up to the top of our second team and promised them the moon, the phone call takes place. The call consisted of how great it would be to all move over into another team of P’s. Because we were already suspicious of their behavior the content of the call did not shock us. After the “blow smoke up everyone’s ***” took place, we immediately called every single person on our team and told them briefly what was really taking place. We called a meeting on both sides of our team’s. At the meetings we gave example after example of what the whiner and the P’s were really doing. 1) They were constantly stealing our people already in MV for months and changing their sponsor from us to the whiner. We had proof on paper of this. This was done directly by the P’s. It would take us forever to get them back and we would never get back the money we lost out on. 2) Most importantly, how unconcionable it was to take someone’s entire business from them over night. (Our upline #2’s entire business pretty much.) Now our upline #2 had a HUGE taproot. We were their second team. We just laid out the truth one after another.

    Here is the hysterical part. When we told the truth. The whiner’s spread all kinds of garbage about us into our teams. They were the most nastiest, despicable human beings I have ever seen. We told our team’s the truth. Never bashed the whiners or the P’s. We stuck strictly to the FACTS. And we also told our team we would be ok with whatever decision they made.

    Now this is a doozer. The top of our second team. Well the majority of their team stayed with us. They saw how wrong it was. They saw us down there helping them time after time for years. And the top of the second team could not believe we were “stealing” their team. Am I the only one that thinks that is just incredible? Hello McFly isn’t that what is happening to us and your ok with it because the P’s are kissing your ***? No way should the whiner or the P’s have ever been involved in moving our second team. This decision was ok’d from Orrin to Tim on down.

    Probably 1/2 of our taproot stayed and the majority of our second team stayed. At this time I was so distraught and felt so betrayed. All this work we had done for years and years gone just like that. Thankfully by God’s grace my husband never left his job. He could have, we had replaced his income earlier that year but he was holding out for a contract change first. Thru this time leading up to the phone call when we knew something was going on I just kept praying. I am thankful for the outcome. I believe with my whole heart God weeded the people out of our lives that needed to be. Had I not prayed for a few months before this I probably would of really freaked out.

    Here is some of the justice that happened. First, the P’s, with their slick, coniving, greedy selves, got some of their just desert. They thought they could put the whiner and his whinettes in a weak team. Boy they had it all figured out. The irony is the whiner and the P’s orchestrated all of this based on the #2 being the whiner’s sponsor and he did not pick them to be. Whiner should have gotten to pick his sponsor he cried. Now we had been in MV for approx a year when he cried this. (Can you say liar. “I’m not making any money because I didn’t build my business so I want to steal yours and I’ll use this excuse to get what I want” thumb in mouth) So the P’s had it all planned to benefit their greedy little selves. But aha! No way #2 said because you will still be in my line of sponsorship and I will still be the whiners upline. So now what could the P’s say. They certainly weren’t going to tell the truth. The P’s had to put the whiners and everyone that went with them in their strongest team. The P’s just hurt their business majorly!! We were all in their weakest leg. Now their weakest leg just got weaker. Wink Wink.

    Overnight because of greed, they killed EVERYONE’s business with that decision. We tried to stay in the business for a few months but when your eyes are opened and you puked up the blue or red or whatever pill they fed you your concience cannot allow you to show the plan anymore. You now know the truth and the truth sets you free. Anyone with a conscience cannot knowingly lie to someone for personal gain. Before this I truly believed in what I did. Yes I am ashamed to admit it and I will have to live with the knowledge that I was personally responsible for ruining peoples lives. I can’t change the past but I sure can let the truth be known.

    I believe everything happens for a reason. I am glad that happened. It released me from the lies and ruin that business caused in my life. Every person I have spoke with that stayed with us is so glad that happened and they are out of the business too.

    I have a lot more but this is good for starters. P.S. I sat across from the kitchen table with the P’s and they looked me square in the eye and told me almost verbatim “It is okay to take someone’s sponsor and change it to someone else if they are not building the business.” That was their excuse for taking our sponsorship away from us. We had stopped building the business for 2 months or less because of family issues. However they were doing this before we took a couple of months off the business. IT IS A COMPLETE LIE THAT YOU CAN HAVE RESIDUAL INCOME. BUILD IT AND WALK AWAY. IF YOU DO THEY WILL TAKE IT AND THINK IT IS PERFECTLY OK TO DO SO.

    My story is peanuts compared to what happened to the Morgan’s and others. My heart goes out to all of you. I firmly believe they will get the justice that is deserved.

  86. Robin permalink
    December 10, 2011 10:26 pm

    Oh forgot to mention: They thought we would just happily go along and take our whole teams over and screw #2. They didn’t count on us having a conscience. It caused major splits in our teams. What a shocker they had when we told them to stick it. The P’s are just people, the PC’s are just people. I am not an *** kisser nor do I like mine kissed. What is right is right. They could not believe we threw a monkey wrench in their perfect plan. How anyone could think it is ok to wipe out any other person’s team for any reason needs some serious help with their morals.

    Besides they had already gave us a taste of their integrity along the way. I’ll pass.

  87. December 10, 2011 11:36 pm

    All the stories sound sickeningly familiar. Getting into credit card debt for upline recognition, fake pins, fake recognitions, pin clubs to promote all the downlines to buy volume.

    One of my previous employers, contributed 5% into my retirement account, if I contributed 5%. My sponsor know it all financial guru had this great piece of advice for me “Why do u want to put 5% into your retirement account, when you can keep it aside for business expenses. You know, we are 100% sold into the business and dont count on retirement money.” What a scumbag. After my sponsor qualified as a platinum, we were in so much credit card debt that we had to finally take out money from our retirement account for our wedding.

    I have seen my upline diamond discouraging people who were pursuing higher studies. They just wanted IBOs to get whatever job that they could get, so that they could focus on the business. Scumbags to the nth degree. These same people want their daughters to go to Princeton. I dont know how these people can talk constantly about honesty, integrity, ethics and promote John Maxwell’s books.

    As much as I would like my uplines and the system to be held responsible for all the havoc they have caused and are still causing, I would like companies like Amway, Monavie etc to be held responsible as well. They have some namesake rules and regulations and turn a blind eye when they see huge orders placed on the last day of the month. If a few IBOs get huge orders on the last day of the month then you could probably say they are go getters. But if almost all the legs of qualifying platinums, emerlads and diamonds have last day mega orders..then shouldnt red flags go up??

    I dont know what kind of lives these big pin upline ladies live. How could they watch lives being ruined, for the sake of their fake recoginitions. No wonder marriage of EDCs Ganesh and Neha Shenoy ended in a divorce.

    All this hapens and there are idiots who come and comment on my blog that I dont have guts and quit and blah blah blah. I am extremely glad that I had the courage and guts to quit and am proud to say that I have accomplished a lot in these couple of years that I have been inactive.

    Happy exteamers reunion:)). Wish there was a exbwwers reunion,so that we could talk negatively as much as want

  88. Finally permalink
    December 11, 2011 5:19 am

    Wow Robin, so sorry to hear but happy to hear that you are free……….They will all get theirs…think of it, when the walls come crumbling down, and they will, what are they going to do for money??????? Can you imagine jim martin going back to plumbing? Mark Paul going back to engineering, actually Jen Paul already took on another income………I think they know. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away…….

  89. john gilbert permalink
    December 11, 2011 6:59 am

    This is very interesting. How could one man, Orrin, keep you guys in his grips all this time? Bringing ruin to your home and finances? I mean, if the CDs are bs, wouldnt you know it after the first time you listened to a few? If it was so bad with Team, why didnt you stand up in the beginning? You were aware that people were being screwed, if they were. But , by your own admission, you continued on in the organization. If all this has happened, how about some proof? Talk, talk, talk, how about ponying up some real evidence. If you can prove what you say, Orrin is not a good man to deal with, and you guys are very stupid. But if you dont have the balls to present your evidence, then go back to listening to someone elses mind numbing cds and quit your whining. If ya got it bring it!!

  90. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 8:00 am

    Finally- What is Jen Paul doing?

    Robin- WOW! Holy smokes your story is DISCUSTING, but some of it sounds so familiar. It is amazing how they used the ” person didn’t pick their sponsor”! How about the person has no choice in who is there sponsor! It is the person who contacted them and helped them build their team, or if personB who contacted them quit years ago, it is the person who brought that personB into the business!! This bullshit excuse is what Orrin is using to cover his ass from lawsuits, and I am sure it is what he will try to use if he gets sued for not following MV rules and solicting other leaders personals into LIFE!

    Robin- “At this time I was so distraught and felt so betrayed. All this work we had done for years and years gone just like that.”
    I felt the same way, it was devastating to say the least. Years away from my family building teams for the very people that betrayed me! While many upline and downline were at home enjoying their families, my kids were sacrificing! Almost every night for years, they were having dinner and going to bed without me ! After years of serving and building my teams, the thumbsucking ass kissers, leaders who benefited, and PC including Orrin, had the nerve to stab me in the back and screw me over! Some “leaders” who watched what they did to us, have the nerve to promote all of them from the team stage! All I can say is they must be either dellusional or really greedy, because they sure don’t have integrity!

    Robin- “when your eyes are opened and you puked up the blue or red or whatever pill they fed you your concience cannot allow you to show the plan anymore. You now know the truth and the truth sets you free. Anyone with a conscience cannot knowingly lie to someone for personal gain. Before this I truly believed in what I did. Yes I am ashamed to admit it and I will have to live with the knowledge that I was personally responsible for ruining peoples lives. I can’t change the past but I sure can let the truth be known.”

    I couldn’t agree with you more! Thanks for sharing your story!

  91. brent hansen permalink
    December 11, 2011 8:42 am


    Your post is excellent and I would like to comment.

    I personally remember the credit card debt, falling behind on installment debt, creative financing, stress, arguments, marital contention. Seeing someone in my group lose their home due to building their dream business, and being ‘all in’. Someone who had an above average income, and should have been able to keep his home, but funneled so much into their Q business they couldn’t maintain.

    I watched another good friend in my group rack up $50,000 of credit card debt while building their business, and they only reached the 4000 PV level before it all imploded on them. Here it is 10 years later, and he has just finished paying off the last of the $50,000.

    All the while listening to the upline shovel their crap about investment vs expense, and always preaching that total freedom was just around the corner for those who just continued the pursuit. Not once did they teach about ROI, break even strategies or the mathematical failure rates of each structure. The truth was the furthest thing from their lips.

    Funny how my upline diamonds were only qualifying as platinums in Q, just like many of us, but were making 400K a year from tool sales and running their own function. If they couldn’t build, keep and maintain 3 or 6 teams, how could they expect the rest of their group to do it? After all, they were job free with lots of time and financial resources, they should have been able to build it and keep it sustainable right?

    Although the different groups and leaders are major problems because they perpertuate the lie, the root of the problem lies at the company level. When your plan is written with a 95% plus mandatory failure rate, and hyper-inflated, unsaleable products, there is no alternative other than financial failure.

    People are so disillusioned when they join MLM, cognitive dissonance is in over drive, and all logic and reason are out the window as they fall prey to emotion. I have been there, so I understand, but struggle to understand why now, in the day and age of the internet with a massive surge of information how people still can be so easily deceived.

    The stress and strain on marriages is caused because deep down every person knows that they are living a unsustainable lie. Years before I left, I knew that my upline was scum, yet not knowing or understanding the math, I thought I could plow through all of the crap and succeed despite them. That much disharmony cannot simply be denied, sooner or later it surfaces and has to be dealt with, usually resulting in financial ruin, divorce, broken friendships, relationships and trust.

    I know you have all seen the multitude of Amway related divorces from top earners within the company, but in spite of exeagle’s post, I believe it is worth another look.

  92. Finally permalink
    December 11, 2011 9:12 am

    I heard she is into some type of holistic healing. I know that someone on Marks team is into it and from what I have heard they swear by it but the woman does it on the sly…something to do with the FDA and the machine she uses to determine what is wrong with you. Once the machine tells the story she prescribes a natural remedy. I don’t know if that is the same thing Jen is doing, I couldn’t confirm that. What I do know is one of Tims downline’s wife went to the woman for migraines, she initially saw some improvement but over all there was no benefit………..and it costs thousands to do this long term……….I also know that they are promoting this woman even after they saw that it didn’t give the results that she claimed it would………..Another case of misleading people into spending money…….Again because the woman is diagnosing without a medical license I believe this is illegal.

  93. Mike Collins permalink
    December 11, 2011 10:03 am

    John said: Lewis, Speiwalk, Radossa, Morgan, and Birtles are all guilty just as much as Orrin, Chris, Tim and anyone else. ………….

    They all know what they are doing. I am convinced that these people know the only way they can get the new person in their business is to lie about the dream, the residual income, the opportunity, the percentage of those that make it, and lie about the success of those who are already in. The entire business is built on lies. They lie so much they don’t even consider their lies to be lies.

    John, this is true of 99% of ALL MLM models out there. The comp plans ensure it.

    I have recently taken to task a friend of mine who is the master distributor for a new company over the horrendous numbers associated with the comp plan they have chosen. It is a complete piece of crap. It will only succeed in enriching a few at the expense of the masses of ignorant/unlearned, novice networkers.

    As I pointed this out to him he explained that they are different because they are telling people the truth. They are telling them the truth about the numbers. In other words, how many people they will need to have in their business in order to make enough to pay for their autoship or make $500 a month or $3000 a month etc. They are telling them the truth.

    What remains to be seen is if they will teach this “truth” on their conference calls or at their functions OR if it will remain the responsibility of the individual sponsors. If it is the latter, expect it to get watered down the further from the top they are until it doesn’t’ exist at all at the lower levels (where the masses are/where the money is).

    The simple fact is John that “The entire business is built on lies” is really indicative of the majority (not all) of these MLM companies. If the truth was taught from the stage the “masses” would engage in a “MASS” exit right out the door.

  94. Mike Collins permalink
    December 11, 2011 10:26 am

    @ Speak and Webelieved: My conversation with Troy in regard to the people on this thread did not go on for long. My conversation consisted mainly of me telling
    Troy what I knew about this industry including how MV was really built, backroom deals, MV Black Diamonds publicly lying about their incomes, compensation structures, and a “deal” I was personally offered by a company owner recently that would have netted me potentially 10’s if not 100’s of thousands of dollars.

    The purpose of my conversation with Troy was to get his honest reaction to what I was telling him. I wanted to finally make up my mind about him and his “position.”

    As far as what was said about you folks and this thread, the only thing I remember him saying that he has not already written here is that Orrin knows who the people are on this thread.

    But, here is my take on that: It would not take a brain surgeon to deduce who all of you are if I had intimate knowledge of the things you are saying here. I could probably guess within 99% accuracy who each of you are by the details of each of your stories. Especially if I had screwed you over. Nevertheless, it doesn’t matter if he thinks he knows or even if he knows who you are if he cannot prove it.

    It’s impossible to sue someone if you can’t positively identify them.

    Just keep doing what you are all doing……snatching people from this ridiculous farce of a “business opportunity” called Life.

    To those of you new to this thread who are wondering if any of this stuff is true I say this: Use your critical thinking skills. Read as much of this thread as you can stomach then ask yourself if any group of people can make this stuff up. I believe that you will find that there is a preponderance of the evidence that shows that these people are absolutely telling the truth.

  95. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 11:20 am

    Mike or anyone- I was thinking about perponderance of evidence just this moring kind of ironic. The LIFE contract says so much to stop torte lawsuits I believe this is something they are afraid of past distributors doing, no? I have been wondering what torte is?I would assume it might be an avenue for a lawsuit. Can anyone comment?

  96. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    December 11, 2011 12:23 pm

    This is a good description of what a Tore Law is:

    In the most basic sense, it appears to be any civil suits that don’t deal with breach of contracts. Based on what I’ve been seeing on-line, this could include the civil actions relating to harm caused by fraud. If you follow the trail, you will find that pyramid schemes fall under the category of investment fraud ( Another one is called Confidence fraud (, This one is very interesting.

    Based on 15 minutes worth of investigating “tort law”, I can see why Orrin & Co. would be worried about Tort lawsuits.

  97. John Gilbert permalink
    December 11, 2011 1:34 pm

    Isnt this interesting. I posted a comment, and because it questions the Top here, it gets trashed. Hmmm, what kettle is calling the pot black now? Amazing, I ask that people who say this is happening prove it with evidence, and the comment never sees the light of day. Telling.

  98. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 1:49 pm

    Wikipedia definition of

    Tort Law

    “A tort, in common law jurisdictions, is a wrong[1] that involves a breach of a civil duty (other than a contractual duty) owed to someone else. It is differentiated from a crime, which involves a breach of a duty owed to society in general. Though many acts are both torts and crimes, prosecutions for crime are mostly made by the state, private prosecutions being rarely used; whereas a person who has been injured may bring a lawsuit for tort. It is also differentiated from equity, in which a petitioner complains of a violation of some right. One who commits a tortious act is called a tortfeasor. The equivalent of tort in civil law jurisdictions is delict.

    Tort may be defined as a personal injury; or as “a civil action other than a breach of contract.”[citation needed]

    A person who suffers a tortious injury is entitled to receive “damages”, usually monetary compensation, from the person or people responsible — or liable — for those injuries. Tort law defines what is a legal injury and, therefore, whether a person may be held liable for an injury they have caused. Legal injuries are not limited to physical injuries. They may also include emotional, economic, or reputational injuries as well as violations of privacy, property, or constitutional rights. Tort cases therefore comprise such varied topics as auto accidents, false imprisonment, defamation, product liability (for defective consumer products), copyright infringement, and environmental pollution (toxic torts), among many others.

    In much of the common law world, the most prominent tort liability is negligence. If the injured party can prove that the person believed to have caused the injury acted negligently – that is, without taking reasonable care to avoid injuring others – tort law will allow compensation.

    However, tort law also recognizes intentional torts, where a person has intentionally acted in a way that harms another, and “strict liability” or quasi-tort, which allows recovery under certain circumstances without the need to demonstrate negligence.”

    I love it “without the need to demonstrate negligence”.
    Interesting that in the new LIFE contract it states all kinds of protections for LIFE from tort lawsuits isn’t it? I wonder why? Perhaps they don’t want the distributor to have any rights when they screw them over. I sure am glad I didn’t sign that one!

  99. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 2:19 pm


    “The main remedy against tortious loss is compensation in ‘damages’ or money…….”

    “The more severe penalties available in criminal law also means that it requires a higher burden of proof to be discharged than the related tort. For example, in the O. J. Simpson murder trial, the jury was not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that O. J. Simpson had committed the crime of murder; but in a later civil trial, the jury in that case felt that there was sufficient evidence to meet the standard of preponderance of the evidence required to prove the tort of wrongful death.”
    “……..Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress
    A person commits IIED when he intentionally or recklessly engages in extreme and outrageous conduct that is highly likely to cause severe emotional distress……….”
    “….Extreme and outrageous conduct refers to the act. Severe emotional distress refers to the result. This is another intentional tort for which no damage is ordinarily required. However, some jurisdictions require the accompaniment of physical effects. In other words, emotional distress will not be deemed to exist in those jurisdictions unless there are physical manifestations, such as vomiting or fainting.”
    Preponderance of the evidence

    Preponderance of Evidence from Wikipedia

    “Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases.

    This is also the standard of proof used in Grand Jury indictment proceedings (which, unlike civil proceedings, are procedurally unrebuttable), and in family court determinations solely involving money, such as child support under the Child Support Standards Act.

    The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true. Lord Denning, in Miller v. Minister of Pensions,[4] described it simply as “more probable than not.” ”

    Seems like there is a good chance some here would win a civil lawsuit, tort against Team and Orrin.
    What do you think?

  100. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 2:40 pm

    Here is another one

    Tortious Interference- Wikipedia

    Tortious interference, also known as intentional interference with contractual relations, in the common law of tort, occurs when a person intentionally damages the plaintiff’s contractual or other business relationships.
    Typical examples
    1.Tortious interference of business.- When false claims and accusations are made against a business or an individual’s reputation in order to drive business away.
    2.Tortious interference of contract.- When an individual uses “tort” (a wrongful act) to come in between two parties mutual contract.


    Although the specific elements required to prove a claim of tortious interference vary from one jurisdiction to another, they typically include the following:
    1.The existence of a contractual relationship or beneficial business relationship between two parties.
    2.Knowledge of that relationship by a third party.
    3.Intent of the third party to induce a party to the relationship to breach the relationship.
    4.Lack of any privilege on the part of the third party to induce such a breach.
    5.The contractual relationship is breached.
    6.Damage to the party against whom the breach occurs. [1]

    The first element may, in employment-at-will jurisdictions, be held fulfilled in regards to a previously unterminated employer/employee relationship.


    Typical legal remedies for tortious interference include economic losses if they can be proven with certainty and mental distress. Additionally punitive damages may be awarded if malice on the part of the wrongdoer can be established.

  101. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 2:53 pm

    Does anyone know if there is a statute of limitations on tort lawsuits? There is a group of leaders that can come together that were screwed by Orrin and Co. They could file a tort lawsuit for tortious interference, emotional distress, financial distress, undue influence etc.

    There is another group of thousands and thousands of distributors that never made a dime, that could file a class action against Team for the deceptive business practices that were used to get them to buy team tools etc. With volume loading, tool buying, secret freebies for recognition etc. Many of us could testify for them with the information we know.
    We all know everything techniques, lies etc. comes from the top. Can you believe they are STILL promoting/implying pasive, residual income! I cannot even believe it!

  102. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 5:03 pm

    Is Team/LIFE a cult since it was an Amway Motivational Organization originally?
    Here is a great article i found.

  103. webelieved permalink
    December 11, 2011 8:39 pm

    Check out this post from teamscam

    129.scam/real/cult Says:
    December 11th, 2011 at 11:56 am
    so, iv been in team for about a month iv spent a bout 250$ on just getting started learning leadership stuff, so far team hasn’t showed me a way to make millions, they seem to talk allot about making money but what they seem to show is only a small % actually make the money and it is by telling people they can make money, having them spend money getting stuck in a idk what to do, spend more money because they are brainwashed into thinking its only because they haven’t used enough of there “tools”. my roommate told me i was in a cult and looked up this site, iv looked at allot of the stories and they seem to match what iv been feeling, so i guess tonight im going to forget all the numbers, names, places, accounts iv been given cut my loses and get out of this scheme, (thankyou teamscam(.)com for en lighting me)

    I wonder how much money he has made.

  104. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 8:33 am

    Here is another church being used for a recruiting ground. Too bad a pastor doesen’t write a book how these groups destroy people’s faith and divide their churches. Good thing at some pastors and parishioners are catching on to this.

    133.sheryl Says:
    December 12th, 2011 at 9:34 am
    webelieved Tell we why the numbers are increasing to this cult. Most of my friends in this scam will not talk to me about it. Its like a big secret. I just can’t believe the people from my church are so involved totally against the Bible I spoke to other Pastors of my faith and they say stay away from group I can tell by the way my friends talk they are getting brain washed.So sad.It shows the world is getting desperate for someone to make them feel good. If they would just look at the Bible they would find there answers.I am thinking that Orrin is part of the Anti Christ fooling every one Just tell me how this is happening.

  105. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 8:54 am

    Mike- I find it interesting if Orrin says he knows who is speaking on this site, then he is also admitting that the stories we have told here are true! Not very smart is he.
    You would have thought Troy would’ve picked up on that! LOL!

  106. Scott Gleason permalink
    December 12, 2011 9:52 am

    I don’t know if Orrin would go this far, but it wouldn’t be hard for him to get a lawyer and subopena the I.P Addresses of everyone that posts here. That’s how the music industry is finding people who illegally share software. Once the laywer has your I.P. they can find your internet provider and then you. I hope it never comes to that, but keep it in mind when you post here.

  107. Vogel permalink
    December 12, 2011 10:02 am

    I beg to differ. I think it would be quite hard. Judges don’t grant such requests willy nilly.

  108. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 11:03 am

    Scott I think stealing music and posting opinions are two different things. People post their opinions all over the internet these days. Also I seem to remember your name, have you posted here before? Are you on team/life? I was wondering if your comment was a general warning or a threat? I am sure for anyone on team the truth coming out about the Morgans the Raatz and others will hurt their bottom line.

    As far as Orrin goes, I do not care what he thinks as he has no influence in my life. In fact I truly think it would be great fun and a service to human kind for all of us to come out with our names and tell our stories in front of a judge, for all the world to see! It would be very revealing don’t you think?
    There is a REASON he hasn’t tried to shut us up in public and reveal our identities as it would be very damaging for him. He knows we have tons of evidence and witnesses against what he has done.
    In fact Orrin has banked on the belief that people would be ashamed, afraid and stay quiet about the abuse they have suffered at his and others hands. What he doesn’t realize is now we live in the real world where people can say and do whatever the heck they want. We are not under his oppressive dictatorship anymore and we are speaking out. His little plan is backfiring because he has used, abused and ticked off the wrong people and we are getting stronger everyday. He certainly doesn’t want to take anyone here to court as that would backfire in his face, big time and he knows it. Too many leaders would come together and testify against him and his scam of a business he ran runs. 🙂

    [Editor’s Note: correction]

  109. Mike Collins permalink
    December 12, 2011 11:29 am

    Webelieved: correction, you mean the scam business he runs….. Right? Lol

    And not that any of you have anything to worry about but you can always use a proxy server if you were concerned about someone finding your IP address

  110. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 11:55 am

    Runs! LOL! Thanks Mike! 🙂

  111. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 12:07 pm

    ex-eagle- I was thinking you could come to our reunion. I am sure you would fit right in! 🙂

  112. December 12, 2011 12:14 pm

    @John Gilbert – First-time people commenting on this site need their initial comment approved. Your first and second comments have now been approved.

    Dissenting viewpoints are welcome on this blog. I’m sure you will get many responses to your inquiries.

  113. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 12, 2011 1:07 pm

    John Gilbert~

    Something seems to have struck a nerve here with you. Is it the stories that are bothering you? What ‘evidence’ are you looking for, could it be that you are struggling with 2 conflicting beliefs at the moment?

    It is blantanly obvious you haven’t read even a fraction of this blog, and doubt you even read this full thread. Go back and read Mike’s comments, just 2 comments above yours (Dec. 11, 2011 @ 10:26) you would have read and understood ‘preponderance of evidence.’

    We already know this has created 2 conflicting beliefs within you but we also know your gut is telling you something is wrong. Read the rest of the site, you wouldn’t be so arrogant. Your arrogance; you can see it has already bit you once.

  114. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 12, 2011 1:21 pm

    John Gilbert~

    You could also read webelieved’s comments who put up some definitions. Would you happen to be on the Morgan’s, Raatz, or Paul team and possibly have seen these things in your upline or team?

    And to answer your question, NO we didn’t know after the 1st CD. As I stated if you would read ex-team comments and the rest of the site you wouldn’t even have to ask that question.

    If you would have read the story in this post you would have also found out it was after years of building Amway/Quixtar and some of the corruption occured during the registration into Monavie; which was years after the teams were already established, including the whole Team.

    Which was originally the Team of Destiny, then Team, the Monavie Team, and Now LieF Team. Another challenge for you would be to find out why Orrin has changed the names of the same business 4 different times, with the exact same business? These answers and many others you will find by reading this blog.

  115. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 1:37 pm

    John Gilbert- Unlike Orrin and all the team leaders blogs, disenting comments are allowed and posted here by Amthrax. Also we could not always see the crooked shennanigans that were going on behind the scenes, when we found out we stopped promoting Team. It is clear you haven’t read the whole blog. But it’s ok, we forgive you. We allow all opinions here, good, bad and ugly. You may want to change your attitude though, you will get more bees with honey. 🙂

  116. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 1:40 pm

    John Gilbert- I have plenty of evidence and will use it at the right time in front of a judge if need be. 😉

  117. Finally permalink
    December 12, 2011 1:59 pm

    Scott, you are probably giving this advice to protect us but do you think anyone is worried about Orrin finding out who is on here??? Does he want all of us to ban together in court agains him?? What are they going to sue for?? Let’s say that Orrin claims someone is lying about how he splits up team profit sharing, the attorneys then look at the actual numbers the team files for taxes or whatever……..The ACTUAL numbers, do you think for one minute Orrin would want the real numbers out there? His included ? I personally think it is a great idea and welcome the day it happens. Does he want the truth from all of these stories out on public record? You see the difference between this site and what Orrin was doing during the Q lawsuit, this site has real stories, from real people that have real evidence. All stuff that, for now is only know by the individuals. Wait until the real numbers people choose to share from their pay from the Team. Prior to team Lief they actually posted your numbers in your groups on the check info………..Ask yourself why they no longer do that…………..wouldn’t that be appropriate???? They are hiding because of this site and when the truth comes out it is going to damage them……..And that my friend will give them the “opportunity of a lifetime” to face the brutal reality of where they are at…..cuz Scott, numbers do not lie, people lie and the numbers that Orrin profits from may eventually be the numbers that take him down……actually he is taking himself down………..Pride cometh before the fall…………..

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 12, 2011 1:59 pm


    Thanks for your response. I know that trying to create ‘fear’ that Orrin knows who we are is all apart of a ‘bullies M.O.’ and we all know Orrin has openly admitted he was a bully but of course says he has changed that. Not by his actions, so I am not sure how he changed.

    This would be a very bad move for him to ‘supeona’ this websites to find out who has been on here because I am 99% sure…lol…that a lot of the teamers..including Orrin have commented on here under a anonymous moniker, can’t prove it not to mention Qrush, and all the other anonymous blogging he order under his dictatorship.. it would beat at his own game and go public because all the IP addresses would get revealed and am sure there are some who would testify to all of his other anonymous ones.


    You took the words right out of my mouth. It would be extremely damaging and would go Public in a big way. I also agree with Vogel, it would be very difficult and very costly to do. So, I guess if Orrin wants everything on this site to go Public then I guess he has a choice to make but one thing is certain he isn’t going to bully people nor suppress them from telling the truth. The truth is all we have to fight the lies. So, keep up the good fight as more and more stories come forth, it gives others courage to tell the truth of what happened to them. One thing I know is if you don’t stand up to a Bully then the bully continues to bully.

    I personally want to thank ALL of those who are encouraging to those on this site and others to tell the truth, including Amthrax who has provided this forum. 🙂

  119. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 12, 2011 2:02 pm


    That post rocks! 🙂

  120. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 2:03 pm

    Finally- Great Post! Ditto!!! LOL! Thanks for the laughs!!

  121. Scott Gleason permalink
    December 12, 2011 2:16 pm

    Webelieved – Yes I have commented here before. No, I am not a member of team/life. The only reason I posted what I did was because I noticed someone talking earier about Orrin knowing who was posting on here. I was simply pointing out if he really wanted to find out who was here, he could. If you want to be paranoid and take that as a threat I can’t stop you. I was only making an observation. Nothing more, nothing less. I agree with you he would be making a mistake, but sometimes people don’t think logically when their bottom line is being threatend.

  122. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 3:11 pm

    Thanks for answering, I am not paranoid, just cautious. Team leadership never handles anything directly and thanks for the observation. 🙂

  123. John Gilbert permalink
    December 12, 2011 3:41 pm

    Well, I got no dog in this fight. I am not affiliated with Mona vie or teamlife niether. I happened across this site after being approached by someone interested in getting me into Mona Vie. Heres my question. If this Orrin guy is greedy,and relys on people to make him millions through thier hardwork, why in the world would he screw a great earner and bring all that potential to a halt? It makes no sense. If I had a couple of suckers workin thier tails off for nothing in return, the last thing I would do, is steal from them and drive them away. Heck, I would keep them happy and in turn, bringing in the people and the bucks. When I say, show some proof, I am refering to some sort of statements, or paper that actually shows what you speak of. Certainly something exists that validates what is being said here. Now, I actually believe some of you are not the brightest bulbs in the pack. If, I were to sit and listen to some cds, month after month, and they are all the same, and had no intellectual value, I would not keep doing it. Perhaps you people threw your money to a guy selling Snakeoil? Maybe not. Maybe YOU messed it all up, not the people who head your former organization. Show me proof that Team leaders screwed you and I will be the first to say you are right and I am wrong. But, just talkin about so and so, and this PV and that, it aint doing a thing. THe fact is , you people recruited many people into this so called scheme knowingly subjecting them to the fate you ended up with. I say, Horsefeathers. Man up, show some proof. Right now, the stain of sour grapes is all over this thread. John

  124. Mike Collins permalink
    December 12, 2011 3:54 pm

    “John” I have no dog in the fight here either.

    Here’s my take on you though: you are probably a fictitious “John” here to run interference. I doubt very seriously you are being recruited to join “lief” but if you are my advice to you is to join. Then you can speak from first hand knowledge instead of talking out your ass.

  125. brent hansen permalink
    December 12, 2011 4:14 pm

    Hear hear, great challenge John, but I too believe you are ‘talking out your ass’. Did you bother reading about all the top leaders who filed bankruptcy? How about the mathematical analysis of the compensation plan? Get educated then come back with your ‘sour grapes’ b.s. Until then.

  126. John Gilbert permalink
    December 12, 2011 4:18 pm

    How am I talking out my ass? Run interference for what? Please elaborate. I am curious as to how all of this can be going on, and no one has gotten thrown in jail or been sued, if what some of these people claim has happened, has indeed happened. I need not join a MLM. Not interested. Certainley not interested in listening to cds from someone I dont know, or have any proof that the person making the cds, is worth me doing so. But what I am reading here, is that people are angry seemingly after they have gotten burned, not before. I may be wrong, but where are the people with virtue before ,,their dreams were stolen? I will tell you, fulfilling their own greedy desires.If the top of an organization is doing wrong, then the underlings employing the same tactics through training, are wrong as well. Of course they were trained by Woodward, hence all the tool sales you guys speak of.You may be angry with my questions, and that is fine. But when will someone post a copy of thier statements, or air a voice mail, or something that proves this? I find this interesting as hell, and will continue to ask questions. But tell me Mike Collins,. how high did you rise in the Monavie business? How many people did you take advantage of? You surely must have. You could not be in a business , with Woodward, recruiting for him, and not have the same sins on your scroll. Please elaborate if you were indeed in the biz.

  127. Vogel permalink
    December 12, 2011 4:18 pm

    I’ll second that. No one acting in good faith would try to put all the blame on the victims like he did. Does he think we can’t detect troll-stink when it comes wafting by?

  128. John Gilbert permalink
    December 12, 2011 4:22 pm

    I am not blaming anyone. Now it seems some of you are behaving like Wooward. How dare anyone question you . Are you guys only allowed to have YOUR questions, and opinions? seems that way. I am no troll. But I do have a brain with both sides functioning. And something is amiss here.

  129. das permalink
    December 12, 2011 4:42 pm

    John Gilbert, what is “amiss” here is that you have not experienced the TEAM or read very much on this site and have never experienced cult behaviors. Read up on cults and the questions you are asking will be answered.

  130. Mike Collins permalink
    December 12, 2011 4:43 pm

    If you take the time to read this thread instead of “talking out your ass” you will find the answers to your questions.

    I will however answer a couple of questions to humor you.

    1. I was a ruby in MV. Less than 1% ever make it that high. Frankly, i’m not as impressed with it as I once was.

    2. Plenty. I’ve called many of them to personally apologized and will continue to do so. I have made financial restitution when possible.

    3. I was never in Orrins business. I was in another set of crooks business.

    The reason I said “talking out your ass” is because that is exactly what you are doing because you are either A. ignorant about MLM and could use the education before you start insulting these folks. OR B. completely educated about this business model and are here to run interference. Either way, you’re talking out your ass.

    So here’s a few tips for you if you want to know the truth. Look up the definition of preponderance of evidence. Read this entire thread. If you want further information I can be reached at you can email me or we can set up a phone call if you like. Then use your critical thinking skills to decide if there is a common thread in what these folks are saying.

    One parting thought: Your questions don’t anger me…..your ignorance does.

    If you want to play nice, then I will too. If you don’t, neither will I.

  131. john gilbert permalink
    December 12, 2011 5:14 pm

    Mike Collins, first off, you are right, I am ignorant of this business. There is a common thread here with what these people are saying. They are Pissed. However, with my critical thinking, I cant understand how smart people can be so duped. So, I am gonna rule out the smart part of that sentence. So, you were in another set of crooks business. How many of these businesses are run by crooks, or are you just lucky? No, the answer is simple, you are like them, but for some reason after you felt betrayed, you came to the realization the businesses are “crooked”. I understand this clearly. One question I have, is how would I run interference? For what? How is asking questions, running interference for anything? But I am glad you came clean and admitted how you did play a part in hurting people in the other org. your honesty speaks volumes.

  132. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 12, 2011 5:38 pm


    I am sorry you and your team have suffered at the hands of these people who obviously put their needs and greed before others but most importantly commend and respect you for doing the right thing. The registration fiasco is the most destructive, greedy and idiotic move I have ever seen. Through this one decision they destroyed and lost some of their biggest builders. Losing the amount of builders would be telling and wonder how is working for them to be left with the managers.

    Some of your story is the same as what some of our team experienced. Everyone knows that personals did matter but because Orrin is the only one who really knew the game plan way before anyone else and didn’t announce the ‘move’ to MV til the last minute..and wanted everyone in NOW to rank the Woodward’s Presidential Rank, the other PC and a few others.

    It was obvious he let the PC in on how and what to do to rank themselves. Then our PC thought it was their right to control, demand people (creating unnecessary stress ) and execute the destruction. And by some of your comments seems the same in your team. I did chuckle at your comments on the 2nd teams they never gave a crap before about and now became the most important to Same in our teams because those 2nd TEAMS became $$$$$ signs for them and they could put them where they needed to rank and rake it in. Our PC did the same thing made all kinds of ‘promises’ and had been planting negative and de-edifying seeds to many of our leaders behind our back for over a year! What do you think, would they lie under oath about all these shenanigans?

    Orrin had time to work out the ‘deal’ with Dallin and knew exactly what he and the PC needed to do to rank themselves (more importantly HIM) and obviously they were going to take out anyone who got in the way of that or questioned or stood up to their unethical, immoral, and illegal (in a few cases) behavior.

    I do know of some ‘threats’ about personals and they got the us (the ones who refused to buckle to their scam) vs them (the ones who sold their souls for the $$) they had this division working well during this process, just as you have described in your team. Then they had the audacity to ‘blame’ it on the ‘chaos’… that they created! You will find throughout this blog it wasn’t one line of sponsorship this was done in. All the stories have their own twist and methods of destruction, but it was done team wide, so therefore as with all information and everything that is done…it comes from Orrin first and then is spread through the whisper campaign through those who talk directly with Orrin on down to the bottom person.

    What I found very telling about the Paul’s character and motive was you said; “Sat across from the kitchen table with the P’s and they looked me square in the eye and told me almost verbatim “It is okay to take someone’s sponsor and change it to someone else if they are not building the business.” That was their excuse for taking our sponsorship away from us.” Didn’t the Paul’s get their business suspended at one time, in Q for selling product on eBay?

    I can tell you that same belief about taking sponsors and whole teams was done by the blind (mis) leaders who were told to carry out the orders from ‘ Orrin & the PC’ in our team. Our PC tried personally to get other people to sell out their friends and steal their teams!

    You said; “Overnight because of greed, they killed EVERYONE’s business with that decision.” So true and was the case in our team also!

    Here is a doozy for you; Orrin gave orders to everyone…when to ‘resign’; with a word for word letter on how to do it, then I believe he panicked because Q/A was on to him; then does a 360 and tells everyone..STOP…don’t everyone resign the same time, which then allowed them to screw people when putting others in MV because everyone’s 6 months wait wasn’t up at the same time.

    So when it came time to register people, they got screwed left and right and this is where I believe the illegal shenanigans came in. Some were told to put their businesses in other family members names, which they did because it was illegal to put it in their names at that time, so they wouldn’t end up with their downlines becoming their uplines, which did happen in a few cases, and some lost their whole groups because those with the registering ‘rights’; dictated by the PC decided where people were going to go.

    But the kicker for us was; and I quote…Orrin said; “If they weren’t smart enough to quit, then to hell with them.”…Remember that one Orrin or would you try and lie out of it?

    Then our PC executed the destruction…and that is why we Quit. We Thank God.. This happened, and without a doubt was the day Truth about their character and motives hit us like a Mac truck, square in the face, and we no longer could be fooled. We were in shock and needless to say very angry and what these guys were doing, then a confrontation; which it ended it all but the shenanigan’s defintely weren’t over!

    There was no question that these guys were Greedy, and we could see who they had become.

    Thanks for having the guts and integrity to do the right thing and share on here to help others! Hope you keep sharing. 🙂

  133. Mike Collins permalink
    December 12, 2011 5:52 pm

    John said: “However, with my critical thinking, I cant understand how smart people can be so duped”.

    And you will never understand without taking some time to fact find which will help you “understand”………………..understand?

    “So, I am gonna rule out the smart part of that sentence.”

    A statement based in your ignorance. There are people on this thread WAY smarter than you……..this is obvious.

    “No, the answer is simple, you are like them, but for some reason after you felt betrayed, you came to the realization the businesses are “crooked”.”

    John, this is another ignorant conclusion you have jumped to without knowing, nor taking the time to know, any facts.

    “One question I have, is how would I run interference? For what? How is asking questions, running interference for anything?”

    Really John? Is this a rhetorical question? Or is it that you are just hell bent on displaying how ignorant you really are?

  134. Finally permalink
    December 12, 2011 5:58 pm

    Thanks speak and we believed, I know in my heart that the folks on here are legitimate and the sorrow and pain is real. Outsiders will never understand that in the midst of what we were doing we actually thought at some point we were making a difference as well as a living. I don’t believe the corruption started until MV. Peoples personals were stolen along with their incomes all to profit the few that would do what they wanted when they wanted them to do it. I have spoken with many ex team. Recently I have spoken with part of the Martin/Marks team. There is loyalty given to the Martins because they, when asked, jumped on the Q lawsuit with the Team. It is many peoples first hand experience that they can do no wrong in Tim’s eyes and they are being rewarded while other’s are being bullied out. Don’t you dare question them to their up line because you are to lowly and insignificant to have any thing on them………..There is many a leader from team with the same opinion, it is amazing at the “cattiness” that goes on at the tables at Tuesday’s LOL. A lot of info.

    In my eyes the biggest sin the team committed is what I heard they have done to Pastor Dickie and his son’s. It is un biblical and down right mean. I believe in my own opinion the one person in the world that could damage Orrin and team the most Is Robert Dickie the III. He obviously has taken the high road and moved on with his life, but as a former officer in the Military and having been on his way to General before he committed to Team, I do not believe for one minute that if it came down to it Orrin would be able to damage control what the former CEO of Team must know, and able to prove. Orrin’s biggest tool in the past is that everyone bought into him………now there are countless people that have had their incomes and reputations damaged by him………by the way I am in no way talking for Robert, these are just my opinions. He seems to be more interested in his character while Orrin and company are worried about their reputations…….and cash flow.

    I wonder if Q could go back and sue again……….I know what I personally know could damage certain individuals further. I doubt anything could be done but I know first hand that some of them lied under oath and possibly did illegal things as well.

    Diito on Speaks kudo’s to all on this site and Amthrax. This site is their worst nightmare for now…..especially since it comes up on Google first when you search team lief….

    One more thing, check out some of the current team leaders Blogs……What a joke……
    They are continually third personing people on this site yet every single thing they say and claim they stand for they have violated in a HUGE Way. Not to mention the lies already about the Lief income……..I mean they all just got their first checks recently and that could only reflect the restructuring of their old teams…….What is the team mantra…”In a year one of us will be right” It won’t take that long to prove us right LOL

  135. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 6:00 pm

    I say John is trying to take away from the thread. Wow he is really angry and showing his heartlessness and downright rudeness for not being a team life member. Why is he so defensive if he is not a part of the team? This seems quite suspicous to me since we know Orrin is trying to figure out who we are.
    I would say it is an insult to Melanie Morgan and her family and all the other victims here that have suffered at the hands of these con artists. Try taking his argument to a victim of rape and see how far he gets blaming her for the clothes she wore or the building she was in. Sounds like he would stick up for the rapist and blame the victim. Would he ask her for evidence in such a rude way? …..
    I’m done with him, sounds like Orrin to me.

  136. December 12, 2011 6:11 pm

    Hi All,

    Because the story of these Round Table Members seems so “unbelievable”, I think more facts are needed to support it. First of all, let me write that I believe that injustice has been done to these members. As an outsider, however, it is still hard to understand how this could have happened and why the victims are not suing the people who did this to them.

    So, I do understand some of Gilbert’s questions and I think it is legitimate to ask for facts. I also asked myself the question why OW would treat the people who brought him wealth, so badly. What does or did OW have to gain by that?

    However, I do not understand the insulting part of Gilbert’s remarks. I understand that ex-members react to this and are suspicious about the real reason why Gilbert is posting his questions. People who have never been scammed before can be very harsh and judgmental in their opinion about (financial) victims “of how stupid, greedy, etc. they have been” .

    Therefore, I think the questions are legitimate, and insulting back does not add any information to the discussion. Maybe Gilbert is just on this blog to interfere, however, outsiders like myself would really want to understand what can happen to someone in a MLM/TEAM/LIFE environment, in this case the downfall of two TEAM Round Table members.

  137. Mike Collins permalink
    December 12, 2011 6:25 pm

    Me: I hear what you are saying and I can appreciate it.

    Two things you should know about me that might help you understand my responses to John.

    I have a great bullsh@t detector and it’s set on its most sensitive setting.


    I fight fire with fire.

  138. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 6:33 pm

    I don’t mind questions me, but people do not have to be rude about it. He is insulting and I refuse to answer to his rudeness. I would tell you the reason people don’t sue is they have lost everything: their previous incomes, jobs, retirement, savings, friendships. How does one afford an attorney when they are just hardly getting by feeding their families. income to and have a millionare they would be fighting, also some are seriously ill. Some are under a contract that they cannot speak freely of their experiences, ever or they will be drug into arbitration with their victims. See the team life contract. Some signed contracts that take away all of their rights and will be silenced in a gag order in arbitration if they try to sue. Take a look at the LIFE P&P’s it tells you a lot of the way they do business. Also the companies do not help the small distributors in these instances, so unless you have a boat load of money there isn’t much you can do. If anyone knows a large law firm that would love to take on a pro bono case and make some money, let us know.
    Also most of us were under mind control for years and it takes years to clear the fog, deal with betrayal, lost friends, division in churches, spiritual health, mental and physical health, financial health, etc. . Those are some of the reasons, but we don’t expect people who haven’t experienced this and lost it all to understand. We do have right to expect people to show us respect and we will do the same.

  139. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 6:51 pm

    I would say John is highly overreacting for not having an emotional or financial investment in team life. If he was just an outside observer, there is no way he would be so rude and accusing. Many would see his conversation as a huge red flag, knowing what we know.

  140. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    December 12, 2011 7:02 pm

    John Gilbert –

    I have not shared my story on this blog yet, but I will tonight. Mine is quite different than the others I have heard here. I did not make it far – I did not TRY to make it far. In fact I never actually got anyone else to join – I felt too guilty trying to scam someone into joining when I knew they could not afford it and wouldn’t be making any money at it. It may sound a little off the wall, but I actually joined, not to make money, not because I had dreams I thought TEAM could help me achieve. I joined because I have a friend who’s life is totally ruled by TEAM, and I wanted to find out what kind of organization could be so encompassing to someone.

    Going into the meetings, unlike others in attendance, I watched, listened, and saw through the BS. I remember a “special meeting” I got to attend. George Guzzardo was presenting. Every bone in my body screamed warnings. I remember my sponsor taking me up to the front to meet him after he spoke. George grabbed my hand, looked me in the eye, and then as if I was a kindergartner, asked if I was excited to be able to have hope back in my life.

    It continued to intrigue me on how my friend could give up so much for this organization. I quickly saw how they said the same thing over and over again. They promoted the CDs, the books, the monthly seminars, the leadership conventions. One huge circle. I kept attending, and quickly was able to predict exactly what would be said when we walked out the doors after a seminar. The thing was I did enjoy the monthly seminars and some of the leadership convention presentations. Unlike the vast majority of the people in the room, I would take a nugget here or there that would apply to different parts of my life. I never was able to believe in TEAM and Monavie enough to actually apply it to “my” business.

    Eventually, I just said enough was enough, I had heard it all and there wasn’t anymore to learn or maybe I should say, I wasn’t getting the value out of what I was spending, and I was finished dealing with my upline (not my friend/sponsor). If you can’t respect someone, how are you suppose to follow them? I watched and listened while my upline took full advantage of the rule to never say anything negative. These people were manipulators. They would mentor with George on different tactics to use with especially difficult people. They would steal product/tickets (they did that to me directly). They would lie through their teeth but they had integrity (just ask them).

    Why do I come on a site like this? I do it because my friend is still in the business. He is so faithful to TEAM and brainwashed. His eyes truly look glazed over (like a robot or zombie) when he is repeating things he has heard at the latest seminar. He thinks LIFE is a legitimate business because Orrin said it was and because there is a 39 page document with all the policies and procedures. Mind you, he didn’t read them, but his upline did. He was super impressed because it covered everything including divorce and marriage.

    Am I angry? Yes. It infuriates me that there are people in the world who take advantage of other people and steal their money. I have no issues with Orrin selling motivational or leadership material, but I do have an issue with Orrin telling people they too can make millions selling it when in reality they can’t. I have issues with George trying to find the right manipulation method that will work on the next unsuspecting victim. I find it repulsive that these people encourage others to sell everything they own, work extra jobs, give up their hobbies, give up their time, give up their lives to line the pocket of a select few. It breaks my heart to watch them prey on those who are so desperate for something that they will cling to what anyone above them in TEAM tells them. Almost everyone I have seen join TEAM was at rock bottom in some aspect of their life. TEAM filled this void somehow. These people are so desperate for that one thing – or two or three, that they ignore the facts. And then when they start looking at the facts, are told “The facts don’t matter.” The facts do matter and so do all of these people who are being manipulated.

    I watch this site in the hopes of finding that one tidbit that will help me be able to help my friend. I know he won’t see the truth until he is ready to, but I want to be there for him and be prepared when he does.

  141. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 7:08 pm

    John’s first post was very antagonizing and touting. His comment is accusing and patronizing and further tells me it is Orrin or one of his cronies.
    Read it .

    notice the reasonable comments back. He is a poser.

  142. brent hansen permalink
    December 12, 2011 7:12 pm


    You hit it on the head when you wrote, “I have no issues with Orrin selling motivational or leadership material, but I do have an issue with Orrin telling people they too can make millions selling it when in reality they can’t.”

    That is the TRUTH! I appreciate it. Thank you.

  143. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 7:27 pm

    Why would Orrin and George want to get rid of the Morgans or the Marks get rid of the Raatz?
    Can you say a BIG pay raise for George Guzzardo and Tim Marks? I would guess they took hundreds of thousands of dollars of income away from the Morgans and the Raatz. They took their teams and I am sure split them up wherever they needed more growth. How do you save money? Cut out the top incomes and it goes directly to your bottom line. Look at how big there teams were. Hello…… must not be the brightest bulb in the package yourself there John Gilbert. How like the insults John?

  144. webelieved permalink
    December 12, 2011 7:46 pm

    Orrin’s system of cd’s and seminars is indoctrination and propaganda for the destructive group that they are running. One thing people should be aware of, people do not join cults, they are deceptively recruited into them. They are lied to and decieved and promised one thing and delivered another. Team is not about leadership, it is a system of mind control and doctrine that is promoting a cult. A group where smart people will be decieved and trapped mentally. It controls information and environments, time , money, friendships etc.It is destructive period, regardless if the money works or not . It strips people of their identity and critical thinking and changes their belief systems to the groups doctrine. It is very destructive to families and society. If one wants to educate yourself on how you were manipulated or to protect yourself from being manipulated again, I would recomend you read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan.

    * all the above are based on my opinions and experiences with team and orrin woodward and co.

  145. No Team For Me permalink
    December 12, 2011 9:15 pm

    I can’t picture Orrin doing anything so stupid as to attempt to come after anyone on here. If he even remotely tried to subpeona the Amthrax records, imagine when all of us subpeona his personal records and the tax records of the other PC’s to verify that we are telling the truth.

    that’s a HUGE bag of worms I don’t think he wants to open. But just in case, I made several sets of copies with over 100 pages of documentation each of all kinds of information they probably would not want everyone to see. I would never personally release and publish this information.

    and I’m sure noone on here would do that either. But it’s only smart to make 7-10 copies off all legal documentation and even smarter to put them in 7-10 different locations. What if there is a fire? What if they are stolen? What if you give one to a friend who was never a part of TEAM who snoops and decides to publish their version of the story online for all to read because they know a friend is being wrongfully intimidated by someone trying to bully them with the legal system?

    If I were Orrin, I’d sure let sleeping dogs lie and hope all people would tire of posting the truth rather than open a hornets nest of documents flying around the web that could be pretty damaging.

    But the more people like John Gilbert who come on here posing as prospects when it’s pretty obvious who they are, the more it inspires us that this kind of deceit is reaching new levels and really needs to be stopped. Wouldn’t it be amazing if somehow it were proven that the ip address for John Gilbert actually turned out to be someone highly connected with TEAM. we already know Orrin and several of his leaders orchestrated annonymous posts many times in the past. Gee, do you think they might do it when the truth is coming out about them? Hmmmmmmm

  146. Robin permalink
    December 12, 2011 9:20 pm


    One thing that is different is our teams and sponsors did not change when we moved to MV. It was after the move and all the teams were in place. It was just an outright I’m taking your teams, and I am sponsoring your people.

    Nicely said on the MV move process. Your right everything was orchestrated down to a T for Orrin and the Pc’s. I had forgotton until you mentioned the “everyone sign up now” and then the panic.

    You know I am going to take some time to think about the business before MV. I think the greed has always been in place. I just didn’t realize it until it slapped me in the face.

    Yes you are right. Had forgotton how the Paul’s business was suspended for selling on ebay. Want to hear a dandy? They had a leader in their team that had told them repeatedly how they were struggling financially. P’s didn’t care, buy a ticket, go to major, buy more tools, etc. Well, they figured out a way to make their 150 pv by selling on ebay and was so excited they told the P’s about it. Immediately after they told Jenn she started selling on ebay and cut their price and purposely screwed her own leader in her team. Karma’s a bitch isn’t it. Glad she had to sit out for 6 months! She deserved it. So now I take the comment about having to think about how the team was before MV. Conclusion: the same just didn’t know it. I didn’t find out about this until after we were out and ran into that couple and started comparing situations.

    Good for you for doing the right thing. That is what I see from all the posts from people who have been hurt by this business. The one’s with integrity left when the truth was found out.

    To John,

    If you want to call me stupid for being a part of this business then I’ll take it. However, there is a difference between stupid and ignorant. I do not consider myself a stupid person. I own a business and my family owns several businesses that I help run. They are all successful. I was a complete ignorant person. I am very embarressed. I asked myself all the time how I could have been so dumb and fell for their crap. I was in this business for 7 years. John, it is so gradual and so well manipulated that the new person doesn’t see it coming. I am not claiming to be a victim. I do, however, claim I have been wronged, cheated, lied to, and deceived. I am not bitter, but thankful. Oh don’t get me wrong, I was bitter, angry, hurt, etc. for a long time. It takes time to heal and go thru the emotions. Many of those people that did the above I loved dearly and were my friends so I thought. That is what hurt the most. Please look up cults. I can’t even believe I fell for it. But I did. No excuses. I chose to believe and follow them. I am glad the wool was pulled from my eyes. And yes, John, we all regret unknowingly leading others into this business.

  147. Robin permalink
    December 12, 2011 9:27 pm

    Also to John,

    Have you ever been in a lawsuit? It is obvious you have not. The 100’s of thousands of dollars that would be spent just to prove what was done to me is not worth it. Neither is the years it would be dragged out in court. Only the lawyers win in a case like this. Unless several of us pulled together. But even then it would be drug out in the court system for years. It is a game that is played in the legal system. I know of people who have been in business suits against one another and I know the only winners are the lawyers. Plus I have wasted enough of my life with Team. Would rather enjoy my family.

    It does sound like you are not as naive as you claim to be. I do not have a vendetta against them. But I am obligated to tell the truth to try and prevent anyone else from suffering like our family has suffered.

  148. john gilbert permalink
    December 13, 2011 4:19 am

    First off, its obvious that some folks have the crazies. I am not Orrin or anyone else with that crew. Thats just nuts. The paranoia runs deep for some. 1million. Great post. Your words make sense in how you explained your situation. You make a point I was suggesting.It did not take you long to realize the problem with this whole plan. Being you did not want to scam people, you left. Some of the others here, did not do the same as you. They continued on, and after losing thier money, became angry.I do not understand how something of this nature can happen on such a mass scale. So many here seem intelligent. So exactly what is it that drew you in, and made you stay to such a devastating degree? It just seems that if this biz is built on greed, and lies, how in the world did it get so huge? There simply cannot be that ,many smart people, commiting financial suicide, just because they were duped. It takes too long. Some speak of long trips, and meetings and so on. Thats alot of time to reflect on what your doing. Im suggesting, that once people get on the dry side of the gravy train, reflection causes them to rien in thier greed. Live by the sword, bleed by it.

  149. das permalink
    December 13, 2011 5:36 am

    John Gilbert, I got in Team to make a difference, not greed. It’s ironic you mention the word “suicide” and “mass scale” in the same paragraph. Did you read about cults like I suggested? Orrin and Team are a cult just as Jim Jones and the People’s Temple. Read up on that. Like I said, maybe it will help you understand “Why”and “How” this happens. It’s a cult and they use mind control and most other cult tactics to get you and keep you in. If you want answers do as I suggested.

  150. December 13, 2011 5:44 am


    Just my humble opinion

    I agree with the content of your questions, not the rude way you demand the answers or describe the contributors here! The way you write does not rule out that you are here with a double agenda!

    Ex-members again and again explain on this site they were brainwashed drones in the MLM/LIFE/TEAM game, and are sorry that they dragged other people in! They were in a system that supported and at the same time controlled them; they believed they were doing the right thing! And although people were blinded by the proposed MLM opportunity, it does not necessarily qualify them (as you put it) as greedy people even if they stayed in a longer time, and were in a higher position.

    You write that the people who continued with the business become angry only after losing their money. Suppose, you have built a business in a few years, put in a lot of work also thinking you are also helping other people making money, the ideal win-win situation. Then the business is taken away from you because the contracts allows the real owners to do that, and you are seen by all the other members as an outcast. After the initial shock of losing your business and your supposed friends, I think reality sinks in and people only then are willing to see the scam they have been involved in. They then realize they have been cheated and although not conscientiously have cheated others themselves.

    You understand 1MillionLIfES story, who saw through the scam right away. But 1MillionLIfES’ friend apparently is not seeing through the scam. Does that make the friend greedy? You do not read that 1MillionLIfES is judging the friend but sees the friend as a victim whose eyes need to be opened!

    Ex-members who tell their story here should not be judged by people like you. They are probably the only ones with enough threatening knowledge about the MLM/tool business to help to get rid of these kind of scams.

  151. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 6:36 am

    Thanks ME you said it perfectly. And I agree with Das. Team uses powerful thought reform, so one cannot even see iconsistencies while you are all in. I thought I was making a difference, never did I think I was greedy. Unless you think wanting to own my “own business”, wanting good medical insurance, wanting my time back to spend with my kids, and wanting a basic decent life for my family makes me greedy? I wasn’t in it for mansions, cars or planes. I thought it was a win, win situation and that anyone could win at it if I could because I was just an average joe. I believed I was making a positive difference in the world. I found out later it was all based on a bunch of lies and half truths that were told over and over and repeated, based on blind trust. All of this after years of leaving my family night after night and promoting their crap! Your dam right I am angry! Who wouldn’t be.

  152. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 6:53 am

    I based my actions on their deceptive lies. I thought I joined a group that was making a difference and bringing back Christian values to our country as well as helping people earn their time back, offering great friendships and a positive environment. I didn’t join a group that promoted it was using deceptive practices and information to scam people out of their time and money, lying about things including the information they used to recruit me with, and lying about recieving passive,pipeline income for the work you did.
    I AM sorry for trusting them. They used a bait and switch game and didn’t deliever what they promised in their recruitment, and of course I am mad as hell at the years of my life that were stolen from me and my family under their thought reform program, b.s. tactics and lies. I am mad as hell about the damage to my health, finances, career, and relationships as well as the years of emotional anguish this lie of a business and it’s aftermath has caused me and my family! Anyone in our shoes would be livid!

  153. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 7:01 am

    John Gilbert- the part you are not gettiing is, if you are a leader on Team you have no time to reflect on anything. You literally do not have time to live you are so busy and at the same time the system strips you of your ability to critically think. You also have no outside information, only information that your upline who is profiting off of you, is feeding you . No tv, radio, music, movies, newspapers, outside friends etc. You are isolated in the group. John you really should read Combatting Cult Mind Control to not offend the victims here with your ignorant comments.

  154. das permalink
    December 13, 2011 7:20 am

    Awesome posts Webelieved!

    For those of you who think my example extreme, it really isn’t. I know team members so devoted and loyal to Orrin that they would follow him to their deaths just as those in Jonestown. No human should have that kind of control over their followers. You tell me Team isn’t a cult!

  155. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 8:27 am

    In my studies of cults, opinions and experience once one gets off the “kool-aid” the brainwashing wears off over time but it can take years and may take a counselors help. The amount of psychological damage done by the system is equal to the amount of time and depth of involvement in the group. Someone who was only involved a few months and read a few books isn’t going to have as traumatic effect as someone who was all in for years and high up in the heirarchy. Some may actually may feel the group was great and not harmful. Because of course they hadn’t given up their identity to the group and were not all in.
    A person who fronted for the group in front of thousands, was abused by leaders and their games, gave up their identity, left their true friends, were betrayed by their other so called friends in the group, lost their money, lost their retirement, gave up years in a career, gave up their jobs, lost years of fellowship with their kids and loved ones, lost the ability to trust, lost the ability to trust themselves, had their faith used to decieve them etc. has a lot more to deal with. He is going to be alittle more than angry and frankly has every right to be!

    * Of course I need to state the above are all my opinions and experiences from years of experience with Team and Orrin Woodward and Co.

  156. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 8:39 am

    If someone is in the postition of the last person and is hurting, save yourself some time and heartache by finding a counselor that specializes in trauma and treating PTSD or a counselor that specializes in cults and abusive relationships. There is a lot of trauma associated coming out of destructive groups and relationships and many counselors and pastors are not trained in this area. Also read up on cults as much as you can.
    Combating Cult Mind Control,Captive Hearts Captive Minds, All That Glitters is not God, Steve Hasan, Rick Ross, Singer,Lifton and many others.
    Let us know what you find that is helpful.

  157. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 8:47 am

    Robin- Isn’t it funny how when people realize they can talk to each other they find out the truth and the rest of the story! 🙂 If their business and leaders were as great as they claim there wouldn’t need to be any secrets!

  158. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 13, 2011 8:50 am


    Sorry..some how I missed that very important detail! That is as low as they can go.I am assuming this transpired within the first 6 months into MV, which unbenounced to us the PC had free reigns to pull off their wicked little greedy plan to benefit the few?

    You would have thought they only had a their get them in NOW….thousands on our team in a week? This would have kept them off the MV compliance radar, not that it matter but MV was allowing them to do this for a certain time. Still MV should have been seeing the thousands of red flags and all the sponsor changes…how would they not notice. Or perhaps they expected it because Orrin had just raided Amways downline and was in the middle of a lawsuit that someone needed to help them out with. They couldn’t have the ‘same’ line of sponsorship…this would be too obvious wouldn’t it?

    Robin, your story and many thousands of others is heartbreaking. If they are justifing their actions because they needed to avoid the contract law of Q/A then it just proves they believe the end justifies the means. They will eventually pay the price for all the lives they have damaged and I mean in a Big way. I too feel the way you do and am grateful we are gone and the fog has cleared after years and years of believing these guys had integrity, honest, Godly, were ‘best friends’. etc…To find out they are nothing more than cons who opperate within a cult and create the cult personality.

    And no one until they walk in our shoes will have a clue but are quick to judge without facts or have been there. It is the same way with any con job…just study Bernie Madoff and his victims of his crime, do the smart guys call those people stupid, too? Only with this con job add the cult enviroment, with the indoctrinating and mind numbing techniques and you have LieF, wrapped up in a tiddy package that they promise will grant your every wish and change your life in every area where their is a hidden agenda that they try and protect like it is the holy grail but then their comp plan contradicts that at least 95% will never make a profit?

    Dangerous and destructive but provides multi-millions for the top 7 families! Orrin said somewhere, he was expecting the team to make 100 million dollars! And then you have the smart guys that of course would never fall for nor can figure out why getting rid of a few doesn’t mean squat except add to the bottom line of the PC.So, Robin none of us are stupid, we were deceived by some very greedy cons that have all the information they withold from others and that manipulated us; that prey on the deepest needs of others. Very sick and twisted, but until you leave you don’t recognize the subtle mind control enviroment along with way too many other dyamics to explain in one post. That is why there is thousands of comments on here.

  159. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 13, 2011 9:01 am

    Great post from an outsiders perspective. It amazes me the difference between two outsiders. One who comes with searching for their answers in a respectful way and the other who comes in like a lion with nothing but judgement. I understand there is no way anyone could completely understand all of this nor do we expect people to blindly believe. But we do deserve respect.

    As for John, who would not questions his motives. He states he was searching out MV because someone had contacted him, then he comes on in a very defensive way with no intentions of getting in an MLM or listening to cds. So, anyone would question then why is he here treating others in a very disrespectful way when he has no interest in any of this. I have one thing for John, everyone here has given you information for you to learn and get your questioned answered but you don’t like the answers nor do you show the respect to even answer others questions to you. So, why John are you really here? You say none of this makes sense, it wouldn’t make sense and is ‘crazy’ but that’s point John, you have a lot of studing and fact finding to do before you will even scratch the suface of what we have been through. The only way you could possibly understand it all is walk in our shoes.

    John another people will treat you the way you treat them.

  160. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 9:13 am

    Robin- I second your last two posts. My family has suffered enough and so have I. My kids already missed too much. I am also not sure I want to waste my precious time or more of my health on Orrin and Team. He will get his from the Lord. But…… if anyone feels strongly and has a way to push the issue, I would consider changing my mind. 🙂
    No Team For me- I agree on the documents. I too have documentation and have stored it in various locations. Just in case……… And if anything happens to me there are others that will tell the story. I don’t think Orrin wants to open the hornets nest, although sometimes i wish he would kick the nest a little harder……….

  161. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 9:55 am

    Definitions of categories of cults written almost verbatim as I believe they relate to Team, from Captive Hearts Captive Minds. Parts of the definitions that do not apply in my opinion to Team were left out. Ie: paramilitary training left out under Political Cults.

    Commercial Cult: Sustained by belief in attaining wealth, and power, status, quick earnings. The leader, who is often overtly lavish, assserts that he has found the “way.” Some commercial cults are crossovers to political and religous cults since they are based on family values, morals, good health, and patriotism. Members are encouraged to participate in costly and lengthy seminars, and to sell the group’s “product” to others. Techniques used: deceptive sales techniques, guilt and shame, peer pressure, financial control.

    Political Cult: fueled by the belief in changing society, revolution,over throwing the enemy or getting rid of evil forces. The leader professes to be all knowing and all powerful. Often the group uses coded language and has ritualized practices. Members consider themselves an elite cadre ready to go to battle. Techniques used: reporting in on one another, guilt, fear, long hours of indoctrination.

    Some other techniques mentioned under other categories that In my opinion also apply are :confession, criticism and reporting in on others, intimidation, secrecy, fear, self blame, dependency, isolation, intense training sessions, elitism, confessions session and long hours of indoctrination.

  162. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 10:08 am

    Confession would occur when giving a seminar, speaking at a pv party etc. as well as mentoring upline. Isolation comes in the form of not listening to tv, radio, friends, critics, newspaper and so busy you get no other feedback besides from the group which then makes you dependent on them and their thinking. Long hours of indoctrination from being
    in/ doing recruiting meetings constantly, seminars, tues opens, listening to cds and reading books that prop up the groups agenda. Reporting in on others happens all the time behind the scenes. Nothing is held private, everyone is encouraged to talk upline about everyone, and everything, even private issues. Intimidation happens as well, the higher up you get. They also use rewards and punishment to get the behavior they want out of followers. Everything good is attributed to the group, it’s leaders and their doctrine and everything bad is your fault, or a character issue in you.There is alot of self blame taught and guilt and shame are used constantly to get you to conform your behavior. Religious and Political beliefs are used to back the whole deal up.

    * These comments are from my opinions and experience affliliated with Team and Orrin Woodward and co.

  163. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 10:17 am

    “A key to determining the degree of control the group exercises over its members is the amount of time spent in mind-altering activities- prayers, chanting, meditation, group rituals, psychdrama,and confession (cd listening,meetings, mentoring, etc.) for these activities effectively isolate members from the oustide world. A survey of 400 ex-cult members from 48 different groups reveal and average time of 55 hours per week spent in activities of this type………”- Captive Hearts Captive Minds.

    I would say we did a lot more time then that!

  164. webelieved permalink
    December 13, 2011 10:30 am

    John here is part of a comment I posted over on teamscam, it may help you see how anyone can be decieved by this group.

    134.webelieved Says:
    December 12th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    sheryl- The numbers may be increasing, because they use deception to build it. They promise passive, residual, ongoing income. They promise that if you build this business you will get your time back. They also speak so highly of people they idolize and worship them.

    The meetings are a set up. Unknown to the new person, most people in the room have been sitting there for years and are clapping,smiling etc. hoping someday their ship will come in. Most have never made a profit. The group pressure is very powerful. They laugh, you laugh etc. Everyone is taught to never say anything negative about anyone or anything even if it is the truth, especially not in front of the new person. They use what cult experts call love bombing on people, creating instant “friendships” and a feeling of belonging. They will do favors for the prospect in the begining, like drive them to a tuesday meeting, or do a houseplan or help them contact people, than the new person feels they owe them something. (when you leave or stop buying their stuff, almost all won’t even speak to you) In the meantime at the meetings the speaker makes a ton of half true statements, they throw around a bunch of money numbers and dreams a person may like to have.(If the person is shown the business in their home the speaker will look around and use the information to bring out a dream. Let’s say you have fish on the wall, they will talk about fishing. They are taught to ask a lot of questions to steer you towards what your dreams, then they use it to manipulate you to get in. They also will use your personality traits against you.They are trained to recognize personalities. ie: If you are strong headed they will say “this business isn’t for everyone” challenging you and taking the cookie away.) They will Talk about how they are going to change the country and about God. They talk about how team/life has made them a better person. Before the group gets no credit after the group their life is great. They are taught to give the prospect cds that fit their personality or situation specifically, hence they feel oh God must have sent this for me. for instance if you are a plumber they will give you a cd from a plumber. It sounds GREAT on the outside. Then the prospect is told to listen to three or four cds a day and effectively begins to brainwash themselves. Those cds will have stories of others overcoming something and how life/team saved them. This is called confession. The office tells the speakers to only talk about anything that the team has been responsible for helping you with. Don’t say my mom taught me etc. SO people think this is their ticket. THey start talking weird because they are brainwashed or under thought reform.

    They won’t listen to anyone outside the group because they are taught right in the first meeting, if you are not in the group, you will end up dead disabled or broke. You are trading time for money and why would someone take advice from someone who doesn’t have the fruit on the tree?

    They are using the bible to get people in and keep them in. They have a pastor speak at their Major conventions and they give believers cds from pastors! Funny they don’t tell anyone that their own pastor of years,over a decade, Pastor Dickie out of MI left team and Orrin! He was on tons of cds promoting them at one time. That should tell us all something. They also don’t tell you the higher up you go in the heirarchy the more you will be required to conform your personality. Or that you will not have any time with your family if you are really building the business. Or that your mind will be altered. Or that they can take your business whenever they want, for no reason according to their own policies and procedures. That you will have no legal recourse ever and will be tied up by their contract for the rest of your life, even if you quit or they take your money. also in the p&P’s.

    Also passive income is a lie. They took mine without a phone call. They are liars. their contract is disturbing as well and some of their own big leaders filed bankruptcy and had their property in foreclosure only a few months ago.

    * the above are my opinions and experiences with team.

  165. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 13, 2011 1:27 pm

    Webelieved~ Great post!


    I could not agree with you more on all you have said. Those of us who have lived this illusional deceptive lie and experience, know full well people on here are geniune and telling the truth; without question.

    I also agree with you on the Dickie family. Bobbie alone could take him down and I wish he would! I would not want to be O living in fear everyday of his life…wondering…waiting….anticipating…the day of his reckoning; because it will come. He knows in his gut…it is just a matter of time.

    What must it be to like to live your entire life based on a lie, knowing the tens of thousands of lives you took from and continue to you and your cronies, knowing full well you are blatantly giving false hope to thousands upon thousands and deceiving (giving hope) to them for any kind of financial future other than many loses, so you can rake in multi-millions for you and your good ole boys club; so they can store up your treasure on earth.

    He is no doubt living in fear of what he has done and knows that it will eventually catch him and his fall guys and all will be revealed as with every scam and con artist..the clock is ticking.

    Who knows, just my opinion, but O himself knows exactly what he has done, illegal or otherwise and what he is hoping will never be brought to light by God and I believe he is ‘banking on’ no one will bring him down including any organization that could bring criminal charges and potentially put him behind bars for a long time.

    As with every wrong doing, you will pay a price and it will be exposed. Eventually you do get caught. What do you think, will O then play the victim or could this possibly humble him? I am not optimistic anything will humble him. Bernie got knocked down a notch but not completely from what I have seen and he lost his entire family over it!

    Orrin is certainly not above reproach and if all the financial books, and all the hidden little things they think they have gotten away with…the skeltons in their closet…find their way out. I believe He and others will eventually be caught, no matter how smart or slick they think they have covered their tracks. I would never trade my life for their’s no matter how much money and ‘things’ they have!

    You cannot run and hide forever.

  166. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 13, 2011 1:38 pm



    I do have much respect for Bobbie and know what he has done for the Team…and if he ever needs help taking O out…lol..we would do everything in our will power to help him!

  167. john gilbert permalink
    December 13, 2011 3:05 pm

    Dan Collins, I fight fire with fire.Wow, Im scared. Hey heres one, how about countering with a bit of intelligence, rather than a fool hearty adolescent swing and a miss. Dont be angry at me for your station in life. Your the one who seems to dwell in self pity and negativity, by hammering away on a site like this, geared at one person. I find it amazing, that grown people would actually transfer so much of their ineptitude to one guy. How in the world, can a guy stop someone from becoming a General in the army? Jim Jones? I will say this, if Orrin’s clan is actually a cult, which so many like to use an excuse to swear away thier weaknesses, then he is doing the world a great service by sucking up the genetically inferior from the general population. This is amazing. There are people who wish to look me up from my IP address.LOL, if you do, please stop by. This is great. By the way, I find a few of you to be , considerate people. I wish you no harm and hope things change for the better in your lives. Dan, try to lighten up, your burden has got to be heavy brother.

  168. brent hansen permalink
    December 13, 2011 4:13 pm

    yeah Dan…knock it off you big bully! Oh yeah, who the hell is Dan???

  169. Mike Collins permalink
    December 13, 2011 4:46 pm

    yeah, who’s dan?

  170. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 13, 2011 4:47 pm

    Dan who?

  171. December 13, 2011 4:52 pm

    I believe @John Gilbert is referring to Mike, in his latest response.

  172. Robin permalink
    December 13, 2011 5:15 pm

    Me: Awesome post! That is exactly it.

    We believed, Speak, and Das: great posts. yes to all of it. Yes it is funny that when you are out and start sharing stories how much more you realize you were deceived. I agree. None of us were stupid. Greed was not a part of it or we would still be in the business. It truly was making a difference and getting the time back with our families.

    I just don’t want to waste any unnecessary time and energy on someone who is so judgemental and not looking for the truth. Everything he says could be reversed on him and asked the same of. For example, is he stupid because he can’t imagine how this could happen to people with intelligence? Just like an example of Bernie was made in an earlier post. Those people were not stupid people. It is what it is.

    Life is too short to argue. My story is what it is as is the rest of us on here. If you don’t like what you read then move on. This is for those who are researching to decide for themselves if this business is for them. My job is to tell them my story to help them make an educated decision for themselves. Not to judge them by their choices.

    Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! Christmas is my favorite time of the year! I love it!! Special time with family and celebrating our Savior’s birth.

  173. Finally permalink
    December 13, 2011 6:05 pm

    “There are probably only a handful of leaders in the country that could have handled the ridiculous leadership challenge (lawsuits, leaving our former company, etc) that hit the TEAM late 2007 through 2009, so I am thankful for everyone’s efforts to handle the task. However, when in 2009 the office cost-per-field-revenue was five times higher than previous benchmarks, I realized I needed to act fast or the TEAM would capsize. Many of our field leaders had lost 2/3’s of their income and as the leader of TEAM, both the office and the field, it was ultimately my responsibility to fix it.” Orrin Woodward on his blog

    This is the great lie to cover up Bobbie Dickie Leaving the team office and make no mistake he WAS NOT LET GO, HE RESIGNED ALONG WITH MANY OF HIS TOP GUY”S, HIS BROTHER IN LAW INCLUDED. Orrin did not fire him or let go due to team profit sharing. If you think about it when the fields profit sharing went south is the same time of the lawsuit. Two things at play here. First the numbers were way, and I mean way down, second Orrin started using team money to pay for the lawsuit. I know this because our up line told us and even shined, a lot, about their profit sharing being down. so for Orrin to say this and post it is only to hide the truth, again. He is lying about why they cut at the office. If it was 20, most left with Bobbie. My up line crucified Bobbie’s character along with his brother’s. I am positive the only information they got was from their PC who got his from O. I emphatically encouraged him to talk with Bobbie and get his side of the story. After all isn’t that what Orrin preaches……Seek first to understand….except for when you do not want to know the truth. Orrin preached from stage that he would drain all of his bank accounts to fight Q on principle……..another lie……..he drained the Team accounts, again because all did not go as planned. They got hammered for 25 million in the lawsuit judgement but let’s not forget the massive legal bills that probably came close to the judgement. So of course Orrin went into damage control mode, again when you take someone on on principle you attack his character, which he did with Bobbie. A friend on Tim Marks team spoke with Tim and he claimed that Bobbie was incompetent. I would like to ask the PC at what point did Bobbie become incompetent? Was it the last major he was at when the edified him as the best ceo in the country? Or the 5 years prior he ran the team office and as they always claim, that he was the best at what he does . Never once did they claim he was not up to the job…….It is funny that my up line said that orrin did not watch the office and the money flow as much during the lawsuit………YEA Right………Never would he not watch the golden goose, that was extremely stupid for this cat to say………. I also would like to ad that some of the PC are absolutely spineless…..they know exactly what Orrin did and followed like lemmings all in the name of their paychecks. They don’t even have the guts to stand up against orrin for what they know is right. Yes, the men of team are spineless in these situations. Of course they all geek each other up and blow smoke up each others skirts but when it comes right down to it they protect their paychecks over their principles.

    It is a shame, but this is how I and many others who once admired these guys. Orrin talks about how no other leaders could have made it through the lawsuit…..Not saying much seeing that they turned on so many that saw what they were doing was futile. Haugens, Florence, Crawford all of these men just months before the lawsuit were the best leaders in the world according to Orrin, then for some reason he compared them to Judas…….That seems to happen a lot to Orrin………maybe it is time he looks at the common denominator in all of his relationships…………Again I am not delusional to think that they will read any of this and have a change of heart, their fate is sealed in profit. But I do hope others at least look at the other side of the stories and not just take a PC members word because he is a PC……..As far as I am now concerned that ring might as well have been bought in a pawn shop……..Darkangelo has one and he filed bankruptcy, how can that be???? Jim Martin has one and from what I understand probably doesn’t even qualify as RT anymore and if he does it is because he was given part of team TNT. And the cat is out of the bag on Dan Hawkins….might as well sign him up for welfare because that is what he got, welfare, something he didn’t earn to make him look better than he is so PC could give hope to others. How sick is that? Gift someone a PC ring to give others hope….LOL

  174. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 13, 2011 7:21 pm


    Thanks for the laugh out load experience! That was one of the best post I have seen in a while..ahahahahaha. Amthrax ought to make a post out of it! I love the you might as well sign Dan Hawkins up for welfare; that is hilarious but true and the other side of the coin it is sad they would stoop so low to fake it to get others to believe a false lie! While others are out busting their butts wondering what is wrong with them! Nothing you are in a business designed to fail, it has nothing to do with work ethic nor earning it at least now that is the case!

    How do they sleep or stand in front of thousands and lie?

  175. Emily permalink
    December 13, 2011 9:29 pm

    I don’t know the Dickies, but asked someone why they left. The response I received was quite unbelievable. It was stated that the family had joined another networking company. Since it would be a conflict of interest to have someone speak on the TEAM stage from another networking company, Pastor Dickie would no longer be invited to speak. My first thought was, to my knowledge the Dickies never built the business. Why on earth would they leave to build something else? Something doesn’t add up. Does anyone on here know if this is true?

  176. webelieved permalink
    December 14, 2011 4:15 am

    I vote we ignore the obnoxious, rude person called John Gilbert. He’s like a pesty mosquito with a hidden agenda.

    Emily- The Dickies and staff were up close and personal with Orrin and all the rest. I could only imagine what they must know being a part of all the meetings at the team office etc.
    I am sure you were told a line of bull.
    Unfortunately Orrin and company slander anyone who leaves with a wisper campaign, because it’s a bad reflection of Orrin’s leadership that the Dickies and the rest resigned. If they publically stated the real reason they left, I would guess many more would quit. Orrin needs to cover his rear plain and simple. I call b.s. on that story.

  177. john gilbert permalink
    December 14, 2011 5:17 am

    LOL, yeah, I would ignore me too. Sometimes, when the Pot is busy calling out the Blackness of the Kettle, it would do the angry little Pot well, to realize he speaks from his sooty position acquired from dancing on the same set of flames as the now loathed Kettle.

    Educate me please. I have read a few good posts above. But it amazes me, that people would repeatedly come to a place dedicated to the denigration of one person and or organization. Mosquito.LOL

  178. Finally permalink
    December 14, 2011 5:42 am

    Right on Speak!! That is the part that hurts most people, the wondering what is wrong with them……..Nothing!! The business was way easier to build with Q, that is why there were so many true triple 100’s. Now you have former triples barley turbos…….so much for “B” type business. It is the lies about performance and outcomes that is so wrong. All to protect profit. If they were truly worried about helping people they would fix what is wrong with the business…….and rest assured they have not intention of that.

  179. humiliated permalink
    December 14, 2011 5:56 am

    John, I am not sure what you aren’t getting. These people were brought in by friends, family or people at their churches. They TRUSTED the people that got them in. Most of them had never been involved with a CULT/MLM so did not have a frame of reference to rely upon. In order to understand their experience, you MUST understand cults and how they operate. Do you?

    The only mistake that these people made was to WANT TO BELIEVE & BELONG TO SOMETHING BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES. This is human nature. Little did they know that they were signing up for a huge mind f*ck disguised as business opportunity dressed up in faux-Christianity. It is a slow and insidious process that you don’t realize is happening until you are “in”. Then begins the process of cognitive dissonance that Brent speaks about often.

    They all accept responsibility for having believed all of the lies because they were TRUSTING not STUPID. Most of them stayed silent for a while after they “got out” because they could not quite understand what they had just experienced, were humilated and confused. Then slowly, the fog begins to lift and they begin to seek the truth about what they had endured. They may get counselling (BTW there are counsellors that specialize in dealing with the emotional fallout of belonging to a commercial cult like this) or come here and begin reading similar stories. Their shame begins to diminish and they write a little bit at first, then more and more! This empowers them and they decide they want to help others not make the same mistake they did.

    If you aren’t even willing to try to understand the cult psychology behind what makes TEAM and other MLMs operate, then you aren’t going to understand how these people have indeed been victimized. Your constant attacks isn’t going to change that, I think that someone said it is like blaming a rape victim for what she was wearing at the time of the rape.

    Bottom line is these people continue to write and tell their stories because they are being responsible human beings and warning about others about this cult. TEAM/LIEF isn’t an organization my friend, it is a crime and this is a “block watch” program.

  180. john gilbert permalink
    December 14, 2011 6:12 am

    @ humiliated. So it is basically a cult, adorned in a business opportunity wrapper. Ok, I see where your coming from. I guess because I could never see myself caught up in a cult, it makes it tough to figure out how people could get duped for so long. If its mind control, well, thats way beyond my experience and ability to comprehend. But then again maybe thats an advantage to being hard headed. Plus, when outside, I do wear Tinfoil as a hat to keep the bad rays out. That was meant as humor:)

  181. brent hansen permalink
    December 14, 2011 6:28 am

    @John Gilbert

    Product- based pyramid schemes are white collar crime. This is way deeper and goes way further than most people can understand. There are literally lobbyists in Washington D.C. that are paid to keep the feds off the back of this industry. We are talking about dirty politicians, corrupt judges, campaign contributions and the whole ball of wax.

    The people on this blog are here to pluck the few who would learn from the clutches of those who would grab their hard earned dollars. I consider these people patriots because it is grass roots efforts like what can be witnessed here that have the power to turn tides.

    We are not here crying over spilled milk, we are here to offer the TRUTH, which is something you will never hear nor learn from the leadership of a product-based pyramid scheme. This truth is resounding, and will continue to help those who will listen, contemplate and learn. But for the arrogant and brainwashed, the posts within this blog will only stir contention. You see, they have already been victimized by their own cognitive dissonance, and to acknowledge that would cause major internal strife.

    These businesses appear to be legit simply because they hide behind the law. My acquaintance, a franchise/mlm attorney told me a couple of years ago that out of 140 MLM clients, they are all basically illegal pyramids. They pay him to make sure they come as close to the line as possible without crossing it.

    If you really want to understand John there are plenty here who would help you know the truth, but if you are here to have your ego stroked you have come to the wrong place.

  182. December 14, 2011 6:30 am


    “”But it amazes me, that people would repeatedly come to a place dedicated to the denigration of one person and or organization””

    No, I am here because as long as it is not clear which MLM-business can be really profitable for the people who start at the bottom no one should even consider to step in and start a business this way. OW is just one bad example in the twilight zone of MLM/tool businesses. I strongly belief that MLM doesn’t help people to reach their goal of financial independence, it will only make them more dependent, sadly enough, not only financially.

    Why are you so worked up about the reactions written here? You write “educate me”, but it is clear to me that you do not want to learn anything! What is it that you want to read? It is also clear that you blame these ex-members, you see them as greedy, and they are to blame themselves because they have cheated so many people. You do not want to hear their explanations, so what is it that you want from them?

    I might seem amazing to you that they come here to tell their painful story to warn other people and maybe as part of a healing process, but what amazes me more is that someone like you, an outsider, still comes here to question and criticize these people. First, you try to be impartial and ask legitimate questions, then the insults come, and in your latest post you even start to defend an organization and its leader you claim to know nothing about.

    However, I do believe that your contributions help prospects to stay away from a MLM-business. You give contributors the chance to analyze your entries and write about it, and it will teach people always to question someone’s motives. In a strange way your insults are supporting the goal of this website; to warn people of the shady MLM-businesses, and always keep their guard up, because you really cannot tell what the real agenda of a person is!

  183. What the??? permalink
    December 14, 2011 7:45 am

    @1MillionLIfES from December 12, 2011 7:02 pm
    Thank you so much for telling your story. I have never been in TEAM/LIFE/MV (never even been to a meeting), but I have a friend who is. I recently starting reading this site just to learn about TEAM/LIFE and to hopefully glean some knowledge I can use to help my friend. I got sucked into another MLM a few years ago, and as I read your stories, I see so many comparisons between the two organizations. It is embarrassing to think of all the wasted time and money I spent with MLM. And, to think of all my friends who I talked to about it. My friend has had several large life challenges to deal with in the past few years, so I can see how he got sucked into it. It makes me sad that groups like this prey on people who are down in life.

  184. webelieved permalink
    December 14, 2011 8:41 am

    What the ???- You are exactly right. Prey on people who are down in life or prey on people who have high values and aspirations and fall for their lies.

  185. What the??? permalink
    December 14, 2011 9:06 am

    This is about the other MLM I was in, but my ex got his brother involved to “make money”. His brother had serious health problems and was living on disability checks. I don’t even want to know how much money his brother sunk into this MLM business (money he absolutely didn’t have) thinking it was his avenue to “financial freedom”. This business had similar characteristics – there was the weekly training call, the Tuesday meeting, the Saturday meetings (which sometimes were all day/all weekend and required hours of travel). I never understood how you actually had time to “work” the business – it took a monumental amount of time just to go to the trainings and meetings. This was “freedom” – I worked a regular job during the day then feel obligated to do all this other MLM stuff in the evening. I don’t think so!!!!

    I so appreciate all of you being open on this site. As bad as the MLM I was in was, this LIFE/TEAM thing appears to be ALOT worse!

  186. webelieved permalink
    December 14, 2011 9:14 am

    What I have found through the past few years is SOME people who claim they are Christians, claim they are men of integrity, claim they are leaders….. will do whatever it takes to to keep their riches! Including lie, cheat, decieve and steal. Some will even use God to do it.

  187. webelieved permalink
    December 14, 2011 9:23 am

    What the ???- I love how you saw the freedom thing was a lie! The same in Team, we had no freedom, no time. We were following their supposed proven system and we were getting results BUT we had to kill ourselves 6 days a week and it took years to see a small profit. We were gone till all hours of the night and morning.

  188. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 14, 2011 12:23 pm

    **News Flash**

    Here is a public acknowledgement from a Salt Lake City Tribune newspaper article Vogel found.

    Thank You Vogel!!!!! 🙂

    Well. well… is a more than interesting article written about MV which makes a statement about Orrin Woodward and his alleged 3 MILLION DOLLAR loan given to him by Monavie..just given to HIM without having to pay it back if he met the recruiting distributor goals were met? This couldn’t be why get them in NOW occured and all the other malicious and criminal and unethical things happened in the registration process…could it??!

    It is now Publically reported from the newspaper!!!! Forgive my ignorance but how is it a loan if you don’t have to pay it back, oh that is right unless he didn’t meet the quota of the recruiting distributor goals according to the paper..

    Here is what it states: the link is under Vogel’s comments that I copied and pasted you can get the full article there!!!! It is worth the read and should open the eyes of the blind followers who have been lied to so many times!

    Quote: ” Another was former top Amway distributor Orrin Woodward, who received a $3 million loan from Monavie he didn’t have to repay if he met certain recruiting distributor goals, according to a lawsuit Amway filed against MonaVie in 2008 that was settled last year.”

    What now Orrin, how will you lie and spin this?

    What will he do with this article? Will he deny it…try and sue the paper? Will he continue to say he isn’t in it for the money and MV was the best busniess for ‘everyone’? Oh how much you cared about others Orrin and your BS ‘bench marking study.’ In my opinion…You are a disgrace to society….it is obvious you ‘moved’ to MV for YOUR monetary needs and gain!!!

    And you seriously want people to believe your complete pile of dung that you are not in it for the MONEY? Seriously? Really? You think People are that stupid or were you just hoping this skelton wouldn’t pop out of your closet that has more skeltons than a grave yard!!!

    You are being found out on a daily basis and the pieces are all falling into view so the unsuspecting and uniformed can ‘see’ for themselves, your true motives, just who you really are and how much you have lied to all of us….

    Vogel says:

    December 14, 2011 at 8:58 am

    Dallin Larceny and Monavie got hammered this week in the Salt Lake Tribune:

  189. December 14, 2011 1:50 pm

    I wrote a dedicated post about this here. Please leave your replies there instead of this post.

    @Speak – can you copy and paste your comment there for us?

  190. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 14, 2011 3:17 pm

    NO problem Amthrax…and thank you for serving this community. 🙂

  191. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 14, 2011 5:35 pm

    Humiliated, Brent and Me~

    Excellent posts..thanks for yet more concise understanding and support. 🙂 I do have to agree with Mike about the bullsh*t meter and the settings being set on the highest frequency for all of us. This is what John doesn’t not know about us. We don’t fall for BS and have had years of training in detecting it.

    I don’t believe a person on here would believe John Gilbert doesn’t have some kind of attatchment to what he seems to be defending and calling people stupid (without knowing Orrin or being apart of it as he states)…people just don’t do that nor do they show up on a website like this out of the millions of websites as a hobby to insult, attack, question and name call… if there isn’t some kind of invested interest… that is elementary….

    What he doesn’t realize is there is some wicked smart people on here who have been more than patient but obviously it was wearing thin for some… with John, who could eat him for lunch but have decided to remain civil and seemed to be holding back.

    Just a word of caution for you John, if you are sincere (doubtful) in ‘learning’ then if I were you…I would take a different approach. 🙂

  192. john gilbert permalink
    December 14, 2011 8:15 pm

    Ahh, come on guys, on one hand you say your excellent about reading bullshit, but on the other, you fell hard for it. Wicked smart people? Eat me for lunch? Cmon guys, if I am so all that you claim, then ignore me.The problem is, I speak the truth, and deep down its knawin at some of your good folks guts. I have no intention after visiting this site, to become involved in a MLM of any nature. However, the ricochet that occured here, is that I realized how desperate and out of touch many of the people who failed, really are. So, if I were you, I would quit antagonizing me, and I would probably leave it alone. I have said my piece, but I wont back down to rude comments. So, I end up having to administer the ole’ cyber shilleliagh to a few deserving folks. I am sincere in my learning. One thing is for sure, I would no way become involved in a business venture with such negative thinking peeps.Shizzle my Dizzle.

  193. brent hansen permalink
    December 14, 2011 9:16 pm


    With all of your enlightened brilliance please inform me which ‘truth’ it is you speak cause I would really like to know. Is that truth that spews out in your posts? I don’t believe I have heard any truth yet, merely your opinion.

    Interesting enough, many of the folks here (myself included) did not fail. As a matter of fact you are having discourse with many of the top 1% of income earners in the entire NM industry.

    Let me try to get this right, correct me if your wrong.

    1. You do not understand why people get involved with MLM, right?
    2. You are much too intelligent to ever fall for these kind of gimmicks, right?
    3. You think the people here are ‘desperate’, and ‘out of touch’ right?
    4. Did you take @michael up on his offer to have a discussion outside of this thread?
    If you haven’t had that discussion with Michael, why not? Do you really want to learn
    the truth about this industry or are you here just to kick the hive?
    5. I would like to call you and have a conversation with you, would you consent?
    If so, here is my email, send me your contact info and I will call. If not why don’t you
    just go away.

  194. john gilbert permalink
    December 15, 2011 3:54 am

    This is getting interesting. Now, you guys wish for me to become the new Mentor in your life.Talk to me, come see me and so on. Sure, you can come see me. How about this, I charge you five bucks to get in,and between meetings, I will make a few CDs and get them ready for you. Hey, I know, I will take the time to reserve the local Mcdonald’s playscape, that could be your Super open or whatever you call it. I will not give a few nut jobs my phone number. My phone would be ringing off the hook for free advice.Forum rules do not dictate that I must give up private numbers. Man, some of you are acting in a manner in which you accuse these MLMs of acting.No wonder you got let go. LOL, with every post, the hypocrisy flows from a few of you. But look, lets face it, you guys are very intrigued with the obvious truths.Brent wants to call and have a conversation. Heres how it would go. “Hello, I am Brent, I got a real good offer here, and you shouldnt let it go. can we meet”? Then he would get that juice out and have me sign up and weeeeeelllll, you know the rest of the story. If this is the kind of stuff that was going on, this Orrin joker really had his work cut out for himself..

    “Smart people dont fall for Mind Control Techniques. They wear TinFoil hats to keep the bad rays out”.

  195. brent hansen permalink
    December 15, 2011 6:04 am

    Just as suspected John you are still talking out your ass just as Michael previously indicated. One way to tell if someone is really a fool is to offer a ‘real’ relationship to them, and see their response. No need to respond to you further, your arrogance and ignorance is beyond compare.

  196. john gilbert permalink
    December 15, 2011 6:47 am

    Didnt Mona Via offer you a “real” relationship? Did you not offer the same “real” relationship to the injured people you recruited.? . If what you write of is true, “Brent”,no thanks brudda.Here, this should help with the mind control issues.

  197. humiliated permalink
    December 15, 2011 7:27 am

    Oye vay. John, you aren’t even talking sense anymore. I tried to speak to you respectfully in hopes that you would respond in kind (you know, lead by example) and you have gone off on some half cocked consipiracy theory about Brent trying to sell you something and us wanting you as our mentor. huh?

    I was going to respond to your “hard headed” comment (implying that you are somehow a far superior, intelligent being than the rest of us) by saying that I am a well educated person that got sucked into MV by people that I cared about deeply. Yes, logic went out the window because I truly thought that these people would not be involved in something that would hurt me financially and emotionally. Had they been strangers, co-workers or merely acquaintances, all of my spidey senses would have kicked in, but trust played a huge part in my journey. I had never experienced anything like this in my life and did not know that this is what these scammy MLMs rely on, misplaced trust. That is NOT to be confused with a lack of intelligence or lack of common sense.

    Also, when I was doing my research on MonaVie (back when these sites weren’t as popular or active) I couldn’t find anything negative, it was all junk science (which I only LATER learned about through the likes of Vogel and a scientist friend of mine) and glowing reviews with the BBB. Not being a scientist, I couldn’t analyze the content & validity of the “experiments” so trusted what I read from a company that was supported by people I cared deeply about. See how that works?

    Brent, Mike Collins and the rest of us are ONLY interested in shutting MLMs down. Period. Get it? You can invent your half assed, untrue reasons for us all doing this but the fact remains that we ARE making a difference. I understand that you don’t trust any of us but you don’t have to because we don’t care about you, you are choosing not to listen and you are just here to create unnecessary, unsolicited and quite frankly, non-sensical drama.

    What we say resonates with many people because they recognize it as the heartfelt truth and the run quickly from TEAM and other MLMS. Enough with the John side show, let’s get back to work people!

  198. webelieved permalink
    December 15, 2011 7:35 am

    Ditto Humiliated! IGNORE the abusive jerk ! What a waste of time.

    Back on subject, I hope the reader updates us on how Melanie Morgan is doing. I am really concerned about her.

  199. December 15, 2011 10:08 am

    @John Gilbert and all – Let’s bring the conversation back to the subject of this post. Any further comments that add nothing to the conversation will be moderated.

  200. Finally permalink
    December 16, 2011 11:20 am

    . Many of our field leaders had lost 2/3’s of their income and as the leader of TEAM, both the office and the field, it was ultimately my responsibility to fix it.” Orrin Woodward on his blog

    Interesting note about this, Orrin failed to mention that the whole time he claimed that field leaders were losing 2/3 of their income he was taking a check from Team in the amount of about 500,000 a month and sometimes more……….I thought Orrin confessed from stage that he posted numbers just like everyone else and got paid based on that………..another whopper…….Also, he fails to mention that at the time the office needed to be cut was also the time that florence, haugen and crawford left which meant that the number of systems, opens and seminars that needed to be handled was dramatically reduced. It was recommended to Orrin that the staff be cut long before halstrand took over. Again Orrin pointing to himself like the savior…


    By the way I had read that info in one of the Q lawsuit blogs, I am pretty sure it is in court transcripts, not sure where that went though…got a new computer and did not transfer files.
    Just and example of Orrin claiming one thing and doing the polar opposite…….

  201. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 16, 2011 11:56 am

    500,000 a MONTH are you freaking kidding?…I am totally discusted and what a greedy despicable evil selfish move? While he was starving others families, their children and they couldn’t pay their bills and stealing the people who built their teams incomes, some only making under 1000 per month?

    How can one get their hands on the transcripts from those court hearings? The more I learn the more discusted and the lower Orrin shows his ‘love of money’, his true motives and what he really worships. All the more reason to bring the day of reckoning. Excuse me I will now throw up!

    It just continues to show how much he (doesn’t) care about anyone but his own selfish financial ill-gotten gains!!!! Laurie how do you sleep at night and conduct bible studies?

    How dare them say they are not in it for the money. Another LIE…Orrin says he wouldn’t ask anyone to do what he wasn’t willing to do. Doesn’t look like he sacrificed a penny or took the hit in his finances, looks like he gave himself a raise! He owes some people a WHOLE lot of money, without a doubt. There are no words in the English language that even come close to these people…except downright evil and greedy.

  202. Former Round Table permalink
    December 16, 2011 12:23 pm

    I hate to tell you this, but $500,000 per month WAS a huge pay cut for the selfless leadership guru. If THAT doesn’t make you sick, then I don’t know what will.

  203. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 16, 2011 1:07 pm

    Yep no doubt…Do you think he reported ALL that to the IRS or is it in some off shore bank accounts somewhere or could this be reason for the over kill on the shell corporations? Follow the money trail as the fraud experts and anyone with common sense know…that usually tells the whole and full story.

  204. Finally permalink
    December 16, 2011 6:16 pm

    Former Rt, it was a pay cut form the Q day’s, then he was taking 8 figures, that was quoted to me on a few different occasions. The fact that he claimed from stage numerous times about how he would drain all of his bank accounts to take on Q on principle is the sickest part. He cut the pay of those lining his pockets all the while telling him what a favor he was doing for them by suing Q. Tim and Chris either know all of this and are just going a long to take what Orrin gives them or they are ………..well you come up to your own conclusions on that one. But as far as being smart goes………NOT

    And yes Speak, how does Laurie sleep at night and carry on bible studies……….the only thing about her is we know from her actions who she is in her heart. This is the same woman that talked about her weight being a problem and how she exercised and dieted to lose weight. All in an effort to show everyone how disciplined she was. The truth is she begged Orrin for lipo suction and had over 14, 000.00 dollars of it done. Yep she got nipped and tucked and paraded around like she had done it all herself. The crazy thing is people would respect her if she were honest about it, but they can’t seem to grasp that……….even sadder is she put all that was sucked out back on……..great investment.

    Orrin is his biggest fan and most donated to charity all at the expense of anyone and everyone. He has attacked and ridiculed anyone that was ever close to him and left team. He can’t run and hide forever. Their are those looking to take him down legally and it is not far off I don’t think. How would that play out on DVD, Orrin being taken away on stage.

    He hurt the Morgan’s beyond belief, he allowed his PC to take away downlines of anyone that didn’t play ball, the Raatz’s, the Foos’s, his own brother in law,which was given to Hawkins. The list is long.

    One other thing because I think they have been given a pass. I went down to an open in Southfield when I was in. Lewis’s were speaking. Jackie got on stage with pants so tight…….well they were inappropriate for sure. She began talking about their lifestyle as usual but she had the nerve to talk about their “beater” car they just bought……..A Bentley…..This was at a time when the “field” was losing 2/3 of their income supposedly yet the PC can afford cars like a Bentley. It was a sad display of bragging and the exact opposite of humble. Not to mention what her wardrobe was revealing on stage…….these are what Lief calls leaders…………

  205. webelieved permalink
    December 16, 2011 7:27 pm

    WOW the Hawkins got Orrin’s brother in laws teams? Lewis’ were buying bentleys? This is DISCUSTING! Meanwhile families who did the work legitimately couldn’t pay their bills………shameful!
    Lori liposuction? We were told she was on a great diet and working out. Oh my……
    How many more lies can one take? I need to go puke!
    Thanks for confirming why I left, too many liars and fakers!

  206. webelieved permalink
    January 6, 2012 2:24 pm

    Copied from AntiAmthrax post thought it is relevant for this one.

    webelieved permalink

    January 6, 2012 11:25 am

    I recently talked to an acquaintance in Wisconsin who was in John and Melanie Morgan’s downline. He told me, after Guzzardo had already slandered the Morgans, he (George) admitted to him, he had NEVER spoken to them! He said Guzzardo avoided answering his direct questions of “did you talk to the Morgan’s about all of this?” three times before he admitted,”no!”

    I also found out someone at the Team office must have been reading emails in Team EBC subscriber’s private email accounts because George was showing one of these emails that came from someone in the Morgan’s team, to their downline ! Last year a man went to court on felony charges in MI for going into his ex- wifes email account! I wonder if the Team leaders could be in some legal trouble on that one?!!
    I sure wouldn’t be happy knowing they were reading my private emails! That is creepy and disturbing to me and I don’t have anything to hide! I would bet there are more people who could vouch for the Morgans out there.
    So much for being leaders who use conflict resolution huh Guzzardo and Orrin, you creeps!

    I am going to talk to my friend some more and see what else I can find out.

  207. webelieved permalink
    January 7, 2012 6:34 am

    More info on the Morgan story.

    By the way my friend said Orrin Woodward, John Morgan’s mentor, did not contact the Morgans before the secret meetings either! Orrin only sent an email WEEKS LATER after the damage to the Morgan’s teams and reputation had already been done and tried to use his usual guilt and manipulation tactics to imply that John Morgan was a loser! …………..What a friend!?! I would guess they have a copy of that item as well!
    So much for Orrin’s great conflict resolution skills! Funny, didn’t he recently write a book about that?! Lmao!

  208. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    January 9, 2012 12:53 pm

    I hope that Oral Woodcock, Skid Marx, George Retardo, Puppetboy Brady and all of them burn in hell for what theyve done!!!! The Great Deceiver cant keep nothing that he has done from getting out thanks to you Amthrax and everyone who contributes to this great site

  209. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 9, 2012 1:06 pm

    Major Dave~

    I 100% agree with you and am laughing histerically at your new names for the fake guru’s and PC!

  210. webelieved permalink
    January 9, 2012 3:01 pm

    Dave! Holy Smokes that is funny!

    I wanted to let everyone know I asked my friend about Melanie Morgan and was told her lukemia is being treated with a very expensive drug and she is being closely watched by her doctors. She said her and John are thankful to not be with Orrin Woodward, George Guzzardo and the Team anymore and glad to be spending quality time with their family and true friends!

    I don’t blame her, me too! 🙂

  211. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 9, 2012 4:18 pm

    Webelieved…Amen to that for the Morgans! Thanks for the update. I think everyone on here are “glad to be spending quality time with their family and true friends!”

    Does anyone else think it is obvious; how people say they are much happier AFTER they are gone from orrin & co…the Team Lief progam!!! The testimonies on here prove that!!

  212. Sailor permalink
    January 10, 2012 6:04 am

    Im out, but they did take my ssn. You think they will do anything with it?

  213. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 10, 2012 10:59 am


    I would watch your banking so that you don’t get charged for anything if they have your CC info, but I personally have never witnessed anyone’s ssn being messed with; at least they hadn’t stooped to that when we were in.

    This I know, they can’t be trusted in any other way but I don’t believe you would have to worry about your ssn. If they did anything like that, they know someone would be on their tails so fast, their heads would spin and they don’t want that….trust me.

  214. webelieved permalink
    January 12, 2012 6:45 am

    I have my profit sharing numbers ready.
    Here is how I charted them:
    Ticket Income Speaking Income
    Team 1 2 3 4 Tools Local Major Opens Seminars Total Income
    June 2007
    SYSTEM 10 12 5 3 $1,000 $200 $100 $50 $1000 $2350
    LD TIX 20 24 10 0
    MJR TIX 10 20 5 0

    I have one profit sharers’ numbers and have to make some calls to get 2-3 more. If you can please send them to Amthrax, thanks! I cannot wait to see what we find! 🙂 Right now we are trying to compare numbers to see if we can prove Orrin has manipulated the profit sharing income/ numbers, as he has been accused of here more than once. Ultimately we want to figure out if people were paid fairly based on their numbers and performance like was promoted. We will try to compare Jan 2007 – Dec 2009, if you have them. Thank you to everyone who is participating. Sharing information is the only way to expose what has been really going on in Team. You can keep your name anonymous and I give you my word that no information will be published by me, without your permission.
    I would propose Amthrax give you the same promise.

  215. webelieved permalink
    January 12, 2012 6:55 am

    I’ll try this again.

    ………………………………………………………………Ticket income…Speaking Income
    ………..Team 1……2….3… 4 ……………Tools….Local… Major… Opens….. Seminars…. Total Inc

    June 07
    SYST……… 10.. 12…. 5…. 3…………..$1,000… $200….$100…… $50……… $1000…… $2350
    LD TIX……. 20… 24…10… 0
    MJR TIX…..10 …20… 5…. 0

  216. webelieved permalink
    January 12, 2012 6:57 am

    I guess it doesn’t show up the way it is in the box. The seminars and total go across the top and 1000,2350 underneath seminars and total. 🙂

  217. webelieved permalink
    January 12, 2012 7:09 am

    Sailor- Can you tell us how they promoted the business to you? And what you were told?

    Was it something like we build communities of people. We help you improve all areas of your life in the 8 F’s? Pipeline, residual income, you don’t want to be a bucket carrier anymore, you want a pipeline income that keeps on paying? ESBI Quadrant. You want to be on the B side letting a system do the work for you? Did they show you the 45 year plan where supposedly 95% of Americans end up dead disabled or broke making a ton less money when they retire? Did they talk about how MC Donalds has a system you copy? Or your dreams and what if….what if….? Did they tell you if you sign up tonight you have someone below you? Did they take you up to the host/Speaker and he told you how great your friend was doing, the one that brought you?

    Did they tell you the rest of the story? To read their Policies and Procedures and that it says they can take your income whenever they want and you cannot take them to a court? That you are tied to their contract for life, even if you quit?
    Did they reccomend you read the P&P? Did they tell you how Team PC took their own leaders incomes away for no proven reason with no notice or just cause, and gave their teams to others? Did they tell you that everyone in the room including your friend who brought you is your competitor in the business?
    Just wondering…….

  218. Finally permalink
    January 12, 2012 10:55 am

    Speak, I am sooooooooooo much better off since we Q U I T, yep that is right I quit………exactly as I try to do with all of the damaging things in my life. We have a BUNCH more money, more time, more family time and more quality time and to boot REAL friends. Not relationships based on participation in the system aka indoctrination. I am easier to talk to because I am not always looking for an angle to contact someone. I have learned more about business since I have finally understood that Orrin and /chris are not guru’s and that they have an agenda and it ain’t helping you or me grow. Everyone of my team that left with me and every cross line I have spoken to (plenty of those) are all ecstatic they are out. Not one regrets it, zero zip zilch nada none of them. All learned something from the general principles they taught, but did not follow but most have learned what not to do. I really really hope I get cold contacted one day for team life……….that is gonna be good…LOL

  219. Finally permalink
    January 15, 2012 6:19 pm

    Okay, this is a hoot…you ready??? C’mon sit down and listen up. I spoke with some folks that got the privilege of hearing the great “o” speak…….we have all read the Morgan’s story (above) right? So I am one to believe it, whether it has been confirmed or not, it has by the way, however there is another side to the story, Orrin’s. The way he put it years ago was that the Morgans are “Nuts” “they lost it” “they are out there” Seriously?? The man that taught Orrin Team Approach is “out there”. Yes that is right, John Morgan taught Orrin team approach. orrin is no genius, not even close, he stole the credit for team approach from John Morgan. Orrin doesn’t even register on the map for his skills in building depth. He is however very good at getting folks to follow him. You have to give him credit for that…….i also must add that Hitler had the same ability so that in and by itself does not make a an a great leader or builder of leaders, which is by the way Orrin’s self professed claim to fame. If building leaders consisted of getting other people motivated to complete the work to hit a common goal then Hitler kicked Orrin’s butt……he convinced hundreds to kill Millions…….My point here is NOT that Hitler was a great leader or even that Orrin is being compared to Hitler as a person. My point is however that people give Orrin credit as a leader base on the number of people in his community that follow him and that the number in the community has very little to do with Orrin and plenty to do with leaders such as the Morgan’s, Peter’s, Wrobleski’s and others that have built relationships and gave Orrin credibility through edification. All before they found out who the true Orrin was and is. The only gift Orrin has is using good principles to accomplish less that righteous ends. If you read the Bible the Devil has the same ability. Orrin and the PC are living lies everyday. If they weren’t there would not be one story like the Morgans out there. Mike Raatz would not have had his income raped from him, nor would Ken and Denise Wrobleski been VOTED out of profit sharing even though they are responsible for their up lines success.
    These guy’s are being found out and their time is coming………..

  220. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 16, 2012 1:27 pm


    You crack me up! Looks like QRUSH(orrin) continues on. Now, the Morgan’s are “Nuts’…”Lost it”…and are “Out there”? Hmm….I thought orrin was an engineer (at least he likes to hang on to that title), even though he hasn’t been in that field for what a decade and a half? Don’t anyone would consider him nor his ‘press’ he likes to promotes as anything but useless. He ought to brush up on his skills he will probably end up begging for a job, soon.

    Sounds like he slander the Morgan’s with the same type of laughable bs, that I saw someone on here say they were told about Billy Florence…”That he was just not the same after his dad passed away”. What I read from QRUSH (orrin’s anonymous blog).. he likes to pretend like he is some Pyschiatrist, has he confused this with Engineering? Perhaps he has Pyschiatry mixed up with Professional Scammer? Which “F” would this be?

    First off for him to say that about Billy Florence is Evil, Twisted, and Heartless. Now he is using his “mlm” conning skills to say the Morgan’s are mentally ill?….Amazing. I hope he told their families…sounds like they could be dangerous, did the ‘downlines perspective’ forget to tell us all they are “NUTS”

    I wonder did you know if orrin said that to their face or just another cowardly backstabbing slander tactic.. behind their backs?..Doubt he had the guts.. No suprise, I don’t know of a leader that flushed him, that orrin himself hasn’t slandered including Pastor Dickie and his family. The guy will obviously stoop lower than a snakes belly to try and (beg, coerce, lie) ‘whatever it takes’ to desperately hang on to the people because he knows he don’t have the influence real leaders have. What do all those people he lies to do with these lies…repeat and spread…like good little bought off followers who are corrupt and have sold their souls for a worthless piece of silver.

    Your Hilter example…is so on.


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